Not By Works

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,929
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It looks like the RED X 1551728412172.png is BACK with the same M.O. and a different name, he must be trying out for the Master of RUDENESS. He must be 12, going on 11.


1 Corinthians 13:4-5 (CSBBible)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. Love does not envy, is not boastful, is not arrogant,
5 is not rude, is not self-seeking, is not irritable, and does not keep a record of wrongs.
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,806
473
83
What does that have to do with anything?

Paul was quite intimately aware of who was being saved.....and who was not.

  • I myself should become disqualified.


Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27-27




JPT
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
What does that have to do with anything?

Paul was quite intimately aware of who was being saved.....and who was not.
1. You're not Paul.

2. Paul wrote Romans....Which I quoted. Surely he knew what he was talking about.
Is it our job and goal in life to go around declaring who is saved and who is not?

I'd say that there's a transformation in the life of a saved person.
I'd say that somehow they demonstrate the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
But I'd never make a determination as to their salvation...

Paul said even HE might not make it to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.



Disqualified....some verses say castaway...
Salvation, to me, seems to be a very serious matter.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,077
2,929
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Legalists say, you cannot keep this 24/7 and if you fail once you deny Jesus and lose your salvation.
They then say, no grace says all sin is removed, faith alone is everything.
I would say that legalists say that you can keep this 24/7.
That is why they are called legalists
Or as some like to say "Pharisees"

Those who say you cannot keep 24/7 I would say are realist's.
That does not necessarily mean that they want to sin but know they can sin.

I'm not aware of anyone here who you define as legalists have said "If you fail once and deny Jesus then you lose your salvation"

What I have seen is that they say "You break one law then you break them all"
Maybe by inference or infact said "If you rely on 24/7 keeping to be saved and yet do not then by your definition you have lost your salvation"

What I have found is that those I would define as legalists (hard core ones) when challenged about sin, the sin of omission or unknown sins they excuse this as being "I did no I sinned therefore it does not count"

To me that's a very lame excuse.
Sin is sin.
Everyone of us should be seeking God to reveal in us when we have sinned but don't know we have.

The goats ask Jesus "When did we?

Jesus replies “I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me"

The fact is that grace covers all sin and faith alone is everything.
Paul addressed this in Romans.
Yes where sin abounds so does grace, but for goodness sake don't use it as an excuse to sin. That's not the purpose of grace.
It's purpose is to set you free from it.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,077
2,929
113
But the sinners refuse to get right with God, because what the point we cannot be like Jesus.
Of course sinners refuse to get right with God.
They don't want to be like Jesus, because they have no affiliation with Jesus and no desire to do so.

Do you believe in Jesus yet still sin?
If you answer yes then you are a sinner.

To be honest when it comes to a believer when they say they are sinners and I delve in and find out what's going on I would say.

"Now you are not a sinner, you are walking in a way that is contrary to your new nature in Jesus. God does not see you as a sinner, but he does not want you walking this way. He sees your sin and wants you to confess it and ask him for help"
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
LOL

I said that the two sentences are making the same statement...
and if you don't think so,,,,,to explain HOW they are different....since they are NOT.

When I ask you to explain something it's to find out what YOU think about it.
I don't come here to learn from anyone here....I've learned from good sources.
However, one could always learn something new....but this is not why I ask.

So now maybe you understand and will keep this in mind.

And James is talking about FAITH....he was with Jesus throughout His ministry and understands what FAITH is.

James said FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
NO WORKS.......NO FAITH.
Okay, I am partial to Italians I will admit.:)

Let see where we have agreement and where we disagree on James, since I really appreciate that you see that faith is faith.

Now, I have am going to a heavy work phase but when I have available time I will post various big pictures of James and see where there is consensus.

I hope it will be fruitful.....since everyone here is about fruit LOL
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
It looks like the RED X View attachment 195438 is BACK with the same M.O. and a different name, he must be trying out for the Master of RUDENESS. He must be 12, going on 11.


