Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
"Predestined to be conformed to His son." Are the elect, many are called but few are chosen and faithful, these will rule with Christ because He rules in them. He that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. these have a crown of Life: eternal beings. Not all believers are overcomers. Some will be saves but as through fire, but lose their reward, they do not become eternal beings but remain among the nations of the saved who walk in the light of the City, The new Jerusalem. I could go on but that could be overwhelming and you only need to be fateful to walk in the Light you have to get more light.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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You didn't break it down yet
I'm so sorry, I started it then got pulled away on a 3 day weekend that the Lord kept me busy. I never forgot though.

Here are some of the points I was thinking of when I made the original comment,
You didn't break it down yet
I wanted to go back through to point out some of the things you said spot on that lead me to say what I did about you. I didn’t go all the way back, but in comment

#159
“Like you had doubts about free will/losing salvation... I have also had my own doubts. And yes... am pretty much stuck in the hows/whys... Rather than acting out anything. You said... One side has a too high a view of men. I hope i haven't portrayed myself as such a one in my discussions... Because i have come to a point wherein i feel terrible about myself and my nature... so handicapped by my sinful nature.”

Me- The fact you see “your” nature this way is truth, outside of Christ, but there is a danger from the other direction, and letting the guilt of sin your struggling with paralyze you from still proclaiming truth. This is a very ha4rd thing to do, to0 actually go to Him when you know you’ve disobeyed Him. But we still must, there is nowhere else to go, and this is also how He molds us more into His image. The fact that these things bother you so, in my opinion anyway, point to Him already having changed you. We don’t feel so much guilt when we are in the flesh, we have to many ways to justify anything we do, and it’s just so awesome embracing the sin.

In #196 you say

“I have to agree upon the guilt feeling.. Its a huge burden of guilt... like as though millions are slipping through our hands while we still struggle to understand this whole thing... And every passing day.. brings guilt.... every single death... the statistical analysis of the rate of death, no. of deaths.... it makes everything look hopeless.”

Me- This is 100% true….Before Jesus. He is that hope, and He had V-I-C-T-O-R-Y, the hope is there calling, that is why He transforms use and tells us to “go and make disciples of ALL nations”, This is the bigger picture, this is “the” Way, “the” ONLY Way, Jesus Christ, and we are the means by which he brings everything under and into Himself, as we were created to be. BTW I absolutely love your view and understanding of death and the gravity of the situation.

In comment #202 You literally cant get any closer to the “main point” of all reality than this-

“Yeah. The just shall live by faith. I know that there ain't any good in me... And any good flows through me only by leaning on Him... havin faith. Trying myself to be good without faith had made me stumble and broke me... i can't do anything without Him. I mean... I need Him. He is Love.”



Me- This is the whole point sister, and frankly I think it’s nothing short of amazing, and I praise God that you see things this clearly sister. I praise God in Jesus name for showing us these truths, and the futility of focusing on any wickedness out here instead of having it pinpointed on our glorious Creator, this is tragically our nature outside of Him, and I praise God He showed me “my way” for what it truly was. Nothing.



In #208



“But its comforting... If i dont have to feel guilty...2 of my batchmates, one a Hindu, another a Muslim died in a bike crash. I felt an urgency within me then... about people's eternity... people can leave at any moment.. I felt a pressure within me... My life must reflect Christ in me i thought but.. I looked at how miserable i was... I mean... more than focusing on studies.. My mind drifted upon the next person who would die without the gospel. Got me more concerned about eternity than the present moment and this life... and my studies... Like i wanted to throw this burden at God Himself... I cannot handle it. And now am trying to trust Him with this... This huge thing... Am trying to rely on Him... And thats where am struggling within. Am unable to give this burden to God.. Unable to trust that He would handle this wisely... Because of a lot of Scriptural doubts... I know its wrong but am trying to tell Him that i don't agree with His plan... of the elect... I know am not better than Him... but still at times i doubt His love when i see Him selecting some people...am trying to search out His heart behind this. Am trying to make sure He isn't playing a joke on humanity and laughing backstage. If He is doing that... Then let Him tell me that... I also will laugh at my own misery.”



