Not By Works

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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
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Wow man, SO how did abraham get saved?

Please tell me your not one of those dual theologians who think the OT was saved by law?
Oh dear I'm not sure I fall foul of this.

I don't believe they were saved by the law.
But I believe they were saved by the animal sacrifices that God required.

Whats a dual theologian
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Sin was a gift really, I did not ask for it....did you?

“all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23) sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam.

Let me ask you something.....

Can you by your own effort "out will" Sin or Death?

I'll be waiting.....

Oh by the way I do believe we cannot out sin grace (if we have inherited eternal life) and we are saved no matter what!

God may or may not choose to intervene in a person's life but that is His arena not ours to judge.
AMEN....written unto the saved------>WHERE sin abounds, grace did much more abound.......the lost are sold under sin and dead in sin....the saved stand in the positioning of grace....Romans 5:1-2
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
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1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved,

Thats where I took my example from.
The Holy Ghost is that consuming fire, the Spirit of Truth.

I personally like Thomas Paine's quote, it is error only, not truth that shrinks from inquiry.

Note that it says if anyone's work is burned, it doesn't say the person is burned but rather their work is consumed.

The Holy Ghost is that consuming fire, a jealous God if you will (Deut 4:24) a God of truth it is written. if you build your faith upon falsehoods, you will suffer the loss of your treasures in heaven, even though you will enter heaven. Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Eccl 6:6


Thus it says "yet so as through fire" which we know turns a tree into ashes, like dust.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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The Holy Ghost is that consuming fire, the Spirit of Truth.

I personally like Thomas Paine's quote, it is error only, not truth that shrinks from inquiry.

Note that it says if anyone's work is burned, it doesn't say the person is burned but rather their work is consumed.

The Holy Ghost is that consuming fire, a jealous God if you will (Deut 4:24) a God of truth it is written. if you build your faith upon falsehoods, you will suffer the loss of your treasures in heaven, even though you will enter heaven. Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Eccl 6:6


Thus it says "yet so as through fire" which we know turns a tree into ashes, like dust.
The same Thomas Paine that wrote "The Age of Reason" and was so anti-Christian that upon his deathbed he had two witnesses to testify that he died denying Christ with his last breath........wow!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Abraham was not under the law....nor was he under the new Covenant, neither were any of the OT saints...they lived and died under the law.

Heb 11.39-40

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [SUP]40 [/SUP]because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.


What was promised Ariel?.....how can OT saints gain Jesus when they did not receive the promise of a better covenant base don better promises?

When Jesus said it was finished, Did he pay their sin debt also or did he not?

If he did, You just answered your own question of how they were saved, Just like we were saved.

Job understood about a redeemer


Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;

David understood he had a redeemer

Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.

Israel understood God was their redeemer.

Psalm 78:35
Then they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

There are many more, Redemption is not strickly a NT idea,
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Oh dear I'm not sure I fall foul of this.

I don't believe they were saved by the law.
But I believe they were saved by the animal sacrifices that God required.

Whats a dual theologian
Oh dear indeed..

Hebrews 10
4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5Consequently, when Christa came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christb had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
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Your statement contradicts the bible---->faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.......
And man doth not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

See 2 Cor 5:7

Faith is the substance of thing(s) hope for, the evidence of thing(s) not seen.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You guys use this out of context example of fruit trees all the time. Fruit is not an indication of salvation...fruit bearing glorifies the father and proves we are his disciples...John 15.8

If you are an apple tree and have no fruit you are still an apple tree, but you will be cut down and placed into the fire,if you do not respond to the care Jesus gives you[Luke 13.6-9] and not because you did not work for your salvation but that you proved not to let God be glorified by making disciples...

This hellish lie that fruit bearing is proof of salvation is true. Fruit bearing is not proof of salvation. Now people are syaing because of grace fruit bearing is not even needed. Jesus disagreed big time John 15.8...

He was not asking about fruit, He asked about the tree. An actual living things, He also was not asking about fruit bearing, He asked if the tree was still the same type of tree,
 
Apr 30, 2016
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He did answer. He just didn't fill in the bubbles in the form you wanted him to for you.

He said that "believe" means "trusting in Jesus"

Do you disagree?

...lol okay you agree it is trusting in Jesus but also that believe means obeying and doing apparently.

I have to disagree...believe is trusting in Jesus. We do add to that faith but faith is not doing but trusting.
Here's the problem, as I see it.

When I ask certain questions, I'm told that the only work we're supposed to do is to believe on Jesus whom God has sent.
I'm given this:
John 6:29

This verse is right in tune with the rest of the N.T. IF you know what the word BELIEVE means, otherwise it does sound like that's all we need to do.

But when you understand what the word BELIEVE means in the Greek, as so many here like to refer to, THEN you understand that it is not a belief system, but an ACTION that one must take.

This is why I harp on the word BELIEVE.

