People think you have to keep grace on a leash

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ember

Guest
we are ok sister, really we are.

Keep me honest here, it sounds to me like you are stating that God's love will keep a person from going to hell, even if that person never confess the Lord Jesus and Believes in their heart God raised him from the dead. Is that what you are saying? If not, then I missed it and apologize.
Hi Joshua...thanks for the question

No, I'm not saying that at all. If you reject Jesus, then you also reject the love of God

I am saying that God keeps those who are His...He knows the ones who belong to Him...we are not supposed to pull up the tares in case we also pull up the wheat, but God can tell the difference right here and right now

Hope that clears it up and sorry if I somehow muddled what I meant
 
E

ember

Guest


just..no......this is not persecution...not even close...listen, I can tell you what betrayal is, speaking personally

I can tell you how it feels to have those you thought you were one with in Christ lie about you, spread rumors about you and try to take everything you have

there is humor in this thread...but you know, you are rather stuffed with an impression of yourself that does not stand before God. There is none righteous...no not one.

There is no one righteous, not even one;11there is no one who understands;there is no one who seeks God. Romans 3

A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. Isaiah 42:3

Those who believe themselves righteous have a habit of condemning others and threatening them with verses that are meant for unbelievers....

No one here condones sin...yet we all have sinned. God's word is true and let every one else be called a liar. We lie to ourselves more then to anyone else and from there the lies spread.

There is only one starting point for salvation and if we somehow deviate from it, then we have gone wondering off and are deceived

That starting point is the Lord Jesus Christ. We believe in HIS righteousness and have faith that God's plan of salvation is all we need
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Jason,

Please explain HOW one can confess sins they are UNAWARE of doing? How are those forgiven?

We have examples given to us by the Lords prayer, and from David in Psalm 19:12-13 that show that we do not have to know and name every single sin we do. A general prayer for forgiveness will cover all sins by the Lord.
I think some are so caught up in the fact that in order for it to be a sin you have to know you are sinning, but David did not show that as he prayed for sins that he did unknowingly......




1 John 5:16-18 talks about sins that do not lead unto death. This would be hidden or secret faults or sins as talked about in the Psalms. 1 John 1:9 is obviously in reference to serious sins that lead unto death (spiritual death).

1 John 5:16-18 is not talking about hidden or secret sins that a person is doing unknowingly as the sins that do not lead to death. The context here is a person who has already petitioned for forgiveness in prayer for a sin that you still see your fellow brother or sister in Christ struggle with in turning from committing it.
Verse 15 makes this clear, and not everybody when they repent of sin stops committing it immediately. Some sins for certain people take longer to stop committing then others, and these are the ones that do not lead to death. Because they have been petitioned for forgiveness but are still struggling with it....
 

BradC

Senior Member
Jul 13, 2013
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Yes, yielding to God, fellowship, forgiveness, and salvation are linked together. This is what 1st John chapter 1 is saying. You can highlight fellowship all day long in 1 John 1 but yet you are still ignoring the words that say, "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." Again, you can't be forgiven of sins by confessing sins if your future sin is forgiven you by some kind of false OSAS belief. You either believe 1 John 1:9 or you don't believe it.

Again, if we cannot resolve this simple verse as it is written plainly, I am afraid it will do not good to argue with you on any other point in Scripture. I say this again, not to wound you but out of love for God's truth within His Word.

Forgiveness of sins is dealing with salvation and not exclusively fellowship alone. 1 John 1:9 says we are forgiven of sin. Forgiven of sin. We are forgiven of sin. IF.... we confess our sins. That is what it says in 1 John 1:9.
Jason, you are so hung up on an interpretation about having sins forgiven and cleansed by the blood after we have been saved. This has lead you to believe against OSAS and any claim that all sin has been forgiven (past, present and future) when we trust in the gospel and believe upon the Son. When we believe upon the work of the cross we have to agree with God that Christ came and was crucified to take and put away our sins and the sin of the world (John 1:29, Gal 1:4, 1 Jn 2:2, Heb 9:26). He accomplished this as a 'finished work' on the cross through the shedding of his own blood as the propitiation (or mercy seat) for our sins (Rom 3:25, 1 John 4:10). So far you agree with that, right?