Me- Oh my goodness, I just can’t help but see God is going to use you powerfully. I really don’t want this to just be a “catch phrase”, I also want to share some idea of how He is working this in my life. At the start , in my experience, and usually how everyone I’ve talked to testifies that starting out I had no clue what I was doing, I just knew God was real and I wanted to tell people. I also learned that the fastest way to clear a room of the lost is to start talking about Jesus, that said where better to share the truth than a place where they literally can not leave 8^D , anyway this is where God put me and I started sharing Jesus. At first when I went up there some times I’d get 2 request for “one on ones” and they’d both refuse when called, now by His power I can’t go up there without 5 or 6 request for me specifically. Bigger than that (which is ALL Him BTW, this is His power and glory) after about 2 years of doing it, I can actually see God at work in them, bringing them to life. It’s is amazing, and He starts small, but you just know that we have to separate the things of this world from God’s love. God does not sit laughing at anyone, God loved the world like this, He gave is ONLY Son to be the perfect sacrifice and to take the punishment of Gods righteous wrath for all who come to Him. The wickedness of man, and the injustice of this world will be judged, we can trust in our God on that, but look at all He did so that we might be reconciled, He gave us a way out of the hopelessness.

Then in # 607 you said

“I don't want to point fingers but a Church is supposed to be run by the Head who is Christ... Isn't it. Why would the Head want me to be left out. I try looking for Him.. But in a certain Church His love was apparent... just by the way a man greeted and hugged everybody with love in his eyes at the entrance. If God ain't present inside a Church... If the pastor is the head... I sense deep pain, and anger. Where is the Father? He knows every member individually and loves each one. Without His presence, it is like a boring party and a feeling that i don't belong.”

Me- I believe you’re spot on here, and this is something He is really only just opening my eyes to the importance and gravity of this concept of “togetherness’ 5 year into my walk. This kind of insight is truth, and I think you’re spot on and believe that only God opens our eyes to truth like this.

I just think you are so active in the way you think, in the questions you ask, and the points you make. I would just like to encourage you by saying that I hear our Shepard’s voice in the things you say and the way you come at them. I truly believe that God has a plan for all of us, but will be using you to proclaim His truth and power in amazing ways.



These are just a few examples of what I’m talking about, but it’s not the specific words, it’s the overall spirit you put out, and this is why I said what I did. I pray God continue to draw you closer everyday deepening your understanding of His glorious truth. I also pray He show you the truth of crippling guilt and the burden it puts on you. Jesus doesn’t chain us at all, He breaks chains. I pray you banish all that keeps the truth from being proclaimed from her mind and heart especially this false guilt. Let her see the beauty of your plan in peace, because in you there is a peace this world cannot offer and in this woman I hear a love for you, a desire for righteousness, to not only proclaim Your Name in words, but to go out and show it in deeds, in the world, in love, right now here today!!! May His kingdom come, may His will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven, and I pray this all in KING Jesus mighty Name. Amen
 
I'm so sorry, I started it then got pulled away on a 3 day weekend that the Lord kept me busy. I never forgot though.

Here are some of the points I was thinking of when I made the original comment,

I wanted to go back through to point out some of the things you said spot on that lead me to say what I did about you. I didn’t go all the way back, but in comment

#159
“Like you had doubts about free will/losing salvation... I have also had my own doubts. And yes... am pretty much stuck in the hows/whys... Rather than acting out anything. You said... One side has a too high a view of men. I hope i haven't portrayed myself as such a one in my discussions... Because i have come to a point wherein i feel terrible about myself and my nature... so handicapped by my sinful nature.”

