Not By Works

[PS]

I just posted this in another... Abraham believed was Counted righteousness then did a work to show or prove his faith... Circumcisions.. You can't throw out works.. they prove your faith

Works are the visible evidence of our faith.

 

[PHart]

But anyway, stunned, you are right. Both sides are not to choose their favorite isolated scriptures at the expense of other scriptures. I'm defending a method of Biblical discernment that embraces ALL the scriptures. The difference in this method being, the interpretation of truth takes ALL the scriptures into consideration. So I'm definitely not advocating simply choosing a different set of isolated scriptures and hunkering down with those and then going to war with the other side who uses their set of carefully chosen, but isolated scriptures to battle with.

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works to give evidence to his claim. That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Also keep in mind that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." Again, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well sure it's the end of the story......if you stop reading the book.

The sealing is sure and lasts until the Day of redemption if you keep trusting in Christ in faith. Step out from the protection of the Holy Spirit in a contemptuous, willful return to the world in unbelief and you will surely not have His sealing protection any more. He will not follow you back to the world in a willful rejection of Christ:

"If we deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12 NASB)

A perfect example of what I was saying. You pick that verse and another man picks the following verse. No man can tie the two together.

 

[JaumeJ]

2 Thes 2:3 - the falling away/apostasy/rebellion

 

[loveme1]

Well sure it's the end of the story......if you stop reading the book.

The sealing is sure and lasts until the Day of redemption if you keep trusting in Christ in faith. Step out from the protection of the Holy Spirit in a contemptuous, willful return to the world in unbelief and you will surely not have His sealing protection any more. He will not follow you back to the world in a willful rejection of Christ:

"If we deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12 NASB)

Think of the Word of GOD being alive and what it does... I like what you say about end of story if you stop reading.. you hit the nail on the head.. it is not so much stop reading but the need to keep learning and believing ceases when a person becomes highminded .. to exalt yourself to that point rather than believe all and be humbled and wait to be told you are worthy by the Lord is better for all that partake in the New Covenant.. there is striving.. it is labouring in love..

 

[PHart]

A perfect example of what I was saying. You pick that verse and another man picks the following verse. No man can tie the two together.

I can and have lots of times in this and other forums. No one listens. But we'll visit it tomorrow as time permits.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I can't fully articulate how to do it without staying up all night. The best way to see how this works is to use actual examples. Let's do that.

For now I'm heading back to bed for another hour of sleep before I have to go to work.

Uh oh...proverbs 6:9-11...uh oh...

 

[PS]

Well sure it's the end of the story......if you stop reading the book.

The sealing is sure and lasts until the Day of redemption if you keep trusting in Christ in faith. Step out from the protection of the Holy Spirit in a contemptuous, willful return to the world in unbelief and you will surely not have His sealing protection any more. He will not follow you back to the world in a willful rejection of Christ:

"If we deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12 NASB)

You are ignoring apostacy.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:4-6 KJV)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You are ignoring apostacy.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:4-6 KJV)

Hmm...I thought he WAS talking about apostasy ...

 

[dcontroversal]

Folks.....there are no phases of salvation...the following premise is false and posted by a working for, sinless perfectionist pusher...salvation is a one off event with present continuing eternal results based entirely upon grace through faith....do not be deceived by any and all who push works, religion and or so called "phases" of salvation which is false and contrary to the truth.

1.Not by works( NOT VOID OF WORKS) but by grace thru FAITH.(eph 2:8-9)
2.Justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.(james 2:24)
3.Faith that Worketh in Love.(gal 5:6)
4.Faith and Action Working TOGETHER.(james 2:22)

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH and NOT BY WORKS(of ourselves).(#1)

It is NOT BY FAITH ALONE(#2)but it WORKS in LOVE(#3)thus FAITH & LOVE(works of obedience(romans 1:5) manifested in ACTION and in TRUTH)(1john 3:16-18)are working TOGETHER.(#4)

2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE: THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.



THE FIRST PHASE OF SALVATION IS TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE THAT GOD HAS SENT AND IN HIS WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.
(john 6:28-29, eph 1:13,romans 10:8-17).
THROUGH THIS FAITH WE WILL RECEIVE THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT(the Helper/Counsellor)(gal 3:14, john 14:16-17)

John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the WORKS GOD REQUIRES?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent.”

THE SECOND PHASE IS THE WORKING OUT OF THAT SALVATION AND REMAINING/CONTINUING IN THE FAITH TO THE END THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL AND COMMANDMENTS, DOING GOOD WORKS. WALKING AS JESUS DID AND BEING A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST WHO DOES THE WORKS BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHO IS THE HEAD.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, HIS BODY OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has FAITH in me WILL DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN DOING. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father

1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, iF YOU HOLD FIRMLY TO THE WORD I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the OBEDIENCE that comes from FAITH.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always OBEYED—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—CONTINUE TO WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.

Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—WHETHER YOU ARE SLAVES TO SIN, WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, OR TO OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS?

2 Corinthians 9:13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the OBEDIENCE THAT ACCOMPANIES YOUR CONFESSION OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.

Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to PREPARE God’s people FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the FULLNESS of Christ.

Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in DOING GOOD seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in DOING GOOD, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 Command them TO DO GOOD, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Although he was a son, he learned OBEDIENCE from what he suffered and, once made PERFECT, he became the SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION for all who OBEY HIM.