1 Corinthians 13:4-5 (CSBBible)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. Love does not envy, is not boastful, is not arrogant,
5 is not rude, is not self-seeking, is not irritable, and does not keep a record of wrongs.
They seem to be having a very difficult time keeping this troll from coming back, he/she must be very tech savvy.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
1,765
786
113
1. You're not Paul.

2. Paul wrote Romans....Which I quoted. Surely he knew what he was talking about.
Is it our job and goal in life to go around declaring who is saved and who is not?

I'd say that there's a transformation in the life of a saved person.
I'd say that somehow they demonstrate the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
But I'd never make a determination as to their salvation...

Paul said even HE might not make it to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.



Disqualified....some verses say castaway...
Salvation, to me, seems to be a very serious matter.
Disqualified.....from preaching. Salvation has been accomplished in Paul for time and eternity.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
1. You're not Paul.

2. Paul wrote Romans....Which I quoted. Surely he knew what he was talking about.
Is it our job and goal in life to go around declaring who is saved and who is not?

I'd say that there's a transformation in the life of a saved person.
I'd say that somehow they demonstrate the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
But I'd never make a determination as to their salvation...

Paul said even HE might not make it to the end.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.



Disqualified....some verses say castaway...
Salvation, to me, seems to be a very serious matter.
@cv5

You disagree???
With WHAT!

You have to agree that you're not Paul....
You don't agree that born again persons have some transformation in their lives?
You think our goal in life is to go around declaring who is saved and who isn't?
You don't agree with 1 Corinthians....an epistle we're SURE Paul wrote?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
@GodsGrace101

Okay a quick question to start?

Do you agree/believe that James as written to only believers in mind, that he views his audience as fellow brothers in Christ.
To further elaborate he is not straddling two lanes of believers and unbelievers.
Do you know what I mean?
Agree disagree?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Amen! We have to cooperate.
I agree we respond to the revelation, this can be seen all throughout scripture.

Those who do not respond suppress the truth (revelation) in unrighteousness.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
@GodsGrace101

Okay a quick question to start?

Do you agree/believe that James as written to only believers in mind, that he views his audience as fellow brothers in Christ.
To further elaborate he is not straddling two lanes of believers and unbelievers.
Do you know what I mean?
Agree disagree?
James, the brother of Jesus, was writing to the Jews that had decided to become Christian...or to believe in the Messiah. So, yes, I'd say he was writing to fellow believers. All the letters were written to a congregation of believers,,,,maybe a small group, maybe a church. To Jewish Christians that had become scattered to different parts of the area,,,,maybe Syria or other such places.

I don't understand what you mean by "straddling two lanes of believers and unbelievers".
Unbelievers could always have had ACCESS to any letter, but the directed audience was Jews that believed Jesus was the awaited Messiah.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I agree that we are persuaded. Jesus balances this with "I chose you"

As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world
John 15:19

When one looks back at ones life, and sees how lost in sin and circumstance, one knows God drew
us out of this. So when we think we chose, it was the Lord building the case, leading us through,
establishing faith, giving us rebirth, showing us the way.

The mystery is the word is spoken and the chosen respond, those who listen to Jesus and follow.
So much of our convictions, our choices are things that life dictates we must follow.
So do we chose or is it inevitable? Could I refuse Christ when I know He is the Saviour, the Son
of the Living God, the word made flesh?
I agree in part.

God would have all come to repentance and belief.
We are persuaded by what we hear and the revelation that God gives to everyone. (Romans 1)
A person has the ability to respond to that revelation towards God or they can suppress and deny.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
James, the brother of Jesus, was writing to the Jews that had decided to become Christian...or to believe in the Messiah. So, yes, I'd say he was writing to fellow believers. All the letters were written to a congregation of believers,,,,maybe a small group, maybe a church. To Jewish Christians that had become scattered to different parts of the area,,,,maybe Syria or other such places.