Me- The fact you see “your” nature this way is truth, outside of Christ, but there is a danger from the other direction, and letting the guilt of sin your struggling with paralyze you from still proclaiming truth. This is a very ha4rd thing to do, to0 actually go to Him when you know you’ve disobeyed Him. But we still must, there is nowhere else to go, and this is also how He molds us more into His image. The fact that these things bother you so, in my opinion anyway, point to Him already having changed you. We don’t feel so much guilt when we are in the flesh, we have to many ways to justify anything we do, and it’s just so awesome embracing the sin.

In #196 you say

“I have to agree upon the guilt feeling.. Its a huge burden of guilt... like as though millions are slipping through our hands while we still struggle to understand this whole thing... And every passing day.. brings guilt.... every single death... the statistical analysis of the rate of death, no. of deaths.... it makes everything look hopeless.”

Me- This is 100% true….Before Jesus. He is that hope, and He had V-I-C-T-O-R-Y, the hope is there calling, that is why He transforms use and tells us to “go and make disciples of ALL nations”, This is the bigger picture, this is “the” Way, “the” ONLY Way, Jesus Christ, and we are the means by which he brings everything under and into Himself, as we were created to be. BTW I absolutely love your view and understanding of death and the gravity of the situation.

In comment #202 You literally cant get any closer to the “main point” of all reality than this-

“Yeah. The just shall live by faith. I know that there ain't any good in me... And any good flows through me only by leaning on Him... havin faith. Trying myself to be good without faith had made me stumble and broke me... i can't do anything without Him. I mean... I need Him. He is Love.”



Me- This is the whole point sister, and frankly I think it’s nothing short of amazing, and I praise God that you see things this clearly sister. I praise God in Jesus name for showing us these truths, and the futility of focusing on any wickedness out here instead of having it pinpointed on our glorious Creator, this is tragically our nature outside of Him, and I praise God He showed me “my way” for what it truly was. Nothing.



In #208



“But its comforting... If i dont have to feel guilty...2 of my batchmates, one a Hindu, another a Muslim died in a bike crash. I felt an urgency within me then... about people's eternity... people can leave at any moment.. I felt a pressure within me... My life must reflect Christ in me i thought but.. I looked at how miserable i was... I mean... more than focusing on studies.. My mind drifted upon the next person who would die without the gospel. Got me more concerned about eternity than the present moment and this life... and my studies... Like i wanted to throw this burden at God Himself... I cannot handle it. And now am trying to trust Him with this... This huge thing... Am trying to rely on Him... And thats where am struggling within. Am unable to give this burden to God.. Unable to trust that He would handle this wisely... Because of a lot of Scriptural doubts... I know its wrong but am trying to tell Him that i don't agree with His plan... of the elect... I know am not better than Him... but still at times i doubt His love when i see Him selecting some people...am trying to search out His heart behind this. Am trying to make sure He isn't playing a joke on humanity and laughing backstage. If He is doing that... Then let Him tell me that... I also will laugh at my own misery.”



Me- Oh my goodness, I just can’t help but see God is going to use you powerfully. I really don’t want this to just be a “catch phrase”, I also want to share some idea of how He is working this in my life. At the start , in my experience, and usually how everyone I’ve talked to testifies that starting out I had no clue what I was doing, I just knew God was real and I wanted to tell people. I also learned that the fastest way to clear a room of the lost is to start talking about Jesus, that said where better to share the truth than a place where they literally can not leave 8^D , anyway this is where God put me and I started sharing Jesus. At first when I went up there some times I’d get 2 request for “one on ones” and they’d both refuse when called, now by His power I can’t go up there without 5 or 6 request for me specifically. Bigger than that (which is ALL Him BTW, this is His power and glory) after about 2 years of doing it, I can actually see God at work in them, bringing them to life. It’s is amazing, and He starts small, but you just know that we have to separate the things of this world from God’s love. God does not sit laughing at anyone, God loved the world like this, He gave is ONLY Son to be the perfect sacrifice and to take the punishment of Gods righteous wrath for all who come to Him. The wickedness of man, and the injustice of this world will be judged, we can trust in our God on that, but look at all He did so that we might be reconciled, He gave us a way out of the hopelessness.

