Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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Milee777

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Dec 24, 2018
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What's so surprising Jim? Need clarity regarding my testimony...? :D
 
With all due respect, and especially because I don't at all disagree with what you're saying here, I have to notice this whole thing you're talking about is but a tiny piece in the whole. Our spiritual walk in the Spirit is for us, and is everything, to us, but Jesus finished Gods plan in victory and redeemed the world, it's all going under Him and His kingdom will know no end.

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore.

If I'm not mistaken Jesus has ascended and sat down on His throne, right?

Before I get to far I do not think you'd disagree with a thing I've said, so I'm not intending this comment as a "rebuke", or teaching at all, I just think that no matter how detailed we get in accurately describing our walk with Him after being reborn of the Spirit, it only ever plays a tiny part in the glory of His whole plan. We should be much more focused on Him and His kingdom than on "me". And one last time because I really want to be clear I am not speaking about you, to be honest I'll just say I'm talking about myself, ironically. I'm just really starting to see how often we are talking about, concerned about, focused on, and arguing over very personal and self focused matters of faith. I'm just thinking it's so very much about His glory and His plan, and so very little to do with me (even though this in no way means to minimize or belittle His indescribable love and purpose for each and every one of us) Easy to sound too cold making this point, and that's the last way I want to come across. I'm also just thinking aloud to see what others might think. Thanks and have a great day.


"If I'm not mistaken Jesus has ascended and sat down on His throne, right?"

One must be very careful, in the discerning from "in the midst" of the Throne, to Psalms 110:1. Which states, "at MY right side!" Because, if memory is still serving me well, Isn't there some angel "disguised" as a "being of light", standing in the temple proclaiming himself AS God? Which is certainly NOT the case! (as shown below)

Revelation 5
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, STOOD a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

So, no! Jesus is not sitting upon the throne. Unless, of course, you have been "blinded by the light" (cut loose like a goose, another roamer in the night.....Sorry, I digress...my "slip" is showing...Freudian, that is), and therefore bind everything that is IN the "midst" of the throne, and of the 4 beasts, and of the elders, as all sitting UPON the throne. Therefore ALL are Christ? :unsure:

Disagree? Only whole-heartedly! If you are saying, or alluding to what it sounds to me like you are alluding to!

As in most cases, when rebuking a sin? There always seems to be, to a greater, or lessor degree, those hooks, which oft times, becomes, or causes to become, a "personal" issue, to any particular believer. Depending, of course, on how deeply, said hooks have become, or are embedded.

Be ALWAYS suspicious! Whilst being EVER Vigilant! In one's "earnestly coveting" "greater Spiritual gifts!"

It's not easy going around kicking the dragon, and taking names! Never been very popular either!

If one thinks a gynecologist, has a hard time rebuilding a motorcycle engine via the exhaust pipe?

Imagine how hard it is for God in "borning from above", the "spiritual" man, living in these "sacks of sin?" ;)
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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What's so surprising Jim? Need clarity regarding my testimony...? :D
I will really break it down tomorrow morning to be more specific, and tell you what you said exactly and stuff, but just the way you see things as they are in truth, like the state of fallen man, and the need for a change. Also seem to recognize the pointlessness of the whole thing if there is no change. I could be wrong in some of my assumptions or course and have more time to go through and be much more specific. Honestly everyone has a personal "salvation", not everyone has the "bam" overnight kind of thing. From what you're saying He may have been keeping you since you were young. I have no idea what happen, or why, but no matter what in Him these things can build us up, make us stronger in Him. Again I will do better tomorrow and hope you have a great night.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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"If I'm not mistaken Jesus has ascended and sat down on His throne, right?"

One must be very careful, in the discerning from "in the midst" of the Throne, to Psalms 110:1. Which states, "at MY right side!" Because, if memory is still serving me well, Isn't there some angel "disguised" as a "being of light", standing in the temple proclaiming himself AS God? Which is certainly NOT the case! (as shown below)

Revelation 5
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, STOOD a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

So, no! Jesus is not sitting upon the throne. Unless, of course, you have been "blinded by the light" (cut loose like a goose, another roamer in the night.....Sorry, I digress...my "slip" is showing...Freudian, that is), and therefore bind everything that is IN the "midst" of the throne, and of the 4 beasts, and of the elders, as all sitting UPON the throne. Therefore ALL are Christ? :unsure:

Disagree? Only whole-heartedly! If you are saying, or alluding to what it sounds to me like you are alluding to!