I don't understand what you mean by "straddling two lanes of believers and unbelievers".
Unbelievers could always have had ACCESS to any letter, but the directed audience was Jews that believed Jesus was the awaited Messiah.
I made the statement "straddling" because I have read many times not sure if it was here, that he new there were also unbelievers in the group.
However I so no call to conversion in the letters and because of all the reasons you state above.
Perfect we agree.
Okay that was easy.:)
Next..thinking...:unsure:
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,994
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HBG. Pa. USA
Disqualified.....from preaching. Salvation has been accomplished in Paul for time and eternity.
CONTEXT shows a disqualification alright, but not from preaching.

It implies no finish of the race. One crown to be awarded. An nonperishable one (everlasting life). And this my friend is only given to those who finish.

Contexts implies no crown because the race is not finished due to a disqualification because one has not prepared. Follow along please.

1Cor 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Partaker of what? The Gospel with you Paul says.
If someone is not partaking of the Gospel are they saved?
NO they are not.
"Might be a partaker" is being spoken in the subjunctive mood. The mood of possibilities. In other words His partaking of the Gospel is not a given. There is a possibility that he will not. This comes out even clearer as we continue.

In respect to verse 23's proclamation Paul continues in context.

1Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

So run that ye might obtain.
Obtain what? Salvation through the life in Christ; the Gospel.

1Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

So let us Run temperate in all things that we might obtain the crown that is imperishable; eternal life through Christ.

1Cor 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

I therefore so run; temperate in all things that I might obtain the crown that is imperishable; eternal life, Paul says.

1Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul says "Lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Castaway; Disqualified from what? The Race he himself is running that He might obtain the crown that is imperishable; eternal life,
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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Disqualified.....from preaching. Salvation has been accomplished in Paul for time and eternity.
Of course you'd say this because you believe in OSAS.
And I'm sure you could find some commentator that would agree.....

Here's one I found that I agree with and there are many more...

......He called them to the combat; he declared the kind of combat in which they were to engage; he proclaimed the qualifications necessary in the combatants, and the laws of the battle. Withal, he encouraged the combatants, by placing the crowns and palms full in their view.”

The expression, αυτος αδοκιμος γενωμαι, rendered, I myself should be a cast-away, or disapproved, signifies one, who, when tried in the manner described above, was found not to be of the character and station required by the established regulations.


“Besides the previous trial, the judges, after the combat was over, made a most accurate and impartial scrutiny into the manner in which the victors had contended, in order to find whether they had contended νομιμως, (2 Timothy 2:5,) according to the laws of the combat.

. And if, on trial, it appeared that they had failed in the least particular, they were cast. In consequence of this sentence, they were denied the crown, and sometimes beat out of the stadium with disgrace. Such contenders, whether they were cast before or after the combat, were αδοκιμοι, persons not approved. Wherefore, to avoid that disgrace, the apostle, who was a combatant in the Christian race, as well as a herald, was careful to qualify himself for the combat; and in combating, to observe all the laws of the combat, lest, having proclaimed these laws, he should be found not approved himself.

This the apostle said to stir up all, but especially the ministers of the gospel, to the greatest diligence in acquiring habits of self-government and purity, not only that they might secure to themselves the crown of righteousness, but that they might be patterns to their people.” — See Macknight, and West’s Pindar.

It is justly observed here by a late writer, that this single passage may give us a just notion of the Scriptural doctrine of election and reprobation; and clearly shows us, that particular persons are not in Holy Writ represented as elected, absolutely and unconditionally, to eternal life; or predestinated, absolutely and unconditionally, to eternal death:


but that believers in general are elected to enjoy the Christian privileges on earth, which, if they abuse, those very elect persons will become reprobate. St. Paul was certainly an elect person, if ever there was one: and yet he declares it was possible he himself might become a reprobate. Nay, he would actually have become such, if he had not thus kept his body under, even though he had been so long an elect person, a Christian, and an apostle.

source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_corinthians/9-26.htm




REPROBATE:

morally unprincipled; depraved
2. Christianity
destined or condemned to eternal punishment in hell
noun
3.
an unprincipled, depraved, or damned person
4.
a disreputable or roguish person
the old reprobate
verb (transitive)
5.
to disapprove of; condemn
6.
(of God) to destine, consign, or condemn to eternal punishment in hell



source: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/reprobate
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I made the statement "straddling" because I have read many times not sure if it was here, that he new there were also unbelievers in the group.
However I so no call to conversion in the letters and because of all the reasons you state above.
Perfect we agree.
Okay that was easy.:)
Next..thinking...:unsure:
There could always have been unbelievers in the group...maybe just curious persons that went to meetings and/or to a church or gathering to find out what Christianity was all about.