According to (2 Cor 5:19-20) God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself according to (Isaiah 53:1-11), not imputing their trespasses unto them... for this reason... all trespasses and sins, which are dead works (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13, Heb 6:1, 9:14), were transferred to the Christ's body on the tree (1 Pt 2:24 - cross). His soul was made an offering for sin and He bore all our iniquities. All sin, all iniquity, all transgressions and all trespasses had to be dealt with for all men, past, present and future, in all the world. No man and no sin could be left out for all had sinned and come short (Rom 3:23, 5:12). For Christ to bear sin for all men, it also had to be for all sin. To leave out a single sin, iniquity, trespass or transgression would make his sacrifice incomplete and he would have to be crucified over and over again for those not covered by the blood of the cross.

Jason, your problem is with any future sins committed by the believer after salvation and how should the believer look at and deal with those sins. Every believer who has been saved by grace through faith must walk in the same manner (Col 2:6). If Jesus took away the sins of the world as the lamb of God, and he did, then we must agree with that work of the cross and the shed blood that goes with it, because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Heb 9:22, Acts 10:43). Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin (Heb 10:18) and we are sanctified by that offering ONCE (Heb 10:10). When this man (Jesus) had offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOREVER, he sat down at the right hand of God (Heb 10:12) and by that ONE offering perfected forever them that are sanctified (Heb 10:15) which the Holy Spirit is a witness (Heb 10:16). A done deed!

Now we can go to (1 John) and see what is being said about dealing with sin, if we sin. In (verse 4) these things are written that our joy may be full as a believer. Our fellowship with the Son and with one another is according to the light that we walk in. The light we have is the understanding that Christ bore our sins and remitted those sins through his shed blood. If we say (we may or may not) that we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not walk in the truth (1 John 1:6). This verse is troublesome because some think it refers to a saved person who has stopped walking in the light because of sin, while others think is refers to an unsaved person, who has never had the light to walk in. To get the full thought of what John is saying we have to include the remaining verses from 7-10.

John says, there are those who are saying they have fellowship but they walk in darkness, when fellowship is constituted by walking in the light. So those who are not walking in the light are not having fellowship as they assume, they lie and do not walk in the truth. These who profess to have fellowship, yet walk in darkness, how will they ever have fellowship in the light? How is that going to happen? The darkness they walk in is skotos - a darkness resulting from blindness. It could refer to those who live in unbelief and are blinded by the god of this world lest the light of the glorious gospel shine unto them (2 Cor 4:4). It could refer to those who are blind not able to see afar off (2 Peter 1:9), who lack and are unfruitful in the knowledge of God and even forget that they they WERE PURGED from their old sins.

Those who walk in the light have fellowship with God and with one another who are in Christ. The blood of Christ is active and continually cleansing that believer of sins of omission, ignorance and those things they know nothing about because they have not grown in grace and knowledge enough to have the conviction to know those things. That is nothing new (babes in Christ). This would also include sins that one has never been engaged, partaken of or given place to, that could come up later in life. Those sins that we are being cleansed of, as we walk in the light, have to do with sins that have the potential to defile us that come from out of the heart (Matt 5:18,19). So God is using the word to penetrate and divide the soul and spirit to get into the thoughts and intents of the heart (Heb 4:12,13, 1 Cor 4:5) to deal with these issues of life (Prov 4:23) utilizing the blood to cleanse us from all sin and unrighteousness, the potential for corruption (Gal 6:8, 2 Pt 1:4, 2:12).