Matthew 19:16-17 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.”

Matthew 25:21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful SERVANT You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. COME AND SHARE YOUR MASTER’S HAPPINESS!’

WE ARE SANCTIFIED BY THESE TRUTHS AS IT IS WRITTEN:
John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

James 1:22 BUT BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT HEARERS ONLY deceiving your own selves.

Romans 2:13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God: that WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; and His commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

Ephesians 3:19 and to know this LOVE that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all THE FULLNESS OF GOD.

THE THIRD PHASE OF SALVATION IS SALVATION FROM GOD’S WRATH. THIS IS DEPENDING ON GOD’S MERCY AND JUDGMENT(JUSTICE).

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

1 John 4:17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because IN THIS WORLD WE ARE LIKE HIM.

Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that MEN WILL HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father,(ref:john 14:12) where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment,(ref:hebrews 10:26-27) because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Romans 2:5-10 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? FOR WE WILL ALL STAND BEFORE GOD’S JUDGMENT SEAT.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, NOT TO BEAR SIN, BUT TO BRING SALVATION to those who are waiting for him.

1 Peter 4:17-18 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY the gospel of God? And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the SINNER?”

 

[JaumeJ]

The work begun in each of us who are saved is by God, Himself, and it will not be completed until His Day.

 

[dcontroversal]

At the end of the movie it was disclosed that the cardinal who orchestrated the cover-up was rewarded with a position in one of the highest ranking RC churches in the world. Major abuse scandals were also uncovered in the following places:

Over the course of 2002, the Spolight team published close to 600 stories about the scandal.

Correction: it was 149 priests and brothers within the Boston archdiocese.

Tragic hey..........wicked to the core

 

[dcontroversal]

Works alone will not save you it they will sure help you out on Judgment day. Especially since Christ commanded in Matthew 16:24-27 “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.”

Works won't save you, keep you saved help you stay saved and or embellish your salvation in any shape, form or fashion.....they are the RESULTS OF SALVATION which is already POSSESSED by faith through grace as a GIFT.....

Therefore we conclude that a man is JUSTIFIED by faith WITHOUT WORKS <--before GOD

NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his MERCY HAS HE SAVED US!

 

[dcontroversal]

Faith and works....neither alone. You need both, that’s all I️ was saying .

and for salvation you would be wrong......!

 

[dcontroversal]

i don't.
i See that he loves Gods law and that he wants to keep it because the scripture says those who love Christ keep His commandments. i've never seen Hiz say that we need to keep Torah either to be saved or to maintain salvation, tho maybe i missed it and he did. his signature says we maintain that justification is by faith apart from works of the law.

Somehow we need to be able to both proclaim the free gift of grace and to encourage one another towards godliness and righteous behaviour... I figure Hiz is trying to do that.

yeah....ok sure.........

 

[JaumeJ]

Faith is equated to being a kind of spiritual gold, as the street of the New Jerusalem is paved with gold so pure it is like glass and you can see into it.

Faith without works is no faith at all. It is like the worthless steward who was given the one talent of gold.

Upon the Masters return the worthless steward retrieved the single talent from where he had buried it., where it certainly became soiled, dirty.

He had done nothing to increase the value of what was given him by theMaster in the first place so what he had was taken fro him and given tothe one who had increased it the most. Then that worthless servant was taken and cast into the out darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Faith without works is dead. No, you cannot earn salvation, but you are able to lose it. Learn from Jesus Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, I'm quite sure that I'm the only one that you've encountered that challenges the doctrine that looks at the word 'sealed' and instantly defines sealed as 'not able to be unsealed'."

Over and over, Christians saying, "see? We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, so that means we can not be unsealed." And I wonder, when did 'sealed' now mean 'unable to be unsealed', lol? The hypocrisy of that thinking being you don't think it means that when you seal your leftovers and put them in the refrigerator. But for the sake of defending an ear tickling doctrine it suddenly means that.

God is the God of wording......post one verse that states clearly that the seal of God on saved men by the Holy Spirit can be unsealed....

We will ALL wait.....you know along the lines of....I will UNSEAL YOU or I will disannul the seal that my Holy Spirit has sealed you with....

Your as false as they come and your words blaspheme the Holy Spirit of God and devalues his work by COMPARING HIS WORK to a bowl of lasagna.....

TO WHOM shall you compare me or to what shall you LIKEN ME.....

You will pay a heavy price by devaluing the Holy Spirit as you have.....

 

[PS]

Hmm...I thought he WAS talking about apostasy ...

I understood him to be saying, once you were sealed you couldn't be unsealed. Maybe I misunderstood him?

 

[dcontroversal]

Well sure it's the end of the story......if you stop reading the book.

The sealing is sure and lasts until the Day of redemption if you keep trusting in Christ in faith. Step out from the protection of the Holy Spirit in a contemptuous, willful return to the world in unbelief and you will surely not have His sealing protection any more. He will not follow you back to the world in a willful rejection of Christ:

"If we deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12 NASB)

You can yank verses all you want to hang your blasphemy on and you will still be wrong....Sealed by God is Sealed by GOD and your view Blasphemes GOD and His SPIRIT.....bad day coming for you....