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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Ahh yes, you see in your quest to find fault/ignor the Law you have forgotten a vital thing that I already mentioned... That Law was mediated by the priesthood, in temple times by a human Levite priesthood, since Yahshua is High Priest now I am fully confident He can handle all priestly duties.

Hebrews 7:24-25,"but He, because He remains forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save completely those who draw near to יהוה through Him, ever living to make intercession for them."



"ever living to make intercession for them."
how could i forget when i am ever in my time of need for Him? :)
((and i'm glad you remind me))


the priesthood of Levi, their duties, and the requirement of the people to bring to Levi the sacrifices and the tithes are part of the jots and the tittles.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,306
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I suggest you read the word again and what I wrote....YOU just called JESUS a liar....he is the one that said the LAW and PROPHETS were UNTIL JOHN...take it up with him!

and PAY ATTENTION....I DID NOT SAY THE LAW was GONE......

Fairly clear D is the answer...........those who push the law have no understanding that it is for the LAWLESS who are LOST and it's purpose is to POINT TO THE CURE which is faith ins JESUS....
I did not call JESUS is a liar. Your post was Very VAGUE at best, with NO SCRIPTURE to back it up, and IF you are now referring to:

Luke 16:16-17 (NASB)
16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.


I find NO indication that you did not think it CEASED. Yes the were proclaimed above is in Italics in the NASB, which was put there to indicate the proper interpretation of the verse.

Here is MacArthur's Commentary on Luke 16:16-17:

John the Baptist’s ministry marked the turning point of redemptive history. Prior to that, the great truths of Christ and His kingdom were veiled in the types and shadows of the law, and promised in the writings of the prophets (cf. 1 Pet. 1:10-12). But John the Baptist introduced the King Himself (see note on Matt. 11:11). The Pharisees, who thought of themselves as experts in the law and the prophets, missed the significance of the very One to whom the law and the prophets pointed. everyone is pressing into it. Cf. Jeremiah 29:13. While the Pharisees were busy opposing Christ, sinners were entering His kingdom in droves. The language of this expression speaks of violent force—probably signifying the zeal with which sinners were seeking with all of their heart to enter the kingdom (see notes on 13:24; Isa. 55:6, 7; Matt. 11:12).


16:17 than for one tittle of the law to fail. Lest anyone think the statement in verse 16 meant He was declaring the law and the prophets annulled, He added this (see note on Matt. 5:18). The great moral principles of the law, the eternal truths contained in the law’s types and symbols, and the promises recorded by the prophets all remain in force and are not abrogated by the kingdom message.


The MacArthur Bible Commentary.
So, in conclusion, your answer A - is the proper answer, "The end of the age", IF you meant MORTAL MAN's AGE or DAY on this earth?

If you meant something Else, it was LOST in the Very Vague Post.

No brother, I am not trying to pick a fight, but honestly I found it difficult to understand just what you meant.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
43,595
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I did not call JESUS is a liar. Your post was Very VAGUE at best, with NO SCRIPTURE to back it up, and IF you are now referring to:

Luke 16:16-17 (NASB)
16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.


I find NO indication that you did not think it CEASED. Yes the were proclaimed above is in Italics in the NASB, which was put there to indicate the proper interpretation of the verse.

Here is MacArthur's Commentary on Luke 16:16-17:



So, in conclusion, your answer A - is the proper answer, "The end of the age", IF you meant MORTAL MAN's AGE or DAY on this earth?

If you meant something Else, it was LOST in the Very Vague Post.

No brother, I am not trying to pick a fight, but honestly I found it difficult to understand just what you meant.
You know me....instead of stating I am wrong, why not ask me to clarify.....and the point is clear....the time frame the Law and the Prophets lasted until JOHN (I.E>OLD covenant) we are currently under the covenant of Grace which was ushered in and ratified by Christ himself.....

that is the point....peace migo
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,306
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You know me....instead of stating I am wrong, why not ask me to clarify.....and the point is clear....the time frame the Law and the Prophets lasted until JOHN (I.E>OLD covenant) we are currently under the covenant of Grace which was ushered in and ratified by Christ himself.....

that is the point....peace migo
It was proclaimed until John the Baptist baptized Jesus, It primary purpose of making People aware of Sin, driving them to Receive Jesus as LORD, meaning Master, will always be there. If you think about it, even in the OLD TESTAMENT, the LAW was POINTING towards the Messiah, the ULTIMATE Sacrifice. It was NEVER ANNULLED as some people think.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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OUR LORD JESUS GAVE INSTRUCTIONS TO PREACH THE GOSPEL UNTO ALL NATIONS.


