The Bible talks very clearly about individual believers being cut out of the tree. And the Bible also explains you can't have eternal life if you aren't in Christ. Which should be obvious since Jesus IS eternal life. But the church has been taught that you can be cut out of Christ and still have eternal life.
Woe to the people who are responsible for leading little ones who believe in Christ to stumble so as to go to the eternal fire (Matthew 18:6-9) by giving them false comfort that they can not lose eternal life no matter what and they then do that 'no matter what' thinking they are safe. I'm not saying that to suggest you are one of them (I don't know that). I'm saying it because Jesus spoke in plain words about little ones who believe in him being able to go to the fiery hell. Or is this another example of OSAS's 'he didn't really mean what he plainly said'?
Any Christian can be deceived at any time. I'm sure you are in agreement with that. So, obviously, that's not what Jesus was addressing. What he was addressing was the believer being deceived so as to ultimately be captured by the falseness of the end times and be lost. That can't happen. No one can have their salvation tricked away from them. But what the whole counsel of scripture teaches is you can lose it if you willingly give it up. The many warnings in the Bible are to not do that and instead to keep believing to the end to be saved. Even traditional Calvinist OSAS believes that! So the question really comes down to whether or not the true believer can ever stop believing.
What I'm aware of is how OSAS has to make the simple plain passages 'not really' mean what they so plainly say in order to defend itself (I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS). That realization is actually what got me off the fence about OSAS. It's one of the most dishonest doctrines in all of Christianity. It says never mind what the obvious, plain words are--there's this esoteric meaning that makes the plain words 'not really' mean what they say.
Yep. That's a fact. But that hardly means you can't lose what you received the moment you started believing. Non-OSAS means you are saved from the moment you started believing and you will remain saved as long as you continue that believing you started. It's amazing how many Christians at this time in church history think that's a works gospel. When did faith move over to the works side of Paul's 'faith vs. works for justification' argument?
And I've heard my share of them, lol. One guy even went so far as to say saved in 1 Corinthians 5:5 meant being saved from a dirty personal spirit. Of course he had to invent that because he couldn't acknowledge that the sinner in the church at Corinthians had to be turned over to the devil in order to be saved on the Day of Judgment. That wouldn't line up with his preconceived OSAS beliefs.
I appreciate your response.
Scripture is far more clear about Christ keeping people saved than it is about people potentially losing their salvation.
If you are a NEW CREATION how do you lose it?
The issues here is that I see people as a brand new creation. People who want to joyfully follow the Lord. And this work is done by God. He prepared the good works for us to walk in advance.
There's Scriptures for and against both positions.
What I don't appreciate is the idea that people who believe different to you are being dishonest. I also don't appreciate the use of attacking people's character who disagree with you. This is a common tactic in "persuasion", but really it's manipulation.
I could just as easily bring up the fact that you ignored discussing the context that Paul is discussing Jews vs Gentiles and simply chose to say how wrong I am. Which to me is incredibly dishonest.
I chose to address the Scriptures you are referencing to have a discussion about them. You chose to attack the character of those who disagree with you.
You seem to think you know the motivations of why people say and do the things they do. You say it over and over, they do it because of this... or they say this because of that... discernment isn't knowing other people's motivations. It's understanding our own.
And unfortunately, I am seeing that a lot from people in this thread who believe you can lose their salvation. It doesn't really surprise me though because if people don't believe they are truly a new creation in Christ why would they act like it?
But I did expect differently of you because of our past life-giving discussions.
Let me reiterate for you: I don't have a hidden agenda. I consider the whole of Scripture. I consider the original languages. I read Scripture consistently. I have an incredible relationship with Holy Spirit. I'm in ministry. My life is devoted to God. I've had ridiculous encounters with God and seen Him do many supernatural things. I know down to my core how real He is.
But, I still don't agree with how you interpret some Scriptures. Not because I'm being dishonest, but because I see things differently than you do.
I don't say these things to brag, it's all Him, He has won me over with His love, goodness, and kindness, but I say them to paint a different picture of myself and also others you are discussing with.
Maybe, just maybe, you are wrong. And maybe, just maybe, I am wrong.
I am certain that at the end of our lives, Jesus is going to focus on our love for one another. Not our Scripture understanding. The intentions of our heart behind our communication not the principles behind what we teach. He is the one who made Scripture appear to contradict. Maybe He did it so we can learn to love those we disagree with?
What you call "dishonesty" is simply people trying to take the whole counsel of God. You're not the only one who knows Scripture nor Holy Spirit. We are all working this out together.
I used to be one of the most legalistic people. I used to be afraid of losing my salvation daily. I would confess my sins daily. Get "saved" over and over and over again. But at the end of the day? It was
all about me. I was so afraid for myself, my focus was only on myself, I was so afraid of being wrong I would focus on the worst possible scenarios of Scripture taught to ensure I was being right. I've made so many of the same arguments I see here. It doesn't mean I'm right today, but it does mean I have understanding.
Scripture teaches us that the new man is created in true righteousness and holiness. I believe it. I believe He designed us to walk in good works. Just as Scripture teaches. I believe He changed the tree so we would have fruit. I believe He changed the root structure itself by putting us in Christ. I believe that "abiding in Him" is believing that we are joined with Him. Yes, these our spiritual truths. But I also believe this spiritual truths are what everything else flows from. I don't believe a person can lose their "new creation status" because just as our good works didn't turn us from sinners to saints, I don't believe bad works turn us from saints to sinners. And the truth is where people do struggle with "bad works". These are called works of flesh. They are not works of Spirit. This is a situation of someone not living out of who they truly are in Christ.
What do you think IN CHRIST means? I will tell you after years of study on this topic. It's referring to the work done in the Spirit. It's referring to us being joined in Spirit. So when Paul says things like: I can do all things
through Christ he's talking about the new creation reality we now enjoy. This is why he says the body is a "tent". I can give you continual references to this understanding. Paul also says he knows no one according to the flesh. Why? Because to Paul the new person in the Spirit is more real than the person in the flesh.
And so while people DO struggle it's because they don't truly understand who they are. But when people do understand who they are in Christ. Wow. Everything that people are taught to "do" suddenly begins to flow. They love, they live, they have joy, and they express Christ as His witnesses on Earth.
Telling people they can lose their salvation. Makes life about them. Hence, why we have so many self-centered believers because they focus on themselves instead of the Father. We can't even define what "good works" are, yet, we spend hours and hours debating it. And sadly those who debate we need them the most. From my experience are the ones who lack them the most.
C.