Many followed Jesus for this reason too. Many had gathered to hear Him speak on that hillside near the Sea of Galilee only to discover for themselves what He preached but with no real intent or interest.
Same as in John 6....many followed Him but many also left.

However, the letters were intended for believers...
Agreed.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,115
14,770
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2 Thessalonians 2:14
He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Did God not give you the desire to seek Him first :)...
God called you , you said " Here I am Lord " and you drew near to Him , and Him to you...
He called you to seek Him \:)/...xox...
No man comes unto the Son unless drawn of the Father.......None SEEK of their own free will according to Romans......I cannot say it enough....IT IS ALL GOD/CHRIST or it is false.....end of story....He measures out faith, he testifies by creation, he calls, he saves he justifies, he seals, he sanctifies positionally, he enlightens and opens the eyes, he convicts, he makes real, etc......IT IS ALL GOD and without his direct involvement NO MAN would ever be saved
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,115
14,770
113
Of course you'd say this because you believe in OSAS.
And I'm sure you could find some commentator that would agree.....

Here's one I found that I agree with and there are many more...

......He called them to the combat; he declared the kind of combat in which they were to engage; he proclaimed the qualifications necessary in the combatants, and the laws of the battle. Withal, he encouraged the combatants, by placing the crowns and palms full in their view.”

The expression, αυτος αδοκιμος γενωμαι, rendered, I myself should be a cast-away, or disapproved, signifies one, who, when tried in the manner described above, was found not to be of the character and station required by the established regulations.

“Besides the previous trial, the judges, after the combat was over, made a most accurate and impartial scrutiny into the manner in which the victors had contended, in order to find whether they had contended νομιμως, (2 Timothy 2:5,) according to the laws of the combat.

. And if, on trial, it appeared that they had failed in the least particular, they were cast. In consequence of this sentence, they were denied the crown, and sometimes beat out of the stadium with disgrace. Such contenders, whether they were cast before or after the combat, were αδοκιμοι, persons not approved. Wherefore, to avoid that disgrace, the apostle, who was a combatant in the Christian race, as well as a herald, was careful to qualify himself for the combat; and in combating, to observe all the laws of the combat, lest, having proclaimed these laws, he should be found not approved himself.

This the apostle said to stir up all, but especially the ministers of the gospel, to the greatest diligence in acquiring habits of self-government and purity, not only that they might secure to themselves the crown of righteousness, but that they might be patterns to their people.” — See Macknight, and West’s Pindar.

It is justly observed here by a late writer, that this single passage may give us a just notion of the Scriptural doctrine of election and reprobation; and clearly shows us, that particular persons are not in Holy Writ represented as elected, absolutely and unconditionally, to eternal life; or predestinated, absolutely and unconditionally, to eternal death:

but that believers in general are elected to enjoy the Christian privileges on earth, which, if they abuse, those very elect persons will become reprobate. St. Paul was certainly an elect person, if ever there was one: and yet he declares it was possible he himself might become a reprobate. Nay, he would actually have become such, if he had not thus kept his body under, even though he had been so long an elect person, a Christian, and an apostle.

source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_corinthians/9-26.htm



REPROBATE:

morally unprincipled; depraved
2. Christianity
destined or condemned to eternal punishment in hell
noun
3.
an unprincipled, depraved, or damned person
4.
a disreputable or roguish person
the old reprobate
verb (transitive)
5.
to disapprove of; condemn
6.
(of God) to destine, consign, or condemn to eternal punishment in hell



source: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/reprobate
Do you believe in honesty, integrity and obeying the rules???

Practice what you preach Fran......pushing obedience while being disobedient does not help your self saving working for dogma