Then in # 607 you said

“I don't want to point fingers but a Church is supposed to be run by the Head who is Christ... Isn't it. Why would the Head want me to be left out. I try looking for Him.. But in a certain Church His love was apparent... just by the way a man greeted and hugged everybody with love in his eyes at the entrance. If God ain't present inside a Church... If the pastor is the head... I sense deep pain, and anger. Where is the Father? He knows every member individually and loves each one. Without His presence, it is like a boring party and a feeling that i don't belong.”

Me- I believe you’re spot on here, and this is something He is really only just opening my eyes to the importance and gravity of this concept of “togetherness’ 5 year into my walk. This kind of insight is truth, and I think you’re spot on and believe that only God opens our eyes to truth like this.

I just think you are so active in the way you think, in the questions you ask, and the points you make. I would just like to encourage you by saying that I hear our Shepard’s voice in the things you say and the way you come at them. I truly believe that God has a plan for all of us, but will be using you to proclaim His truth and power in amazing ways.



These are just a few examples of what I’m talking about, but it’s not the specific words, it’s the overall spirit you put out, and this is why I said what I did. I pray God continue to draw you closer everyday deepening your understanding of His glorious truth. I also pray He show you the truth of crippling guilt and the burden it puts on you. Jesus doesn’t chain us at all, He breaks chains. I pray you banish all that keeps the truth from being proclaimed from her mind and heart especially this false guilt. Let her see the beauty of your plan in peace, because in you there is a peace this world cannot offer and in this woman I hear a love for you, a desire for righteousness, to not only proclaim Your Name in words, but to go out and show it in deeds, in the world, in love, right now here today!!! May His kingdom come, may His will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven, and I pray this all in KING Jesus mighty Name. Amen

This "post/reply" is just AWESOME!

If I may add a little bit? What you are seeing, and the why you are wondering, "where is the Father?"
2 Thessalonians 2
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Joel 3 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
5
(2:32) At that time, whoever calls
on the name of Adonai will be saved.
For in Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim
there will be those who escape,
as Adonai has promised;
among the survivors will be those
whom Adonai has called. :);)
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
1,905
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Jim, if the Flesh (Old Man) were truly DEAD (as you claim) it would be INACTIVE, You would NOT SIN AT ALL. Dead things don't do ANYTHING.



Do you even understand what a contradiction in terms is?

Look it up.

You are confusing how God judges believers (as sinless - because of imputation) and yet, because we still have an active flesh, we SIN.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Are you can keep labeling my posts as "boring" or with with the big red "X" because you tripped up and don't have the humility to admit it.
This is just a strait up assertion you are making with nothing to back it up. I see you didn't touch the scripture you use to make your case? Are you a child of Satan or not? It says if we sin we are children of the devil. Sense we sin so much we mush all be lost, according to you. \you have no balance, avoid any real point I'm making and can not seem to get past your sin to declare the truth of the power of Jesus the Christ to make us a new creatures, like the text literally says, but you argue with. I have offered olive breach after olive breach and you slap them away and refuse to come to any kind middle ground or agreement. You will not answer anything I ask, and apparently you have it all figured out. I agree you do still sin and you cause division because of pride. You just have to be right, and can't see anything but "your way", when you turn from "your way" to His you will find out exactly what I'm talking about. Here you go, YOU WIN, YOUR RIGHT, everyone proclaim you still sin, HaHa, God you can't make us new.

Happy now sinning Christian? You go proclaim that life changing message.
 
