Not By Works

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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sorry i did not know i was talking to someone at sunday school . please forgive me.

for not answering you again. but please read what i have already written ,
ask god to help you see, using the rhema.
thank you

Since he portion of the POST did not show up, I know you are talking to a person that is on my IGNORE list. I guarantee, he EARNED to right to be on that list.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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lightbearer thinks one has to keep the Sabbath to be saved.

he used to talk about it, until I began calling him out, then he stopped , and started to deny saying it.

so, it is ongoing thing with him and i

Ok..


Maybe he could share the scriptures where Jesus or His Apostles instructed the Church how to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.



Or



Maybe he could share with us, how he Himself observes the Sabbath under the New Covenant.





JPT
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,003
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So how much love does one have to see?

Mr. @VCO think on this.... as someone once told me

A command that everyone keeps is superfluous, and a reward that everyone receives for a virtue that everyone has is nonsense.

Most of the new testament letters are filled with exhortations.

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)

One point is clear here. Good works are not seen as the EVIDENCE that we are God's workmanship, but rather as the expected result of that workmanship. Whether this result will be achieved is not stated!!!!

Notice: "should walk". This verb is "peripatesomen": 1 person plural aorist active SUBJUNCTIVE, the mood of potential, not reality.

God does not drag anyone down the path of obedience.

I will not quarrel that where there is justifying faith, that naturally, signs of regenerate life should exist too. This is a reasonable assumption for any Christian unless he has been converted on his death bed!

However, it is quite wrong, and another thing altogether, to claim that a life of dedicated obedience and the consistent display of the love of God is guaranteed by regeneration, or even that such works as they are must be visible to a human observer.

God alone may be able to detect the signs of life from regeneration in some of His children.

THINK, PLEASE. The GOD Given Agape LOVE, does not exist in the NON-Christians. A baby Christian does not produce much AGAPE LOVE, while as Spiritually Mature will produce NOTICEABLY MORE. IT IS FRUIT that you must look for, and USUALLY the first Season, a sprout forms, will NEVER produce FRUIT. If someone says he or she has been a Christian most of their life, and STILL NO FRUIT, you can be sure that is a pretend CHRISTIAN, and sooner or later they will fall away. Is that plain enough.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Look at this thread. What people call truth is subjective.
Funny how people make the wrong point. Truth is objective, but we see it only
by seeing Jesus on the last day.

And what GOD CALLS ABSOLUTE TRUTH IS WISDOM FROM GOD.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Exegeted for you in context

Verse 28: “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?”

John 6:29: “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” Many take this to bolster their idea of “faith is a gift of God” (at the heart of their “total depravity” Calvinism point). What is the “work of God” in John 6:29? Is it faith, belief on Christ?

No it is not!!!

It is important to note that John 6:29 does not say, “It is the work of God when you believe on him whom he hath sent.”

No, the work of God is not the faith/“believe” part.

Read in context……

In the context, the work of God is the miracle of the Lord Jesus feeding the 5,000. Again, those miracles were designed to bring Israel to faith in Jesus Christ.

“This” is a reference to the miracles.
So to the total depravity view John 6:29 does not claim that God works in us to generate faith.
It rather affirms that Father God was working through His Son.

As I stated in prior posts, faith is proclaimed over works.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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And what GOD CALLS ABSOLUTE TRUTH IS WISDOM FROM GOD.
Hi VCO,

I did a thought experiment. It comes from the world of searching for absolutes, something that
can be said or proclaimed that is definately true in our limited experience world.

And my conclusion is God is the source of truth, of creation, of existence, so the closer you get to Him
the more truth is seen clearly and the further away the more relative and confused it becomes.

Now in this realisation, truth is relative to the Lord and does not conform to our idea of absolutes.
So a sinner will be convinced they are ok, and it will all go well, because that is how they cope and live.
And a saint who knows the Lord and walks in His ways, sees the glories of the King will know they are ok,
because they walk with the creator.

Only one is right, because only one is the true source of all Truth.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
THINK, PLEASE. The GOD Given Agape LOVE, does not exist in the NON-Christians. A baby Christian does not produce much AGAPE LOVE, while as Spiritually Mature will produce NOTICEABLY MORE. IT IS FRUIT that you must look for, and USUALLY the first Season, a sprout forms, will NEVER produce FRUIT. If someone says he or she has been a Christian most of their life, and STILL NO FRUIT, you can be sure that is a pretend CHRISTIAN, and sooner or later they will fall away. Is that plain enough.
STILL NO FRUIT, you can be sure that is a pretend CHRISTIAN
So one fruit is enough then or how many I wonder......so that person produces a fruit the day before they die, but all the rest of their life we must regard them as unsaved.