We can't say we have not sinned, for we would decieve ourselves in that, for that is not the truth that needs to operate in us, but we acknowledge our sin, by making a confession according to the conviction of the Spirit. This is how we begin to be restored in our fellowship of walking in the light and the blood now can once again be active and cleanse us from any and all unrighteousness that we have, whether by commission or omission or in the heart. This begins and takes place immediately when we believe in our hearts unto the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ and this is what (1 John 1:7 addresses). It continues to be active in the believer's life when he walks in the light and is being continually cleansed by the application of the blood and by the word of God's promises (Eph 5:26) to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Pt 1:4).

Salvation is being worked out and is never lost during this process of growing and being converted that we might have our hearts established in grace and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience (Heb 10:22) and yes, we can be saved by the blood of Christ and have sin active in our life, but not without the conviction of the Spirit coming into play, that we might be restored in our fellowship of walking in the light.
 

sparty-g

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2015
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On the topic of OSAS, what do you all think of Charles Templeton? At one point he's leading crusades with Billy Graham and leading many people to the Messiah, he later hosted an evangelical TV show, and later became an agnostic and rejected the Christian faith. Here is a link that recounts a conversation with Billy Graham during the time when he departed from his faith, and another with Lee Strobel near the end of his life where he is very emotional about his feelings for the Messiah:

Charles Templeton: Missing Jesus | TGC
What do you all make of that?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You are basically trying to get me to believe that God would save people who are actively rebelling against Him and being evil. If that is the case, then why not just save everyone then? Do you really expect me to shut off my moral compass and buy into the idea that God's people can get away with doing evil? Not a chance. I would rather die before that happens.
You actually believe God would save someone who is still rebelling against him and being evil.

then have to yank that salvation from them, because he he was not paying attention when he saved that person. he was to busy looking at someone else. Then he looked at that person. And said, "Oh My Go... Well. Oh Me. How did that happen. That guy is still actively rebelling, I made a mistake and have to yank his salvation. How did I let that slip past me.


ps. You will die. or actually, you are still dead. Because you have refused to look at the cross. and to proud to admit it, You claim God saves people who have no faith in him. then has to yank it away, because they somehow fooled him into thinking they would live right.

You can have your God. I will take the God that David had,


Psalm 22:9
But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,843
10,195
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On the topic of OSAS, what do you all think of Charles Templeton? At one point he's leading crusades with Billy Graham and leading many people to the Messiah, he later hosted an evangelical TV show, and later became an agnostic and rejected the Christian faith. Here is a link that recounts a conversation with Billy Graham during the time when he departed from his faith, and another with Lee Strobel near the end of his life where he is very emotional about his feelings for the Messiah:

Charles Templeton: Missing Jesus | TGC
What do you all make of that?

1 John 2:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[SUP][c][/SUP] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19[/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


A person who rejects Christ is against him, He is an anti-Christ.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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just..no......this is not persecution...not even close...listen, I can tell you what betrayal is, speaking personally

I can tell you how it feels to have those you thought you were one with in Christ lie about you, spread rumors about you and try to take everything you have

there is humor in this thread...but you know, you are rather stuffed with an impression of yourself that does not stand before God. There is none righteous...no not one.

There is no one righteous, not even one;11there is no one who understands;there is no one who seeks God. Romans 3

A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. Isaiah 42:3

Those who believe themselves righteous have a habit of condemning others and threatening them with verses that are meant for unbelievers....

No one here condones sin...yet we all have sinned. God's word is true and let every one else be called a liar. We lie to ourselves more then to anyone else and from there the lies spread.

There is only one starting point for salvation and if we somehow deviate from it, then we have gone wondering off and are deceived

That starting point is the Lord Jesus Christ. We believe in HIS righteousness and have faith that God's plan of salvation is all we need
You obviously have not seen how he has treated me up until that point. Also, he has no authority over me like Paul had in various churches that were under his care. He is not offering helpful advice but only slander at this point. Therein lies the difference.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You obviously have not seen how he has treated me up until that point. Also, he has no authority over me like Paul had in various churches that were under his care. He is not offering helpful advice but only slander at this point. Therein lies the difference.