"Predestined to be conformed to His son." Are the elect, many are called but few are chosen and faithful, these will rule with Christ because He rules in them. He that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. these have a crown of Life: eternal beings. Not all believers are overcomers. Some will be saves but as through fire, but lose their reward, they do not become eternal beings but remain among the nations of the saved who walk in the light of the City, The new Jerusalem. I could go on but that could be overwhelming and you only need to be fateful to walk in the Light you have to get more light.
Isaiah 29
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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This is just a strait up assertion you are making with nothing to back it up. I see you didn't touch the scripture you use to make your case? Are you a child of Satan or not? It says if we sin we are children of the devil. Sense we sin so much we mush all be lost, according to you. \you have no balance, avoid any real point I'm making and can not seem to get past your sin to declare the truth of the power of Jesus the Christ to make us a new creatures, like the text literally says, but you argue with. I have offered olive breach after olive breach and you slap them away and refuse to come to any kind middle ground or agreement. You will not answer anything I ask, and apparently you have it all figured out. I agree you do still sin and you cause division because of pride. You just have to be right, and can't see anything but "your way", when you turn from "your way" to His you will find out exactly what I'm talking about. Here you go, YOU WIN, YOUR RIGHT, everyone proclaim you still sin, HaHa, God you can't make us new.

Happy now sinning Christian? You go proclaim that life changing message.

Jim, I'm done. You're starting to sound unhinged. So, I'm letting this go.

God bless.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
At what point in a believers walk is the "old man" put to death?
"Daily pick up your cross and follow me." Obedience turns our will to the will of God, and empowers us when persecution comes. Is persecution necessary then? If it was not necessary we would not have to face it. "All things are of God," for those who are carried by the Spirit.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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@gb9, here is another post that proves I do not hold what you said I hold.

BTW, this answers the nanosecond question. God can save us in a nanosecond because we don't have to have full understanding. Just enough to repent towards God and have faith in Jesus. That can happen in an instant. That is new birth. All the other stuff follows as we grow from infancy, to children, to young men, to maturity in faith
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,735
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Jim, if the Flesh (Old Man) were truly DEAD (as you claim) it would be INACTIVE, You would NOT SIN AT ALL. Dead things don't do ANYTHING.


Not dead but suffering. In suffering the pang of hell one does die.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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I can tell you that I was raised in church, made a profession of faith at an early age, in childhood, (but I don't think I was converted because of ensuing events), began using drugs in early teens, mocked Christianity in mid teens, fascination and dabbling in occult, late teens, full blown hater of God, early twenties, blasphemer, early twenties, heavy drugs, started hearing and seeing things that weren't there, thought Satan wanted to enter my body, was terrified of being alone or walking into a dark room...

One night in a terror called out to God to help me. Holy Spirit shone a bright light, filled with sorrow over my sin, called on Jesus' name, and all that garbage fell of of me instantly. No more drugs, no more hate, no more blasphemy, no more fear. Total and radical change.

Whole thing happened almost instantly. Since then I have had struggles and have not always been the man I am called to be, but God has kept me, and I know if He didn't, I would have fallen away long ago
Here is my testimony @BillG
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Have you mentioned me here because of my post on the not by works thread?
Yes sorry. I thought I was still in that thread. You asked me about conviction of sin so I thought I would share how I was drawn to Jesus
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
I am Reformed.

My position would be yes, there is a select group of individuals who will be saved (the elect), and not all people are elected to salvation.

I don't believe Jesus died for all, but he died for all that the Father gives to him. See John 6 in regards to this..I would suggest reading all of John.

When the Bible says God is not a respecter of persons, primarily it's talking about the Jew/Gentile division. Jews in the first century thought that they had an inside track on salvation. God doesn't respect persons for ethnicity, sex, social or economic status, etcetera, but I do believe that only certain individuals are elect, and God passes over the rest. I would read Romans 8-11 in regards to this.

This view is called limited atonement. I believe that the atonement was effective for everyone it is intended for (all the elect), but limited in terms of who it was for.

The other view is called unlimited atonement. They believe that it was intended for everyone, but it's effective for only a small number.

The difference is whether you think God will save everyone he intends to save, or if he intended to save everyone but can't pull it off.

I don't believe in a powerless god who cannot save everyone he intends to.

Regarding election, the non-Reformed person claims that God looks down the corridor of time and sees who will respond to him, and then elects that person. What they are claiming is that God doesn't choose; men choose. No matter how they try to re-word it, that is what they believe.