Draw the line of your theology to its logical conclusion.

Fruit is a result of abiding.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Exegeted for you in context

Verse 28: “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?”

John 6:29: “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” Many take this to bolster their idea of “faith is a gift of God” (at the heart of their “total depravity” Calvinism point). What is the “work of God” in John 6:29? Is it faith, belief on Christ?
No it is not!!!
I do not know what happened to you. Your still fighting Calvin and their doctrines.

This is not a calvin issue.

Thus you have utterly no idea what I am trying to say. Because your blinders are on,

Want proof? I NEVER SAID MY PHYSICAL FAITH was Gods work. I SAID IT IS THE WORK OF GOD THAT I HAVE FAITH TO BEGIN WITH.

But you can not hear that, because you are bent on proving calvin wrong, so you can not understand or hear a word I am saying.



It is important to note that John 6:29 does not say, “It is the work of God when you believe on him whom he hath sent.”

No, the work of God is not the faith/“believe” part.

Read in context……

In the context, the work of God is the miracle of the Lord Jesus feeding the 5,000. Again, those miracles were designed to bring Israel to faith in Jesus Christ.

“This” is a reference to the miracles.
So to the total depravity view John 6:29 does not claim that God works in us to generate faith.
It rather affirms that Father God was working through His Son.

As I stated in prior posts, faith is proclaimed over works.
Yes lets look at the passage.

1. The people wanted physical food
2. Jesus said eat the food he came to give, which endures to eternal Life
3. They (still not understanding) say what work can we do
4. Jesus said it is the work of God we believe (you added the word “when”which I never even insisted or said the verse was saying, Which again just proves your tryng to read what you THINK I am saying and not listening to me at all.
5. Jesus goes on to explain ALL THE WORK which has been done, is being done, and will be done, to help a person have the ability to have faith in him (faith is not something which just happens. God works to bring you to faith, Some believe, and some do not
Jesus did the same work for all the people there. Only 11 that we know of did not walk away. Does that make the work of God fail? Say it is not so.


Instead of assumng you know what I am saying, Sit still for a minute and try to read what I am saying without your calvin blinders on.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,145
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Why do people assume they know what people are saying, Instead of assuming, why do you not ASK so you understand.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I do not know what happened to you. Your still fighting Calvin and their doctrines.

This is not a calvin issue.

Thus you have utterly no idea what I am trying to say. Because your blinders are on,

Want proof? I NEVER SAID MY PHYSICAL FAITH was Gods work. I SAID IT IS THE WORK OF GOD THAT I HAVE FAITH TO BEGIN WITH.

But you can not hear that, because you are bent on proving calvin wrong, so you can not understand or hear a word I am saying.





Yes lets look at the passage.

1. The people wanted physical food
2. Jesus said eat the food he came to give, which endures to eternal Life
3. They (still not understanding) say what work can we do
4. Jesus said it is the work of God we believe (you added the word “when”which I never even insisted or said the verse was saying, Which again just proves your tryng to read what you THINK I am saying and not listening to me at all.
5. Jesus goes on to explain ALL THE WORK which has been done, is being done, and will be done, to help a person have the ability to have faith in him (faith is not something which just happens. God works to bring you to faith, Some believe, and some do not
Jesus did the same work for all the people there. Only 11 that we know of did not walk away. Does that make the work of God fail? Say it is not so.


Instead of assumng you know what I am saying, Sit still for a minute and try to read what I am saying without your calvin blinders on.
You are right I have no idea what you are saying, lets leave at that.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
THINK, PLEASE. The GOD Given Agape LOVE, does not exist in the NON-Christians. A baby Christian does not produce much AGAPE LOVE, while as Spiritually Mature will produce NOTICEABLY MORE. IT IS FRUIT that you must look for, and USUALLY the first Season, a sprout forms, will NEVER produce FRUIT. If someone says he or she has been a Christian most of their life, and STILL NO FRUIT, you can be sure that is a pretend CHRISTIAN, and sooner or later they will fall away. Is that plain enough.
A mother will sacrifice their life for their children. A friend will die for their friends.
This is agape love and is well known in all societies and all cultures. It is the bonding that happens
between people who really know and love one another.

Maybe you are unaware of this.
Jesus emphasised though people will die for those close to them, none die for their enemies, but
Jesus will. The reason for dying for ones enemies is complex, but it is about blessing when you are cursed,
uplifting when you are broken down. And this is very hard, and only is possible when you are truly healed
within and Christ love is planted, without guilt or shame and a desire to let His love flow.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
Why do people assume they know what people are saying, Instead of assuming, why do you not ASK so you understand.
This is a funny question, because some members refuse to say what they mean if it makes them look bad.
If a participant is only interested in domination and not discussion, conversations are not actually going
on, just posturing. You notice this when both sides cannot agree between themselves what the other
is saying, as if this is some mystery.

