Not By Works

preacher4truth · Jan 12, 2018

Works are unequivocally tied to true belief. Belief without works is not saving faith, "...can that faith save him?" James 2:14.

The answer is no because that faith isn't the faith of a believer.

Sola Fide is true, there is only one true faith and this faith is described in Scripture. It isn't the believe-ism that people are touting today as some sort of stand alone mental assent to facts with no evidence of conversion or works to substantiate it as true. Sorry, Scripture describes what a true believer looks like, and what one doesn't look like.

People are so scared to death of works as soon as you mention the word, or that faith actually works, or that belief equals obedience they go berserk and accuse of a "works gospel."

They will surely agree that the lost are the children of disobedience (Colossians 3:6&c) then these actually make believers of the same camp; disobedient as well. "Children of disobedience" shows the contrast between the lost and saved. Jesus' sheep obey, have works, produce fruit.

False faith only says, and all it says is it "believes."

Many are conflating this with or preaching this as genuine faith when it is not.

stonesoffire · Jan 12, 2018

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforthbe no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, andcunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Unity of the faith of the Son, knowledge of the Son.

I don't know who you are John, but am so glad you came here.

missing pieces filled!

DJ2 · Jan 12, 2018

Chicken_Brent said:

You are quite correct, belief is not obedience.

Most followers of belief only regeneration theology will assert that obedience is the inevitable byproduct of belief. This is far from the case. There are many examples of belief without obedience, faith only supporters simply turn a blind eye to them.

Faith, trust, belief etc. are nothing more then abstract principles without reward. Salvation is based on the forgiveness of sins, without this forgiveness no theology can save. Peter expressly stated that baptism is the point of that forgiveness. (Acts 2:38) Attempting to negate this point with verses about the need for faith is futile. If forgiveness of sins is limited to belief then the demons themselves are saved.

The scriptures have much more to say about salvation then John 3:16.

We are all judged by our works. We do not get a choice. (Romans 2:6-8)

eternally-gratefull · Jan 12, 2018

John146 said:

No, this is not what the Bible says, it says his RIGHTEOUSNESS is imputed. Not his faith.

His faith is what we learn to have, as we learn to trust God as he did.

again wrong, as I already proved in my past posts about faith of a mustard seed, and asking God to help in unbelief, If faith if a mustard seed can move mountains, it is enough to save us. i

true, but faith is not a work, it is a trust in someone else’s work.

The OT faith was a trust that God would do the work he promised he would do. The NT faith is a trust in the work Jesus did

stonesoffire · Jan 12, 2018

EG, if you can rest in His work, then why not rest in His faith? It takes away that accusation, "you don't have enough faith".

ruach · Jan 12, 2018

stonesoffire said:

Did or Does Jesus' own personal faith save you?

eternally-gratefull · Jan 12, 2018

stonesoffire said:

How can I rest in his faith, it is his faith, not mine. I am not him,

I can rest in his trustworthyness by trusting in him, But I am not him,

Shamah · Jan 12, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 11:4, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is in His holy temple; [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 62:9-12, “Sons of Aḏam are but a breath, Sons of men are a lie; If weighed in the scales, They are altogether lighter than breath. Do not trust in oppression. And do not become vain in robbery; If riches increase, Do not set your heart on them. The Mighty One has spoken once, Twice I have heard this: That strength belongs to Yah. And loving-commitment is Yours, O [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]; For You reward each one according to his work.”[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*done” is word #G4160 ποιέω poieo (poi-ye'-ō) v., to make or do.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]{in a very wide application, more or less direct; properly refers to a single act thus differing from G4238}, [apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary], Compare: G4238[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*practiced” G4238 πράσσω prasso (pras'-sō) v., 1. to practice, i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually., 2. (by implication) to execute, accomplish, etc., 3. (specially) to collect (dues), fare (personally)., {differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act}, [a primary verb], KJV: commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts, Compare: G4160[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John/Yahanan 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John/Yahanan 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John/Yahanan3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 5:13, "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 4:15, "Because the law works wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:15, "Who show the work of the Torah written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing (condemming sin) or even excusing (justifying sin)."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 13:41-43, "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]judgment seat” is word #G968 - béma: a step, raised place, by impl. A tribunal, Original Word: βῆμα, ατος, τό, Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter, Transliteration: béma, Phonetic Spelling: (bay'-ma), Short Definition: the space covered by a step of the foot, a tribunal, Definition: an elevated place ascended by steps, a throne, tribunal.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]שָׁמַע[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”[/FONT]