As in most cases, when rebuking a sin? There always seems to be, to a greater, or lessor degree, those hooks, which oft times, becomes, or causes to become, a "personal" issue, to any particular believer. Depending, of course, on how deeply, said hooks have become, or are embedded.

Be ALWAYS suspicious! Whilst being EVER Vigilant! In one's "earnestly coveting" "greater Spiritual gifts!"

It's not easy going around kicking the dragon, and taking names! Never been very popular either!

If one thinks a gynecologist, has a hard time rebuilding a motorcycle engine via the exhaust pipe?

Imagine how hard it is for God in "borning from above", the "spiritual" man, living in these "sacks of sin?" ;)
I agree with you last part, about "ALWAYS suspicious! Whilst being EVER Vigilant!" but, I believe the end of the age already came when God judged the covenant breakers in 70 AD when He took the temple out of the world forever, just like He said He would. Where is Jesus now? I was under the impression He is seated at the right hand of God until ALL enemies have been made His footstool and that ALL authority in heaven and ON EARTH is His. Are you saying He's not?

I am saying that the bible says Jesus our King, is seated at God's right hand right NOW, with ALL power and authority. Here are a few references, and I know the first one is prophesying but it points to the others.

Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David. The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Luke 22:69
But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Colossians 3:1
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

1 Peter 3:22
Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Mark 16:19
So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 10:12
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Ephesians 1:20
That he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,

Acts 2:33
Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Acts 5:31
God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 1:13
And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?

Acts 7:55-56
But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

So please correct me where I'm wrong saying that He is seated NOW with ALL power? I may have misunderstood what you were saying in the first part because I honestly had no clue what you were saying. I didn't follow at all, so if I am completely wrong about what you were even saying then this is null and sorry about that.
 
I agree with you last part, about "ALWAYS suspicious! Whilst being EVER Vigilant!" but, I believe the end of the age already came when God judged the covenant breakers in 70 AD when He took the temple out of the world forever, just like He said He would. Where is Jesus now? I was under the impression He is seated at the right hand of God until ALL enemies have been made His footstool and that ALL authority in heaven and ON EARTH is His. Are you saying He's not?

I am saying that the bible says Jesus our King, is seated at God's right hand right NOW, with ALL power and authority. Here are a few references, and I know the first one is prophesying but it points to the others.

Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David. The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Luke 22:69
But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Colossians 3:1
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

1 Peter 3:22
Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Mark 16:19
So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 10:12
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Ephesians 1:20
That he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,

Acts 2:33
Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Acts 5:31
God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 1:13
And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?

Acts 7:55-56
But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

So please correct me where I'm wrong saying that He is seated NOW with ALL power? I may have misunderstood what you were saying in the first part because I honestly had no clue what you were saying. I didn't follow at all, so if I am completely wrong about what you were even saying then this is null and sorry about that.

Alrighty then? I'll try again.

I "took issue" with your statement: "If I'm not mistaken Jesus has ascended and sat down on His throne, right?"

Like Jesus is the only one on the throne, and not on the right side OF "HE, who sits ON "HIS" (own) throne!" To whom all glory and praise be forever and ever! Amen!

So?, I couldn't actually say that Jesus Himself has "his own" throne! But, that he is "seated" at the right hand side OF the throne. Though, I would concur that the Father would consider it not robbery, should Messiah wish to consider where he is sitting to be a throne. It really doesn't state anywheres in the Bible, concerning this, that I'm aware of. But, I've been wrong before!

It sounded like, you were denying whom Jesus was sitting to the right side of. Which is quite a "big" biggie! "but, I believe the end of the age already came when God judged the covenant breakers in 70 AD when He took the temple out of the world forever, just like He said He would."

I myself, wouldn't "label" it, the "end" of an age, as methinks it leads to confusion. I rather think of this "event" you are referring to, as an "ushering out" of the "Old Covenant" "dispensation", and the "ringing in" of the "New Covenant", dispensation, oft times referred to as "Church age", or "dispensation of Grace", I have heard it called also. As the timing of this "event" lines up pretty closely to when the Gospel of Jesus Christ was "passed over" the Jews, who had rejected it, and given unto us gentiles. As God's "incentive" of provoking Israel to jealousy.

The only "other" age, although, it is not described as such, is the "2nd Advent", or the return of Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth to earth.

As far as Jesus being seated, or standing on the right hand side, of God? It doesn't really matter as to how much power and authority Messiah has! Cuz, He ain't comin' back til the Father gives the green light to come!

I'm sure glad we have this cleared up. :)
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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451
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Alrighty then? I'll try again.