But if truth is not the goal, only I have the truth and you are deceived etc. things quickly grind to a halt, lol :)

You also notice this when individuals do not use doctrinal well worked out theological positions to declare
their allegiance, but would rather hide and obscure where they really stand. And the reason is because one
can appear more credible and powerful, if one stands for some unknown all conquering army when one is
just a pip squeak :LOL:
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,243
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Why do I and everyone else always say that the law was never given to show us how sinful we are and are in need of Christ?
We quote the verses in Galatians to prove our case. We also see in our own lives that we have violated the rules of God, therefore we are under the curse of the law (death) UNTIL we come to Christ.

BUT: Why does God say this:

Deu 30:11-14 NIV
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

IS NOT TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU?

okay then.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,003
2,859
113
You seem to be deliberately misconstruing the relation of faith and works. There are good and bad works. Faith generates good works. Non Christians can generate bad works. Like Jesus said by their fruits (works) you shall know them. Their works define what they are.



AND WORKS OF ANY KIND, cannot add ONE iota to your SALVATION. However, they can be valuable for the advancement of the KINGDOM, and they IF DONE FOR THE RIGHT MOTIVE, "LOVE FOR HIM AND OTHERS", it can earn you a Nonperishable Laurel Wreath CROWN.



To be worn by the Winning Athlete, such as the Olympic Style of Games that PAUL was so fond of.

Revelation 2:10 (HCSB)
10 Don’t be afraid of what you are about to suffer. Look, the Devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will have affliction for 10 days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

1 Corinthians 9:25 (HCSB)
25 Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. However, they do it to receive a crown that will fade away, but we a crown that will never fade away.

Philippians 4:1 (HCSB)
1 So then, my brothers, ⌊you are⌋ dearly loved and longed for—my joy and crown. In this manner stand firm in the Lord, dear friends.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 (HCSB)
19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of boasting in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? Is it not you?

2 Timothy 4:8 (HCSB)
8 There is reserved for me in the future the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on that day, and not only to me, but to all those who have loved His appearing.

James 1:12 (HCSB)
12 A man who endures trials is blessed, because when he passes the test he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him.

1 Peter 5:4 (HCSB)
4 And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

NOW the CROWNS are for those who RUN THE RACE set before them.

HOWEVER SALVATION is a FREE GIFT, and NEVER CAN BE A CROWN.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
Why do I and everyone else always say that the law was never given to show us how sinful we are and are in need of Christ?
We quote the verses in Galatians to prove our case. We also see in our own lives that we have violated the rules of God, therefore we are under the curse of the law (death) UNTIL we come to Christ.

BUT: Why does God say this:

Deu 30:11-14 NIV
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

IS NOT TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU?

okay then.
This is a critical point.
Legalists say, you cannot keep this 24/7 and if you fail once you deny Jesus and lose your salvation.
They then say, no grace says all sin is removed, faith alone is everything.

Gods answer was the temple and sacrifices. Yes you will fail, have issues, but you can grow and work
through them. You grow, get older, mature and then go to meet the Lord. There is a road to walk and
a way to follow , and lessons to learn. Things change and progress.

But the sinners refuse to get right with God, because what the point we cannot be like Jesus.
But Jesus says, yes you can, through walking, on step at a time, and when issues arise working through
them. Every parent knows this is how children learn to walk.

But there are believers who have a heart of stone, who sin swills within like poison and will not touch
such things, so the real gospel is death to them, and the end to their religious farce. And these folk
will shout the loudest at the hypocrisy of others, and get angry at them pointing out real sin, because
that way they can stay deluded and secure. And it will be so until judgement, because until they resolve
their hearts in Christ nothing is real, and the gospel is not for them, for they are under grace and no change.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Wow EG......grace is love, it His love towards us .....that is why it is by Grace (because He loved us enough to pay the price) we did not deserve this act but He did it anyway.

Faith is the instrument, it is us being persuaded of this truth and trusting this truth and the promises that come with it apart from works.

AMEN, AMEN! Thank you EG.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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grace is Gods mercy, His reaching out to sinful man to lead Him back to heaven and into His will and ways.

Ofcourse if you do not see ones destination is heaven with the Father and walking in His ways, then
mercy is just accepting sin and sinfulness and letting man rot in his putrid filth. Totally insane idea.
But what is wrong with a sinful heart if that is all you have got and you think you are saved?