Shamah · Jan 12, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 9:23-26, “Thus said יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], “Let not the wise boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty boast in his might, nor let the rich boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], doing loving-commitment, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” declares [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], “See, the days are coming,” declares [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], “when I shall punish all circumcised with the uncircumcised; Mitsrayim, and Yehuḏah, and Eḏom, and the children of Ammon, and Mo’aḇ, and all those trimmed on the edges, who dwell in the wilderness. For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Yisra’ĕl are uncircumcised in heart!”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 40:28, "Did you not know? Have you not heard? The everlasting Strength, יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable."

Isaiah 60:16, "“And you shall suck the milk of the nations, and shall suckle the breast of sovereigns. And you shall know that I, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], your Savior and your Redeemer, am the Mighty One of Ya‛aqoḇ."

Psalm 68:19, "Blessed be [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה, Day by day He bears our burden, The Strength of our salvation! Selah."[/FONT]

BillG · Jan 12, 2018

What does the following say?

Romans 3:20-24
20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. 21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, 22 and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing,--for there is no difference, 23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus, (YLT)

slave · Jan 12, 2018

Ralph- said:

Amen! It has been pointed out here before that the title of this thread is mis-leading. There are two separate subjects included here in conversation, that some do not understand are different. Works for Salvation; versus good works that come from Salvation as evidence of Christ as Lord of your life.

The challenge for the Christian, is to convince others to stop trusting their own good works or obedience for salvation and to put all of their faith and trust in Jesus alone for eternal life. I believe this is Ralph's position, and it is Scriptures position.

Often a Christian will rightly turn to the Apostle Paul's words in Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5, or Romans chapters three and four to document the Biblical doctrine of salvation through faith alone.

But, at this point almost every cult member -- whether Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Worldwide Church of God, etc, etc - will turn to the book of James to defend their belief that works are necessary for salvation.

Paul says that God is the, "...justifier of him which believeth in Jesus ...By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:26-28).

However James states, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

When witnessing to someone in a cult or in a thread of confused believers, Christians should be prepared to deal with this apparent contradiction. The nature of the Gospel hinges on a proper understanding of the relationship of faith and works in salvation.

The major theme of Paul's letters is that salvation is a totally free gift - not earned by good works, rituals, or obeying laws. Eternal life is by grace through faith.

In Romans chapters three and four alone, Paul states this principle no fewer than fifteen times. A few examples are:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight...." (Rom. 3:19).

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested...." (3:20).

"Being justified freely by his grace...." (3:24).

"...Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (4:3).

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justified the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (4:5).

"...God imputeth righteousness without works" (4:6).

Therefore it is of faith that it might by grace...." (4:15).

However, when turning to James one finds what appears at first to be a direct contradiction. James states:

"...though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone...." (2:17).

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (2:20).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (2:24).

This apparent conflict between the two epistles has caused confusion on the part of many Christians when cult members point to James as "proof" that one must earn salvation. And it is true that this thread site is muling over it many times in the mind first instead of the spirit first.

As one commentator, Dr. D. Edmond Hiebert, observes, "This paragraph [James 2:14-26] is one of the most difficult, and certainly the most misunderstood, sections in the epistle. It takes the spirit to discern our way on this subject. But the great news it is available and the answer is very clear at the end of the seeking His face on this.

" Yet, It has been a theological battle ground; James often has been understood as contradicting Paul's teaching that salvation is by faith alone apart from works" (The Epistle of James, D. Edmond Hiebert, p. 174).

Reformer Martin Luther, the champion of salvation through faith alone sola fide, once even called the book of James "a right strawy epistle" because of this difficult passage.

While some critics may even point to this as an example of the Bible contradicting itself, a close spiritual examination shows no contradiction between Romans and James -- both Paul and James were teaching the same Gospel.

In different contexts, the words belief or faith can mean a number of various things.

Someone may say, "I believe we will have rain tomorrow." This kind of belief is simply expressing an opinion or fact.

This type of belief, even when applied to religious truths, is not the kind of faith that saves. The devils believe that there is one God (a true Biblical fact) but this is not saving faith (James 2:19). It is only agreeing with a fact such as someone who believes two plus two equals four.