The Reformed person claims that God chooses to save specific individuals, even the worst of humanity sometimes, and saves them, because he can save anyone. He regenerates them and causes them to believe and repent. He actually chooses in this case, and there is no mockery in regards to that. 1 Corinthians 1 would be a good example, where Paul says God chooses people who are not noble, mighty, wealthy or wise. He chooses weak things so no flesh can glory.

This is a long-standing debate in the Church. Some will call you evil and a devil if you believe Reformed theology. Personally I've experienced their biblical prowess and I don't think their theology is coherent. So, they can say what they want...I don't care :)

God owes nothing to sinful humans. The fact that he extends salvation to anyone is by his grace. Grace can't be forced; it is a gift. Non-Reformed people tend to take the opportunity for salvation as a given and an entitlement. Therefore they show very little appreciation for their salvation.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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No. That’s the problem I think with a lot of people, adults included.
Yet you are still here having made that child like confession.
I made the same one at the age of 7 after watching Jesus of Nazareth film.
Done the same as you did and more.
I'm still here as well.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Depending on context "the elect" can mean (a) specific individuals, (b) the believing remnant of Israel, and (c) all believers in Christ.

Divine election is according to God's foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2), which means that those who would believe and obey the Gospel would be elected or predestined for perfection and glorification.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [elect] to be conformed to the image of his Son, [perfected] that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30).

Election is NOT for salvation, since God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4)
In reality, what God saw by his foreknowledge is that none would believe and obey the Gospel. Psalms 53:2 says that he saw that none would seek him and they were all filthy. That is why he choose an elect people. Saved (deliverance) does not always mean eternally, in fact most of the salvation scriptures are referring to a deliverance we receive as we live our lives here in this world. There is a deliverance here in time in coming unto a knowledge of the Gospel,
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
To refresh your memory concerning the Elect, "Let us go on to perfection, and this we will do if God permits." They are permitted to go on to perfection for they noonger live for themselves: are overcomers, have no fellowship with the works of darkndarkness, no longer remain babes that are quarelsome, but will have part in the first Resurrection. Those who have begun to go on can see the error of those who remain babes: thinking that they know the Lord while leaning on their understanding: thinking they have arrived and have not suffered in the flesh to cease from sin. "For it is given to you, not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer with Him." "Yea all that Live Godly shall suffer persecution." Babes in Christ have not learned to remain in the Love of God and bear fruit that remaind and "Will suffer lost but will be saved through fire."
 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
The doctrine of the Elect of God is also sometimes referred to as , the Doctrine of the Elect of God, or, The Doctrine of Predestination.

It does appear to be contradictory when you put your inquiry into those words. When Jesus died for all why is there that group called the Elect of God?

This topic has been discussed elsewhere on this site so I'll share with you a link to a questions site that focuses on your query.
Question: "Who are the elect of God?"

Two excerpts from that article if you don't feel like reading a single page article.

As it stands, the concept of God electing those who will be saved isn’t controversial. What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election (or predestination). One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). This view is held by the majority of American evangelicals.


And

The second main view is the Augustinian view, which essentially teaches that God not only divinely elects those who will have faith in Jesus Christ, but also divinely elects to grant to these individuals the faith to believe in Christ. In other words, God’s election unto salvation is not based on a foreknowledge of an individual’s faith, but is based on the free, sovereign grace of Almighty God. God elects people to salvation, and in time these people will come to faith in Christ because God has elected them.

The difference boils down to this: who has the ultimate choice in salvation—God or man? In the first view (the prescient view), man has control; his free will is sovereign and becomes the determining factor in God’s election. God can provide the way of salvation through Jesus Christ, but man must choose Christ for himself in order to make salvation real. Ultimately, this view diminishes the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty. This view puts the Creator's provision of salvation at the mercy of the creature; if God wants people in heaven, He has to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation. In reality, the prescient view of election is no view of election at all, because God is not really choosing—He is only confirming. It is man who is the ultimate chooser.