I "took issue" with your statement: "If I'm not mistaken Jesus has ascended and sat down on His throne, right?"

Like Jesus is the only one on the throne, and not on the right side OF "HE, who sits ON "HIS" (own) throne!" To whom all glory and praise be forever and ever! Amen!

So?, I couldn't actually say that Jesus Himself has "his own" throne! But, that he is "seated" at the right hand side OF the throne. Though, I would concur that the Father would consider it not robbery, should Messiah wish to consider where he is sitting to be a throne. It really doesn't state anywheres in the Bible, concerning this, that I'm aware of. But, I've been wrong before!

It sounded like, you were denying whom Jesus was sitting to the right side of. Which is quite a "big" biggie! "but, I believe the end of the age already came when God judged the covenant breakers in 70 AD when He took the temple out of the world forever, just like He said He would."

I myself, wouldn't "label" it, the "end" of an age, as methinks it leads to confusion. I rather think of this "event" you are referring to, as an "ushering out" of the "Old Covenant" "dispensation", and the "ringing in" of the "New Covenant", dispensation, oft times referred to as "Church age", or "dispensation of Grace", I have heard it called also. As the timing of this "event" lines up pretty closely to when the Gospel of Jesus Christ was "passed over" the Jews, who had rejected it, and given unto us gentiles. As God's "incentive" of provoking Israel to jealousy.

The only "other" age, although, it is not described as such, is the "2nd Advent", or the return of Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth to earth.

As far as Jesus being seated, or standing on the right hand side, of God? It doesn't really matter as to how much power and authority Messiah has! Cuz, He ain't comin' back til the Father gives the green light to come!

I'm sure glad we have this cleared up. :)
Okay I see. Good to know, and I see how I worded it did make it sound like that, and that really made what you said make more sense. Thank you to brother, and have a great day.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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You died to sin, Penn?

Yet, do you still sin?

If the Old Man is dead - Why do you still sin?

If crucified means "dead" in that verse, and not "cut off" or "separated" - then you could not continue to sin. could you?

Since you believe the Old Man (the "flesh") is dead, then how do you stack up to this verse?:

"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
In this verse you're using you are ripping it out of context to make your "wrong" point. There is more to this from 8 to 10.

8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

So John is making a bigger contrast here between the ones saved and those not. Also no verse is saying we will NEVER sin, just we refuse to practice it, and will not "go on" sinning. In 8 he clearly says "The one who practices sin is of the devil", so you're of the devil right?

You clearly PROCLAIM your sin proudly to all, "we will always sin, we sin, Christians resist God", so if 9 is meant in the sense you're putting forth then NO ONE is saved and you're strait up "of the devil" like the rest of us huh? That sucks. It also goes on to say in 10 that this is how you tell us apart. So I say "I've been made new, the old man is dead, now I am made whole in the Spirit". and one that says "we will always sin, we will always sin, we will always sin". According to these verses, what category would you put each in? You are clearly of the devil right?

See the bible is so much bigger then the 3 or 4 verses you use to hammer the point "Christians still sin and resist God", endlessly while accusing people like me that can tell you so clearly that even though you are "technically" correct, this in no way has ANYTHING at all to do with the fact that being reborn of the Spirit WILL change you, and that change will be evidenced by how you live, our "works". If you can't find common ground with what I'm saying here I can only conclude you want nothing more than to bicker. Period.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Okay here's your answer: Because the old man being put to death does not mean "I'm sinnless". Understand?

Jim, if the Flesh (Old Man) were truly DEAD (as you claim) it would be INACTIVE, You would NOT SIN AT ALL. Dead things don't do ANYTHING.

I say the "Old Man" or the "Flesh" is dead, does not mean sinless.
Do you even understand what a contradiction in terms is?

Look it up.

You are confusing how God judges believers (as sinless - because of imputation) and yet, because we still have an active flesh, we SIN.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Are you can keep labeling my posts as "boring" or with with the big red "X" because you tripped up and don't have the humility to admit it.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Jim, if the Flesh (Old Man) were truly DEAD (as you claim) it would be INACTIVE, You would NOT SIN AT ALL. Dead things don't do ANYTHING.



Do you even understand what a contradiction in terms is?

Look it up.

You are confusing how God judges believers (as sinless - because of imputation) and yet, because we still have an active flesh, we SIN.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Are you can keep labeling my posts as "boring" or with with the big red "X" because you tripped up and don't have the humility to admit it.
Budman, the old man is dead in that it's power over us is broken. We still sin, but we never are in a place where we have to sin. When we sin, we are choosing to obey the old man, who has no Dominion over us, and resisting the Spirit.

