Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
So works are"evidence" of your salvation but not "proof" of it?

Do you ever re-read what you write before you post it?



But you just said works are "evidence" of salvation. If so, then Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Moonies, etc., have evidence by the bus-load.



Again, let me ask you this question and I think it will become crystal clear for me.

Can a Christian resist doing good works?



Thank-you. And I apologize for the Voodoo doll I made of you. 😊



I agree. 👍
Works are evidence of faith. Read book of James. Faith is evidence of salvation. Read 1 John

Jimbone is not a JW or Mormon. Neither were James or John

James. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works

John By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments

And later

And this is His commandments, that we believe on the one He sent and love one another

Everyone who believes ...is born of God...
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
Works are evidence of faith. Read book of James. Faith is evidence of salvation. Read 1 John

Jimbone is not a JW or Mormon. Neither were James or John

James. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works

John By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments

And later

And this is His commandments, that we believe on the one He sent and love one another

Everyone who believes ...is born of God...
Oh and don't forget. Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith.

And the Christian Life is a race, not a momentary belief (post 456), that lasts an instant and then is swallowed the love of the world.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
11,544
4,669
113
Busman. When are you going to go forward from Romans 7 reality to Romans 8 realty?
I'm sure you meant Budman. Although he could possibly be a busman (in which case he would send you to the back of the bus).;)

Just to add my 2 cents worth, the sin nature is NOT eradicated in the believer, but at the same time it cannot have dominion over the child of God. Paul says "Sin shall NOT have dominion over you" (Rom 6:14).
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
I'm sure you meant Budman. Although he could possibly be a busman (in which case he would send you to the back of the bus).;)

Just to add my 2 cents worth, the sin nature is NOT eradicated in the believer, but at the same time it cannot have dominion over the child of God. Paul says "Sin shall NOT have dominion over you" (Rom 6:14).
Yes, it was a typo. The biggest issue I have is the idea that believing in active faith is a works salvation to some.

I agree that the sin nature is not eradicated anhilated. When it says the old man is dead, it means devoid of power and vigor, inoperative, (hey, the same way dead faith is dead) and also similar in meaning to the fact that the cross destroyed Satan's power, ie took away his dominion over us.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
Yes, it was a typo. The biggest issue I have is the idea that believing in active faith is a works salvation to some.

I agree that the sin nature is not eradicated anhilated. When it says the old man is dead, it means devoid of power and vigor, inoperative, (hey, the same way dead faith is dead) and also similar in meaning to the fact that the cross destroyed Satan's power, ie took away his dominion over us.
This is really cool, because the more I confess these truths, either verbally or in writing, the more they become reality in my life.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,822
113
What I am saying is my works are evidence, or "proof" of being saved, what that does NOT mean, and what you obviously think I am saying, is that these works PROVE my salvation, like I am saying they are the "deciding factor" in salvation.
Seriously Jim, just re-read that. Especially the highlighted parts.

Otherwise you would not make the "but Mormons do good works too, are they saved?" fallacious argument against me that has NOTHING to do with what I'm saying.
To quote you again:

What I am saying is my works are evidence, or "proof" of being saved,
See the dichotomy here?

You just have to voice we can be saved and not work?
"However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

Present tense, Jim.

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)

Future tense, Jim.

"So too, at the present time, there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works. And if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:5-6)

Present tense, Jim.

Saved by grace without works, kept saved by grace without works.

If not name me one Christian you know to be truly saved that doesn't have any works.
The Christians at Corinth who had died. Their "works" were carnal, but Paul still called them believers.

I'm going to stop using the words "proof" and "evidence" for your sake, Jim. Those seem to be bones of contention between us. Instead, I'll use the word "assurance" of salvation according to works. Doing good works gives you assurance your salvation is real - correct?

Would that definition be better? Let me know.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,822
113
The biggest issue I have is the idea that believing in active faith is a works salvation to some.
It's when there is a claim that works are "proof" or "evidence" of salvation. A Christian still has the free will to resist doing good works. As he still has the free will to disobey and sin. If that were not true, God would not have talked about the need to "chastise" His children.