The truth hurts.

You rejecting it, does not mean Gods word has authority over you.

You slander everyone by saying OSAS is from the devil.

If you can not handle being confronted by what you say, Then stop slandering everyone you disagree with. Otherwise your a hypocrite!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
41,591
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The truth hurts.

You rejecting it, does not mean Gods word has authority over you.

You slander everyone by saying OSAS is from the devil.

If you can not handle being confronted by what you say, Then stop slandering everyone you disagree with. Otherwise your a hypocrite!
I agree and he is doing the very thing he complains about in that post while using the word slander........really nothing more than a sad joke propagating his own coined false doctrine......!
 
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Mar 14, 2011
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I agree and he is doing the very thing he complains about in that post while using the word slander........really nothing more than a sad joke propagating his own coined false doctrine......!
you can tell them by their fruits.

he hates being called out. yet he has no problem calling anyone else.

the fruit of hypocracy
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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you can tell them by their fruits.

he hates being called out. yet he has no problem calling anyone else.

the fruit of hypocracy
No doubt and being easily offended is a sign of spiritual immaturity or even a lack of spirituality.....!
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
175
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On the topic of OSAS, what do you all think of Charles Templeton? At one point he's leading crusades with Billy Graham and leading many people to the Messiah, he later hosted an evangelical TV show, and later became an agnostic and rejected the Christian faith. Here is a link that recounts a conversation with Billy Graham during the time when he departed from his faith, and another with Lee Strobel near the end of his life where he is very emotional about his feelings for the Messiah:

Charles Templeton: Missing Jesus | TGC
What do you all make of that?

Mt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV




I never knew you is quite different from I have forgotten you. This passage indicates that there will be some in the Church, who look saved, sound saved, act saved; and are not saved. It is not our role to judge the genuineness of anyone's faith; but if the fruit of the Spirit is not discernibly developing in a person's life we should be trying to lead them to faith regardless of their profession.
 
Apr 9, 2015
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God Knows His Own. those He purchased at the Tree.. those He knew before He created Time and Dirt... He has the Power to 'Keep His Own'.. and this from going astray. He will guide them back thru the Power of the Spirit.. that indwells them.. to say they will never 'sin' again. is wrong. if they continue in Error. He will guide them back thru TRUTH and Mercy.. Bymercyandtruth iniquity is purged: andby the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.----- a man centered Gospel puts all the emphasis on man.. from salvation to 'keeping oneself spotted from the World'.. cycles and continually lives in condemnation and error.... NEVER Growing in the True Grace that God Grants to His Own. His Elect... you see so much of that today.. 'tares-weeds' I call them.. persecuting and harassing the Children Born of the Spirit .. Genuinely.. not suprised... Peter told the ELECT of God in His Writing to arm yourself As Christ Armed Himself..----- Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us intheflesh, arm yourselves likewise with the Same mind: for he/she that hath sufferedintheflesh hath ceased from sin;------ this not to say they will never sin. but Walk in the Spirit and ye will not Fulfill the desires of the flesh.. God's Desire for you and His Identity for you is Hidden in His Word.. Your Identity in Him is not according to those in man made christianity who feel it is their duty to 'mold and conform'' you to a man made image of Christ. built up and produced by those who operate in the Flesh.. holding out the Truth in un righteousness.. wow. there is so much of that today... Your Identity in Christ.. is Found in the One who Gave Himself for you at the bloody tRee.. Jesus the Christ God manifest in the flesh... thats where your life is hidden and your Identity is 'KNOWN'. in Heaven.. not mans theology.. do you Truly Know the One who gave Himself on that Tree for you? do you know His Sufferings? the Power of His Resurrection? stand at the Bloody tree and look at the Great Thing God has done for you.. not you 'for God'.. Understand that and then you will understand Who Truly Gave Himself for you there!
 