We are people who are spiritually wealthy, but CHOOSE to sometimes live like paupers. BECAUSE we have not reckoned the old man dead, that is we have not reckoned him powerless.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Budman, the old man is dead in that it's power over us is broken. We still sin, but we never are in a place where we have to sin. When we sin, we are choosing to obey the old man, who has no Dominion over us, and resisting the Spirit.

We are people who are spiritually wealthy, but CHOOSE to sometimes live like paupers. BECAUSE we have not reckoned the old man dead, that is we have not reckoned him powerless.

Reckoning the Old Man dead and being actually dead are two different things. A dead thing has no power whatsoever. The Old Man is alive, yet I certainly agree it's power over us is broken.
 
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Budman, the old man is dead in that it's power over us is broken. We still sin, but we never are in a place where we have to sin. When we sin, we are choosing to obey the old man, who has no Dominion over us, and resisting the Spirit.

We are people who are spiritually wealthy, but CHOOSE to sometimes live like paupers. BECAUSE we have not reckoned the old man dead, that is we have not reckoned him powerless.
And we are to crucify the old man. That means that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we live soberly and godly in this age. Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, Paul said
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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And we are to crucify the old man. That means that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we live soberly and godly in this age. Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, Paul said
Again, I agree. My only point of contention with Jim is his insistence that the Old Man (the "Flesh") is dead.

As in graveyard dead.
 
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Again, I agree. My only point of contention with Jim is his insistence that the Old Man (the "Flesh") is dead.

As in graveyard dead.
The meaning of death as it is used in relation to sin, flesh, old man, etc is deprived of power, deprived of force and vigor.
 
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Again, I agree. My only point of contention with Jim is his insistence that the Old Man (the "Flesh") is dead.

As in graveyard dead.
The key is in the definition of death. The word is used in more than one way in the scriptures
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
173
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I will really break it down tomorrow morning to be more specific, and tell you what you said exactly and stuff, but just the way you see things as they are in truth, like the state of fallen man, and the need for a change. Also seem to recognize the pointlessness of the whole thing if there is no change. I could be wrong in some of my assumptions or course and have more time to go through and be much more specific. Honestly everyone has a personal "salvation", not everyone has the "bam" overnight kind of thing. From what you're saying He may have been keeping you since you were young. I have no idea what happen, or why, but no matter what in Him these things can build us up, make us stronger in Him. Again I will do better tomorrow and hope you have a great night.
✔️🙂
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
173
120
43
I will really break it down tomorrow morning to be more specific, and tell you what you said exactly and stuff, but just the way you see things as they are in truth, like the state of fallen man, and the need for a change. Also seem to recognize the pointlessness of the whole thing if there is no change. I could be wrong in some of my assumptions or course and have more time to go through and be much more specific. Honestly everyone has a personal "salvation", not everyone has the "bam" overnight kind of thing. From what you're saying He may have been keeping you since you were young. I have no idea what happen, or why, but no matter what in Him these things can build us up, make us stronger in Him. Again I will do better tomorrow and hope you have a great night.
You didn't break it down yet
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
173
120
43
well, well...i have a question...how do i know i am a Christian and that my name is written in the Book of Life? since there seems to be a bit of confusion here u see....atleast one person has said they were deceived into believing something that could have sent them straight to hell. ..
 
Dec 27, 2018
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well, well...i have a question...how do i know i am a Christian and that my name is written in the Book of Life? since there seems to be a bit of confusion here u see....atleast one person has said they were deceived into believing something that could have sent them straight to hell. ..
Miiee, I have a couple questions for you

A. Did you recognize and acknowledge to God that you are a sinner in need of mercy and forgiveness

B. Do you believe and confess that Jesus died for your sins, as the only way that you could have a relationship with God?

C. Do you believe that Jesus Rose from the dead?
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
173
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Miiee, I have a couple questions for you

A. Did you recognize and acknowledge to God that you are a sinner in need of mercy and forgiveness

B. Do you believe and confess that Jesus died for your sins, as the only way that you could have a relationship with God?

C. Do you believe that Jesus Rose from the dead?
A. yes
B. yes
C. yes
 
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A. yes
B. yes
C. yes
Then the way you know you are saved is by the authority of God's Word and by the testimony of God's Spirit. The Word of God says if you trust in the Lord Jesus, you will be saved and whoever believes on Him will not be ashamed

The scriptures were written that we may believe, and believing may have life. Stay in the scriptures, for by them you may know you have eternal life.