That very chastisement proves one is a son or daughter.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,822
113
I do not hear the Shepard's voice in his message, and KNOW he has a wrong view on at least the old man thing.
Jim, if the "Old Man" or the "Flesh" is dead in you, then what causes you to sin?
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
It's when there is a claim that works are "proof" or "evidence" of salvation. A Christian still has the free will to resist doing good works. As he still has the free will to disobey and sin. If that were not true, God would not have talked about the need to "chastise" His children.

That very chastisement proves one is a son or daughter.
Did I ever deny this? No. You might want to check the thread "marks of true conversion" where I give multiple scriptures on what I mean. Then you will know if you are arguing with me or the scriptures
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
Seriously Jim, just re-read that. Especially the highlighted parts.



To quote you again:



See the dichotomy here?



"However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

Present tense, Jim.

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)

Future tense, Jim.

"So too, at the present time, there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works. And if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:5-6)

Present tense, Jim.

Saved by grace without works, kept saved by grace without works.



The Christians at Corinth who had died. Their "works" were carnal, but Paul still called them believers.

I'm going to stop using the words "proof" and "evidence" for your sake, Jim. Those seem to be bones of contention between us. Instead, I'll use the word "assurance" of salvation according to works. Doing good works gives you assurance your salvation is real - correct?

Would that definition be better? Let me know.
Obedience to God is evidence of faith. And sorry for butting in, I know it's not directed at me, but the answer to the last question about assurance, is PART of what I am saying at least. John said " by this we know" when speaking about the things we are talking about. So yes, that statement you made is closer to what I'm saying than what you thought I was saying before
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,822
113
Obedience to God is evidence of faith. And sorry for butting in, I know it's not directed at me, but the answer to the last question about assurance, is PART of what I am saying at least. John said " by this we know" when speaking about the things we are talking about. So yes, that statement you made is closer to what I'm saying than what you thought I was saying before

Looking back on my posting history you'll see I've always said at conversion our desires will change. We will grow to love the things we once hated, and vice-versa. And I've also always said Christians should seek to live a life pleasing to the Lord. My only contention is the idea good works are irresistible. We still have our sin nature, and can certainly choose to disobey. My other point is our salvation is settled. It was settled at the cross - the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin - past, present, and future. We can never be lost based upon our behavior after conversion.

As I like to say: A Christian can't go to hell even if they wanted to.

My biggest beef with Jim is the idea the "Old Man' or the "Flesh" is dead. The very notion is unbiblical. We will continue to struggle with our sin nature up until the day we die (or until Jesus raptures us - whichever comes first).
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
Looking back on my posting history you'll see I've always said at conversion our desires will change. We will grow to love the things we once hated, and vice-versa. And I've also always said Christians should seek to live a life pleasing to the Lord. My only contention is the idea good works are irresistible. We still have our sin nature, and can certainly choose to disobey. My other point is our salvation is settled. It was settled at the cross - the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin - past, present, and future. We can never be lost based upon our behavior after conversion.

As I like to say: A Christian can't go to hell even if they wanted to.

My biggest beef with Jim is the idea the "Old Man' or the "Flesh" is dead. The very notion is unbiblical. We will continue to struggle with our sin nature up until the day we die (or until Jesus raptures us - whichever comes first).
I never said good works are irresistable, and I have explained old man dead not meaning eradication or anhilated here and in other places

Blessings
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,374
2,507
113
As I like to say: A Christian can't go to hell even if they wanted to.
Hold your horses there.

Be consistent. Free will remember? if you can will your way in, you should be able to will your way out?

God cant violate your free will! Thats what we hear when calvinists preach God saves people and regenerates them. "bu-bu-but God cant do that because free will, they have to accept first and then..."

Well why is there no free will here? You cant have your cake and eat it too
 
Dec 28, 2016
8,914
2,597
113
Arminians, Romans 9:20ist's, Freewiller's and Anti-Calvinist's: Perpetually trying to get God off the hook for being God since the beginning of time.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Nehemiah 2
17 Then said I unto them, Ye see the distress that we are in, how Jerusalem lieth waste, and the gates thereof are burned with fire: come, and let us build up the wall of Jerusalem, that we be no more a reproach.
18 Then I told them of the hand of my God which was good upon me; as also the king's words that he had spoken unto me. And they said, Let us rise up and build. So they strengthened their hands for this good work.
BUT?
19 But when Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, and Geshem the Arabian, heard it, they laughed us to scorn, and despised us, and said, What is this thing that ye do? will ye rebel against the king?
20 Then answered I them, and said unto them, The God of heaven, he will prosper us; therefore we his servants will arise and build: but ye have no portion, nor right, nor memorial, in Jerusalem.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
Arminians, Romans 9:20ist's, Freewiller's and Anti-Calvinist's: Perpetually trying to get God off the hook for being God since the beginning of time.
Some people that are OSAS are anti calvinist. I am closer to Calvinism than some of the OSAS people that posted on here.
(I am neither Calvinist, Arminian, nor anti-Calvinist)