TO BAPTIZE AND TO TEACH OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. (matthew 28:18-20)


romans 10

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”


THOSE WHO DO NOT TEACH OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S COMMANDS WERE NOT SENT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL.


1 john 4

1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.


1 john 2
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word,love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

revelations 21
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

LIKE ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA, WHO AFTER ŔECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH, LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

WILL THEY BE CONSIGNED TO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR?

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE


MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)


DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;


“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.

OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES.

"GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED"

"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR"
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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I have no idea what tzitzit is so I don't wear one
So are you saying because I dont then I am sinning?
And if I never wear one before I die then I'm condemned?
LOL Ohh so if someone tells me stealing is a sin do I then say your condemming me? LOL This is nosense calling a sin a sin wis not condemnation... Condemnation saying one is not entering the kingdom...

ALSO you cut out the ppart of my quote that showed this:

Of course it is. Anything that is against His Instructions is sin...

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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how could i forget when i am ever in my time of need for Him? :)
((and i'm glad you remind me))


the priesthood of Levi, their duties, and the requirement of the people to bring to Levi the sacrifices and the tithes are part of the jots and the tittles.
Yes the yare a part of the jot and tittles... and Yahshua is the High Priest...

It was not the priesthood that was abolished, it was the Levitical priesthood, Yahshua is High Priest.... there is still a priesthood...

AND praise Yah! for this, the PERFECT High Priest, eternal and making intercession for His people
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
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I know what Torah, entole, and nomia is. I study the hebrew, aramaic, greek, I consult the septuagint for how words were translated by the learned of that time and I know all of Scripture very well, just because I dont see things from the same doctrine as you does not mean I ignore Scripture. Honestly could I not say the same for you?

I will tell you this, Yahshua is my Master, I do not let ANYONE get in between me and Him. As certian men have crept in, men that disagreed with Yaaqob (James) Messiah;s brother... spouters of lies if you will. The Messiah said His words would not pass and YHWH said Yahshua is THE PROPHET we must hear and obey. This is the path I seek. This is the doctrine I hold.
You DO ignore Scripture. I give you Scriptures that flat out disagree with you. And you brush them aside and don't discuss them. You don't seem at all open to correction on your doctrine. Because you ignore the things that would sharpen and correct you. You can say I ignore Scripture, but I don't. I constantly address Scripture that appears to disagree with my doctrine. There is pages and pages of me doing that on this thread. But what I have seen you do is ignore it and find a Scripture (ignoring the context) and post it like it completely nullifies other Scripture. You have your pet Scriptures that I've seen you post over and over. But you don't address the context of them. If you see anything that seems to indicate following the Law you're all over it. And anything that seems indicate you don't follow the Law. You ignore it. If you don't believe me, go ahead and ask other people in here, how they are experiencing you. I have no agenda with you. I'm fine either way. I'll probably be leaving this site for awhile soon. My schedule is starting to get busier. I'm about to start traveling and following the Spirit as He leads. But I wish you the best my friend.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,306
3,179
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You DO ignore Scripture. I give you Scriptures that flat out disagree with you. And you brush them aside and don't discuss them. You don't seem at all open to correction on your doctrine. Because you ignore the things that would sharpen and correct you. You can say I ignore Scripture, but I don't. I constantly address Scripture that appears to disagree with my doctrine. There is pages and pages of me doing that on this thread. But what I have seen you do is ignore it and find a Scripture (ignoring the context) and post it like it completely nullifies other Scripture. You have your pet Scriptures that I've seen you post over and over. But you don't address the context of them. If you see anything that seems to indicate following the Law you're all over it. And anything that seems indicate you don't follow the Law. You ignore it. If you don't believe me, go ahead and ask other people in here, how they are experiencing you. I have no agenda with you. I'm fine either way. I'll probably be leaving this site for awhile soon. My schedule is starting to get busier. I'm about to start traveling and following the Spirit as He leads. But I wish you the best my friend.

