Not By Works
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The Holy Ghost is that consuming fire, the Spirit of Truth.
I personally like Thomas Paine's quote, it is error only, not truth that shrinks from inquiry.
Note that it says if anyone's work is burned, it doesn't say the person is burned but rather their work is consumed.
The Holy Ghost is that consuming fire, a jealous God if you will (Deut 4:24) a God of truth it is written. if you build your faith upon falsehoods, you will suffer the loss of your treasures in heaven, even though you will enter heaven. Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Eccl 6:6
Thus it says "yet so as through fire" which we know turns a tree into ashes, like dust.
I personally like Thomas Paine's quote, it is error only, not truth that shrinks from inquiry.
Note that it says if anyone's work is burned, it doesn't say the person is burned but rather their work is consumed.
The Holy Ghost is that consuming fire, a jealous God if you will (Deut 4:24) a God of truth it is written. if you build your faith upon falsehoods, you will suffer the loss of your treasures in heaven, even though you will enter heaven. Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Eccl 6:6
Thus it says "yet so as through fire" which we know turns a tree into ashes, like dust.
E
When Jesus said it was finished, Did he pay their sin debt also or did he not?
If he did, You just answered your own question of how they were saved, Just like we were saved.
Job understood about a redeemer
Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;
David understood he had a redeemer
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.
Israel understood God was their redeemer.
Psalm 78:35
Then they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.
There are many more, Redemption is not strickly a NT idea,
A
Oh dear indeed..
Hebrews 10
4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Consequently, when Christa came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christb had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified
Hebrews 10
4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Consequently, when Christa came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christb had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified
Here's the problem, as I see it.
When I ask certain questions, I'm told that the only work we're supposed to do is to believe on Jesus whom God has sent.
I'm given this:
John 6:29
This verse is right in tune with the rest of the N.T. IF you know what the word BELIEVE means, otherwise it does sound like that's all we need to do.
But when you understand what the word BELIEVE means in the Greek, as so many here like to refer to, THEN you understand that it is not a belief system, but an ACTION that one must take.
This is why I harp on the word BELIEVE.
And, if you've noticed, Grace never gives me a simple answer, because he wants to believe that a "belief system" is all that is necessary to STAY SAVED... when the bible clearly teaches that we are to walk with God EVERY DAY and OBEY His every command.
When I ask certain questions, I'm told that the only work we're supposed to do is to believe on Jesus whom God has sent.
I'm given this:
John 6:29
This verse is right in tune with the rest of the N.T. IF you know what the word BELIEVE means, otherwise it does sound like that's all we need to do.
But when you understand what the word BELIEVE means in the Greek, as so many here like to refer to, THEN you understand that it is not a belief system, but an ACTION that one must take.
This is why I harp on the word BELIEVE.
And, if you've noticed, Grace never gives me a simple answer, because he wants to believe that a "belief system" is all that is necessary to STAY SAVED... when the bible clearly teaches that we are to walk with God EVERY DAY and OBEY His every command.
It would seem this debate comes down to how a person defines saving faith.
If you believe saving faith is not any form of personal faith you have been given, but rather a gift of God and therefore your saving faith is not your personal faith but Jesus /God own faith that saves you.
Given this definition I can see how so many people can make their case for OSAS and not covenant relationship.
If you believe saving faith, is your own personal faith and it came to you by hearing the word of God and the gift of God is not faith, but salvation then you may have a differing opinion.
The arguments for or against how personal saving faith is defined could triple this thread. I think if threads like this are started then a person should give their definition of saving faith.
Personally, I cannot define saving faith as God's or Jesus' own faith that saves me.
Why?
I see that as straight up universal/easy believing theology...everyone goes to heaven that "believes" because believing is then all that is needed because the personal faith that comes from hearing the word is not needed only the faith of Jesus.
I also see it as free grace theology that truly invites people to "mentally believe" and then can live like hell.
If you believe saving faith is not any form of personal faith you have been given, but rather a gift of God and therefore your saving faith is not your personal faith but Jesus /God own faith that saves you.
Given this definition I can see how so many people can make their case for OSAS and not covenant relationship.
If you believe saving faith, is your own personal faith and it came to you by hearing the word of God and the gift of God is not faith, but salvation then you may have a differing opinion.
The arguments for or against how personal saving faith is defined could triple this thread. I think if threads like this are started then a person should give their definition of saving faith.
Personally, I cannot define saving faith as God's or Jesus' own faith that saves me.
Why?
I see that as straight up universal/easy believing theology...everyone goes to heaven that "believes" because believing is then all that is needed because the personal faith that comes from hearing the word is not needed only the faith of Jesus.
I also see it as free grace theology that truly invites people to "mentally believe" and then can live like hell.
Ok get it.
I was trying to say the same thing.
We as genuine believers even if we get it wrong it's our works that are burned and not us yet we still be in heaven.
Do we agree here?
Did you get from what I said that I thought the person would be burnt that led you to post about the concentration camps?
If so I never meant that
I was trying to say the same thing.
We as genuine believers even if we get it wrong it's our works that are burned and not us yet we still be in heaven.
Do we agree here?
Did you get from what I said that I thought the person would be burnt that led you to post about the concentration camps?
If so I never meant that
E
dual covenant excuse me
Many believe Isreal was saved by law, and when we enter the tribulation, we will go back to law.
Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Many believe Isreal was saved by law, and when we enter the tribulation, we will go back to law.
Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
A
You assume everyone is given a saving faith. That is the only way universalism accusation works.
Which goes into the conversation of election.
I believe saving faith causes folks to have a relationship with God through the Holy spirit.
How can you have a saving faith of its not a gift from God?
Both faith and salvation are gifts from God,
James 1:17 ►
New International Version
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Which goes into the conversation of election.
I believe saving faith causes folks to have a relationship with God through the Holy spirit.
How can you have a saving faith of its not a gift from God?
Both faith and salvation are gifts from God,
James 1:17 ►
New International Version
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
This is how I see sheep versus Sons Meggido.
Regeneration- Passover. Sanctifcation- Pentecost. Fullness- Tabernacles.
Its both our personal faith or believing what we have heard is true, and His faith...in His own power or His Holy Spirit to keep us to that day.
And I'm probably in trouble now with some.
Regeneration- Passover. Sanctifcation- Pentecost. Fullness- Tabernacles.
Its both our personal faith or believing what we have heard is true, and His faith...in His own power or His Holy Spirit to keep us to that day.
And I'm probably in trouble now with some.