I believe in the security of the believer, because they are kept by the power of God through faith. I believe that continuing in the faith is a mark of a true conversion. But some think that is a "works" salvation. Calvin would not have agreed with them.
 
Dec 28, 2016
8,914
2,597
113
Some people that are OSAS are anti calvinist. I am closer to Calvinism than some of the OSAS people that posted on here.
(I am neither Calvinist, Arminian, nor anti-Calvinist)

I believe in the security of the believer, because they are kept by the power of God through faith. I believe that continuing in the faith is a mark of a true conversion. But some think that is a "works" salvation. Calvin would not have agreed with them.
Many conflate evidence of conversion with works. It still amazes me that people cannot discern the distinction between the two, but many do not know their Scripture very well.

These (evidence/works salvation) are both distinctly different, the former being biblical and the latter having nothing to do with the former. We can thank free willism/decisional regeneration for the rejection of perseverance of the saints and rejection of evidence of conversion. Not all, but many do this. Any person who rejects evidence of conversion has a lot of Scripture reading, and comprehending of Scripture ahead of them.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,822
113
Hold your horses there.

Be consistent. Free will remember? if you can will your way in, you should be able to will your way out?

God cant violate your free will! Thats what we hear when calvinists preach God saves people and regenerates them. "bu-bu-but God cant do that because free will, they have to accept first and then..."

Well why is there no free will here? You cant have your cake and eat it too
The reason, when it comes to salvation, that we cannot walk away has nothing to do with our free will, because salvation isn't based on us in the first place. It is based entirely on Christ. It is by HIS will that keeps us saved, because we gain His righteousness.

If that were not the case, people could abandon Christ - thus, losing their salvation, then choose to return - (like the prodigal son) - thus regaining salvation, then choosing again to leave....then return....then leave....etc., ad nauseam.

There is no Biblical example of a born again person losing their salvation. Either by God taking it, or a person abandoning it. None. Zero. Nada.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
The reason, when it comes to salvation, that we cannot walk away has nothing to do with our free will, because salvation isn't based on us in the first place. It is based entirely on Christ. It is by HIS will that keeps us saved, because we gain His righteousness.

If that were not the case, people could abandon Christ - thus, losing their salvation, then choose to return - (like the prodigal son) - thus regaining salvation, then choosing again to leave....then return....then leave....etc., ad nauseam.

There is no Biblical example of a born again person losing their salvation. Either by God taking it, or a person abandoning it. None. Zero. Nada.
I, like you, reject the doctrine of repeated/multiple regenerations. There is only one new birth, though a child of God may need a few or many realignments over the course of their Christian Life. I know there are times that I have either fallen or perhaps just gotten a little out of alignment and the Lord corrects me in the case of the latter and had restored me in the case of the former.

I'm not sure anyone is advocating multiple new births here, though. Maybe, but I haven't understood anyone to be saying that
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
869
113
Many conflate evidence of conversion with works. It still amazes me that people cannot discern the distinction between the two, but many do not know their Scripture very well.

These (evidence/works salvation) are both distinctly different, the former being biblical and the latter having nothing to do with the former. We can thank free willism/decisional regeneration for the rejection of perseverance of the saints and rejection of evidence of conversion. Not all, but many do this. Any person who rejects evidence of conversion has a lot of Scripture reading, and comprehending of Scripture ahead of them.
It is rather like a pendelum (sic) swing. People tend to respond to one extreme by resorting to an opposite extreme. I used to be an extreme Arminians. Now I am neither Calvinist nor Arminians. My views are pretty much somewhere between moderate Classical Arminianism and moderate Calvinist. I have elements of both as well as things I remain undecided on