I am at that point with him also. I would say it is time to kick the dust from our sandals, and go on to some one else.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
687
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You DO ignore Scripture. I give you Scriptures that flat out disagree with you. And you brush them aside and don't discuss them. You don't seem at all open to correction on your doctrine. Because you ignore the things that would sharpen and correct you. You can say I ignore Scripture, but I don't. I constantly address Scripture that appears to disagree with my doctrine. There is pages and pages of me doing that on this thread. But what I have seen you do is ignore it and find a Scripture (ignoring the context) and post it like it completely nullifies other Scripture. You have your pet Scriptures that I've seen you post over and over. But you don't address the context of them. If you see anything that seems to indicate following the Law you're all over it. And anything that seems indicate you don't follow the Law. You ignore it. If you don't believe me, go ahead and ask other people in here, how they are experiencing you. I have no agenda with you. I'm fine either way. I'll probably be leaving this site for awhile soon. My schedule is starting to get busier. I'm about to start traveling and following the Spirit as He leads. But I wish you the best my friend.
I could just as easily say the same about you. Any Scripture that does not "fit" your doctrine in either ignored or twisted to fit your view...

The Messiah is my Master, I seek to follow Him and His words. Maybe the spouter of lies has "caught you with trickery"

The Sent One we must hear and obey according to YHWH (Deut 18:18-19) says this:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Yet even though heaven and earth has not passed you tell me a doctrine that is in direct oppisition to this...

Maybe Daniel 7:25 explains why you think this...

BOttom line Yahshua is the King and Judge, when I stand before Him I want to say that I sought Him and let no man stand in between us... as I authenticate all prophets of YHWH according to His word, He give qualifications, I apply those. I apply His words, YHWH said He would send One to hear and obey... he who has ears let him hear...

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
687
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John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I could just as easily say the same about you. Any Scripture that does not "fit" your doctrine in either ignored or twisted to fit your view...

The Messiah is my Master, I seek to follow Him and His words. Maybe the spouter of lies has "caught you with trickery"

The Sent One we must hear and obey according to YHWH (Deut 18:18-19) says this:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Yet even though heaven and earth has not passed you tell me a doctrine that is in direct oppisition to this...

Maybe Daniel 7:25 explains why you think this...

BOttom line Yahshua is the King and Judge, when I stand before Him I want to say that I sought Him and let no man stand in between us... as I authenticate all prophets of YHWH according to His word, He give qualifications, I apply those. I apply His words, YHWH said He would send One to hear and obey... he who has ears let him hear...

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”
Yep taking a few Scriptures out of context once again.

Matt. 5:18 is not a Scripture that commands BELIEVERS to follow the Law. It's a Scripture that says it still exists. But we are DEAD to it. The old ways are gone.

Revelation 21:1 is just you proof texting.

Sure be lead by Him, but He's also in the believers around you. If you don't believe that. Why do you try to correct people?

John 12:48 - "The word that I have spoken." You are conflating this Scripture. It has nothing to do with the LAW.

John 12:4 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

By your own words you think people are sinning right now. People who don't follow the Law. Yet these are people who believe in Him. So are YOU believing the WORD He has spoken?

Acts 3:19-23 Yes follow everything HE says, and He says BELIEVE on HIM. But you're conflating this Scripture if you think this is about the Law. It's about Jesus.

Here's some Scripture about Him:

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. (Luke 24:27)

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. (Luke 16:16)
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
687
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Yep taking a few Scriptures out of context once again.

Matt. 5:18 is not a Scripture that commands BELIEVERS to follow the Law. It's a Scripture that says it still exists. But we are DEAD to it. The old ways are gone.

Revelation 21:1 is just you proof texting.

Sure be lead by Him, but He's also in the believers around you. If you don't believe that. Why do you try to correct people?

John 12:48 - "The word that I have spoken." You are conflating this Scripture. It has nothing to do with the LAW.

John 12:4 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

By your own words you think people are sinning right now. People who don't follow the Law. Yet these are people who believe in Him. So are YOU believing the WORD He has spoken?

Acts 3:19-23 Yes follow everything HE says, and He says BELIEVE on HIM. But you're conflating this Scripture if you think this is about the Law. It's about Jesus.

Here's some Scripture about Him:

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. (Luke 24:27)

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. (Luke 16:16)
Well you gave commentary in my name a bit there huh?

Im fine with the view that Mat 5:18 simply means the Law is not gone, but you said ti's not to be followed... LOL!!!

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.”

Ohh and you translation of Romans 10:4 is not true to the koine greek...

The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os

From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.



Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;



Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."



Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."



1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."



1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."



If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.



Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)



HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.



James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”



James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”



1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”



1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”



Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)



HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.



Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”



Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”



Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."



Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."



The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…



1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”



1 Timothy 1:5-7, " But the goal* of our instruction/command is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."



*goal is word #G5056 télos - Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)



HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
687
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Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood.”
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Well you gave commentary in my name a bit there huh?