And, if you've noticed, Grace never gives me a simple answer, because he wants to believe that a "belief system" is all that is necessary to STAY SAVED... when the bible clearly teaches that we are to walk with God EVERY DAY and OBEY His every command.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
He believed in the promise of the Messiah.
amazingly, It was part of the covenant God made with him in Gen 15.. The new covenant is just the fulfilment of the abrahamic covenant.
 
May 12, 2017
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It would seem this debate comes down to how a person defines saving faith.

If you believe saving faith is not any form of personal faith you have been given, but rather a gift of God and therefore your saving faith is not your personal faith but Jesus /God own faith that saves you.

Given this definition I can see how so many people can make their case for OSAS and not covenant relationship.

If you believe saving faith, is your own personal faith and it came to you by hearing the word of God and the gift of God is not faith, but salvation then you may have a differing opinion.

The arguments for or against how personal saving faith is defined could triple this thread. I think if threads like this are started then a person should give their definition of saving faith.

Personally, I cannot define saving faith as God's or Jesus' own faith that saves me.

Why?

I see that as straight up universal/easy believing theology...everyone goes to heaven that "believes" because believing is then all that is needed because the personal faith that comes from hearing the word is not needed only the faith of Jesus.

I also see it as free grace theology that truly invites people to "mentally believe" and then can live like hell.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
The Holy Ghost is that consuming fire, the Spirit of Truth.

I personally like Thomas Paine's quote, it is error only, not truth that shrinks from inquiry.

Note that it says if anyone's work is burned, it doesn't say the person is burned but rather their work is consumed.

The Holy Ghost is that consuming fire, a jealous God if you will (Deut 4:24) a God of truth it is written. if you build your faith upon falsehoods, you will suffer the loss of your treasures in heaven, even though you will enter heaven. Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Eccl 6:6


Thus it says "yet so as through fire" which we know turns a tree into ashes, like dust.
Ok get it.

I was trying to say the same thing.
We as genuine believers even if we get it wrong it's our works that are burned and not us yet we still be in heaven.
Do we agree here?

Did you get from what I said that I thought the person would be burnt that led you to post about the concentration camps?

If so I never meant that
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Oh dear I'm not sure I fall foul of this.

I don't believe they were saved by the law.
But I believe they were saved by the animal sacrifices that God required.

Whats a dual theologian
dual covenant excuse me

Many believe Isreal was saved by law, and when we enter the tribulation, we will go back to law.


Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
It would seem this debate comes down to how a person defines saving faith.

If you believe saving faith is not any form of personal faith you have been given, but rather a gift of God and therefore your saving faith is not your personal faith but Jesus /God own faith that saves you.

Given this definition I can see how so many people can make their case for OSAS and not covenant relationship.

If you believe saving faith, is your own personal faith and it came to you by hearing the word of God and the gift of God is not faith, but salvation then you may have a differing opinion.

The arguments for or against how personal saving faith is defined could triple this thread. I think if threads like this are started then a person should give their definition of saving faith.

Personally, I cannot define saving faith as God's or Jesus' own faith that saves me.

Why?

I see that as straight up universal/easy believing theology...everyone goes to heaven that "believes" because believing is then all that is needed because the personal faith that comes from hearing the word is not needed only the faith of Jesus.

I also see it as free grace theology that truly invites people to "mentally believe" and then can live like hell.
You assume everyone is given a saving faith. That is the only way universalism accusation works.

Which goes into the conversation of election.

I believe saving faith causes folks to have a relationship with God through the Holy spirit.

How can you have a saving faith of its not a gift from God?

Both faith and salvation are gifts from God,

James 1:17 ►
New International Version
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
It would seem this debate comes down to how a person defines saving faith.

If you believe saving faith is not any form of personal faith you have been given, but rather a gift of God and therefore your saving faith is not your personal faith but Jesus /God own faith that saves you.

Given this definition I can see how so many people can make their case for OSAS and not covenant relationship.

If you believe saving faith, is your own personal faith and it came to you by hearing the word of God and the gift of God is not faith, but salvation then you may have a differing opinion.

The arguments for or against how personal saving faith is defined could triple this thread. I think if threads like this are started then a person should give their definition of saving faith.

Personally, I cannot define saving faith as God's or Jesus' own faith that saves me.

Why?

I see that as straight up universal/easy believing theology...everyone goes to heaven that "believes" because believing is then all that is needed because the personal faith that comes from hearing the word is not needed only the faith of Jesus.

I also see it as free grace theology that truly invites people to "mentally believe" and then can live like hell.
This is how I see sheep versus Sons Meggido.

Regeneration- Passover. Sanctifcation- Pentecost. Fullness- Tabernacles.

Its both our personal faith or believing what we have heard is true, and His faith...in His own power or His Holy Spirit to keep us to that day.

And I'm probably in trouble now with some.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Yeah stone's...still don't agree.

.I still believe sons and sheep both refer to God's born again children.