3

3Scoreand10

Guest
peaceful,

It is close to impossible to persuade Jason of anything. The best you can hope for is to point out his errors so that undiscipled believers won't stumble over them.
Jason only believes Jason.
There are many millions who believe OSAS, yet he wants to base his judgment on those undefinded many he has met.
He says he does not believe in works for salvation, but teaches that God will not honor nor is HE strong enough to keep His promise of ETERNAL salvation unless Jason helps him out by his keeping( WORKS) God's commandments and not sinning.

You are wasting your time on Jason. Only God can open his eye, and I pray He will before it is eternally to late for him.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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We have examples given to us by the Lords prayer, and from David in Psalm 19:12-13 that show that we do not have to know and name every single sin we do. A general prayer for forgiveness will cover all sins by the Lord.
I think some are so caught up in the fact that in order for it to be a sin you have to know you are sinning, but David did not show that as he prayed for sins that he did unknowingly......
I would agree with this (Such as the example with the Lord's prayer as we talked about before). However, I also believe some type of sorrow has to be expressed to God before one dies if they sin shortly before they die in order to be right with Him, though.

1 John 5:16-18 is not talking about hidden or secret sins that a person is doing unknowingly as the sins that do not lead to death. The context here is a person who has already petitioned for forgiveness in prayer for a sin that you still see your fellow brother or sister in Christ struggle with in turning from committing it. Verse 15 makes this clear, and not everybody when they repent of sin stops committing it immediately. Some sins for certain people take longer to stop committing then others, and these are the ones that do not lead to death. Because they have been petitioned for forgiveness but are still struggling with it....
Thank you for clarifying that. Yes, I have taught this same thing on this passage before. I merely forgot to mention it. So I appreciate you bringing it up. For I agree that in context of the sin that does NOT lead unto death is confessed sin that a believer is struggling to overcome. However, I also believe Psalm 19:12 that talks about hidden or secret faults fall under the umbrella of sins that do not lead unto death (Even though they are not in view or context to 1 John 5:16-18). For obviously if a brother drinks soberly in public and makes another brother to stumble without them realizing it, then how can they be at fault? So such a thing is also a sin that does NOT lead unto death.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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The truth hurts.

You rejecting it, does not mean Gods word has authority over you.

You slander everyone by saying OSAS is from the devil.

If you can not handle being confronted by what you say, Then stop slandering everyone you disagree with. Otherwise your a hypocrite!
No. You have things backwards. Most (Not all) OSAS proponents tell folks that they believe in the teachings of Jesus; However, they act like one does not need to do anything for Jesus the rest of their life (Whereby one can still gain entrance into Heaven). Now, whoever is reading this sentence now, if what I say feels like this applies to you, then you have to know that you are being hypocritcal. For Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say?

Also, DC is slandering me. It's not the other way around. I have only judged because he judged me. I do not set out to slander or judge people. My goal it preach God's Word and to help others to understand it.
 
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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
41,591
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No. You have things backwards. Most (Not all) OSAS proponents tell folks that they believe in the teachings of Jesus; However, they act like one does not need to do anything for Jesus the rest of their life (Whereby one can still gain entrance into Heaven). Now, if what I say feels like it applies to whomever is listening, then they are being hypocritcal. For Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say?

Also, DC is slandering me. It's not the other way around. I have only judged because he judged me. I do not set out to slander or judge people. My goal it preach God's Word and to help others to understand it.
Now your just full of it.....calling you on the carpet for your heretical doctrine is not slander, telling you it is not offensive to call someone dude or bro is not slander so......I suggest you start following the God of heaven, trust Jesus as your savior and acknowledge the truth instead of your coined, false salvation lite doctrine which is not from God.........


You mean actually--->My goal it preach Jason's Word and to help others to understand my salvation lite doctrine which contradicts the word of God.
 
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