Im fine with the view that Mat 5:18 simply means the Law is not gone, but you said ti's not to be followed... LOL!!!

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.”

Ohh and you translation of Romans 10:4 is not true to the koine greek...

The word translated “end” is word#G5056, τέλος, telos, tel'-os

From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid):—+ continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.



Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;



Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."



Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."



1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."



1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."



If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.



Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)



HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.



James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”



James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”



1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”



1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”



Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)



HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.



Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”



Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”



Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."



Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."



The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…



1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”



1 Timothy 1:5-7, " But the goal* of our instruction/command is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."



*goal is word #G5056 télos - Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)



HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.
Okay well now we are discussing. Thanks for not just ignoring it.

In regards to following the law. The entire law is fulfilled in loving one another. Yes or no?

As far as your telos commentary that's interesting. With this new information, I see that Scripture as Christ is the end outcome/goal for the Law. Which lines up with plenty of Scripture.

Galatians 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Are you justified by faith?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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Okay well now we are discussing. Thanks for not just ignoring it.

In regards to following the law. The entire law is fulfilled in loving one another. Yes or no?
It is HOWEVER it is YHWH's standard of love. We can ask 1,000,000 people waht love is we will get 1,000,000 different answers. If we ask YHWH 1,000,000 times what love is it is the same answer EVERY time, and this is explined in His Law and expounded on by Yahshua.

Just being nice/loving according to what we think is love is not fulfilling the Law... Doing as He says is.

Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459 Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

As far as your telos that's interesting. With this new information, I see that Scripture as Christ is the end outcome for the Law. Which lines up with plenty of Scripture.
Well you may "See" it that way but telos does not mean end as in "over" or "finished" it is "goal"

If it means end in Rom 10:4 then it means the same here:

James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”

James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”

But Im the one who ignores and twists right? Honestly Cee it cant be applied differently each time to fit your doctrine.

Galatians 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Are you justified by faith?
LOL. This is the battle cry, anyone that says obedience is right and the Law is not abolished is accused of "works salvation!!!!"

NONSENSE!
There are two ditches on the road, legalism and hyper grace, between those 2 ditches is a MOUNTAIN; that mountain is the teachings of Yahshua the Messiah.

Faith and Works go together perfectly:

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

Revelation 14:12 - Parallel Verses

The Scriptures - Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Yah and the belief of יהושע.

New American Standard Bible - Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

and you really did a number on Acts 3 quote of Deut 18...

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
687
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Psalm 119:44-45, "That I might guard Your Law continually, Forever and ever; That I might walk in liberty, For I have sought Your orders;"

James 1:22-25, “And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror, for he looks at himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what he was like. But he that looked into the perfect Law of liberty, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing.”

James 2:8-12, “If you truly accomplish the sovereign Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you do well, but if you show partiality, you commit sin, being found guilty by the Law as transgressors. For whoever shall guard all the Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Exo 20:14) also said, “Do not murder.” (Exo 20:13) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of Law. So speak and so do as those who are to be judged by the Law of liberty.”
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
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It is HOWEVER it is YHWH's standard of love. We can ask 1,000,000 people waht love is we will get 1,000,000 different answers. If we ask YHWH 1,000,000 times what love is it is the same answer EVERY time, and this is explined in His Law and expounded on by Yahshua.

Just being nice/loving according to what we think is love is not fulfilling the Law... Doing as He says is.

Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459 Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness



Well you may "See" it that way but telos does not mean end as in "over" or "finished" it is "goal"

If it means end in Rom 10:4 then it means the same here:

James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”

James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”

But Im the one who ignores and twists right? Honestly Cee it cant be applied differently each time to fit your doctrine.



LOL. This is the battle cry, anyone that says obedience is right and the Law is not abolished is accused of "works salvation!!!!"

NONSENSE!
There are two ditches on the road, legalism and hyper grace, between those 2 ditches is a MOUNTAIN; that mountain is the teachings of Yahshua the Messiah.

Faith and Works go together perfectly:

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

Revelation 14:12 - Parallel Verses

The Scriptures - Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Yah and the belief of יהושע.

New American Standard Bible - Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

and you really did a number on Acts 3 quote of Deut 18...

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”
You are all over the place. End outcome... purpose... goal... it's not different. The purpose of the law is to lead people to faith in Christ. You laugh at my question, but I noticed you didn't say yes. Works reveal faith. They are not faith. The Law served it's purpose to lead us to Christ. And now we are lead by the Spirit.