As James Adamson points out the word faith (pisteuo) "...is used sometimes to mean mere intellectual belief in God's existence, a faith which even the devils share.

It is this type of faith that James is attacking.

He rightly points out that one can distinguish between this type of "dead" faith and saving faith.
Saving faith will produce a changed life. A person who is saved is trusting Christ alone for their salvation, not their works (ref: Romans).

However, once saved by grace alone, a true Christian will want to practice good works such as feeding the poor (ref: James).

Not to earn salvation - which they already have - but because they are saved. (see Ephesians 2:8-10).

*Faith alone justifies, but the faith which justifies is not alone.

James is warning of a belief in facts - a type of faith that never results in a changed life.

Saving faith comes when someone stops trusting their own goodness or work (Phil. 2:8) and puts all their trust in Christ for salvation. And this type of faith will naturally exhibit good works.
Paul and James were defending two different errors.

Allow me to paint a picture for you: They are not antagonists facing each other with crossed swords; they stand back to back, confronting different foes of the Gospel.

James was warning of the wrong kind of faith -- that is mere intellectual assent or belief in facts. Even if these facts are true, this type of faith can not save.

Paul's concern is over a different error. Faith with the wrong object. Paul was addressing those who were trusting in their own works or obedience rather than trusting Christ alone for salvation. Satan is in this room, and he wants to separate us and divide us as Christians. We need to guard our hearts and minds to not let him confuse these separate arguments and begin to develop prejudice towards one another.

It is simple, actually, This kind of faith - faith in works - does produce a changed life. Like the Pharisees, people who believe that works are necessary for salvation are zealous to perform these works. But neither faith in facts nor faith in works saves. Ding Ding Ding - the revelational bells are ringing!

For both Paul and James, true salvation is found in believing, trusting, and having faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross alone for salvation.

This type of faith, true faith, will result in two things: eternal life and a desire to do good works.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 12, 2018

The word faith to trust, to have an assurance.

Jesus faith means that jesus trusts or has an assurance in someone. Who is jesus trusting? Me?

it makes no sense to say we have jesus faith.

What is important, is what is our faith or trust in.

is it in jesus?

or is it in self.

TruthTalk · Jan 12, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Our faith is in God of course and Jesus's shedding of blood for our sin, I have not made a decision yet and need to study more about this passage of scripture is saying, "from faith to faith." Romans1:17

From faith to faith.--It is by faith that man first lays hold on the gospel, and its latest product is a heightened and intensified faith. Apart from faith, the gospel remains null and void for the individual. It is not realised. But when it has been once realised and taken home to the man's self, its tendency is to confirm and strengthen that very faculty by which it was apprehended. It does that for which the disciples prayed when they said, "Lord, increase our faith" (Luke 17:5).

stonesoffire · Jan 12, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

How I see this, is that His faith, knowing the power that is in Father, through His own name, that faith has the substance in spiritual realms. Those were words recently spoken to me. If it's His faith making up lack of ours, in those realms, Father will always respond or is drawn to this kind of faith. It's perfect then.

This is just new to me EG. I was looking at it through a still dark glass until this morning. Then coupled with what I saw in the Word "ask", another thread, it came together.

The KJV isn't perfect in all it's archaic words, but it offers us our own seeking truth as being led by Holy Spirit.

In all we do, seek to see Jesus. Not self.

stonesoffire · Jan 12, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

We become one in spirit. No seperation.

stonesoffire · Jan 12, 2018

ruach said:

If not, would He have gone to the Cross?

John146 · Jan 12, 2018

ruach said:

Christ's faith justifies the believer. When one hears the gospel and believes, the faith of Jesus Christ justifies.

John146 · Jan 12, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 12, 2018

John146 said:

This makes no sense.

The word belief in your sentence (biblically) is the word faith.

ie, when one hears the gospel and has faith, Then he is justified.

Jesus faith in the father up to and through the cross is what allows us to be saved.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 12, 2018

John146 said:

Yep. And. The only way that is possible os for ME TO TRUST HIM. And for HIM TO GROW MY FAITH.

Not By Works

Senior Member

Poetic Member

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Poetic Member

ruach

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Senior Member

Poetic Member

Poetic Member

Poetic Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest