(poll) Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?

[Endoscopy]

Same to you, go on thinking your special and God has predestined people to hell apart from giving them any opportunity or chance to be saved. If that makes you feel better, so be it..

And thanks for again being like many of your brothers.. It is sad ow most of you peopple act. If you only knew how this makes you and your position look.

It is obvious that most people don't understand the origin of the issue. Some facts to set the stage.

1. In the begining God created the heavens and earth.
2. God knew the end from the beginning.

This means he saw who would follow him. Calvinists say he touches them to believe. Arminianists say they decide by themselves to believe.

The issue revolves around a verse in KJV that states "the carnal mind is enmity against God". Calvinists state that only God can overcome it while Arminianists say the person is able to overcome it with hearing the gospel along with the aid of people leading them to Jesus.

 

[Lighthearted]

#1 I believe He loves us all.
#2 I believe He knows everything about us from His very thought of you and I until our very last breath.
#3 I believe He has a purpose should we make the decision to walk in His will by our own free will.
#4 He knows who will make that choice and who won't...because of #2
#5 Does He use the consequences of our mistakes along the way for His glory to draw us nearer? Absolutely! See #1

 

[Endoscopy]

#1 I believe He loves us all.
#2 I believe He knows everything about us from His very thought of you and I until our very last breath.
#3 I believe He has a purpose should we make the decision to walk in His will by our own free will.
#4 He knows who will make that choice and who won't...because of #2
#5 Does He use the consequences of our mistakes along the way for His glory to draw us nearer? Absolutely! See #1

His knowledge of us from the begining comes through loud and clear with the codes in the Bible. In the Torah codes exists in Hebrew and its cousin Aramaic. Starting with a letter and going forwards or backwards at an interval messages are seen. Names with birth and death dates of 20th century men are listed. Also in 2 messianic prophecy sections about the Messiah the codes state the name of Jesus with the note "it is he". Also listed are the names of the disciples without Judas and adding the name of the one replacing him. Only God could have accomplished this with his foreknowledge and caused the authors of those sections to word them in such a way. Obviously this was centuries prion to these events and thousands of years before the 20th century men lived.

Proof positive of the scripture being of devine origin.

 

[tuliponmymind]

First of all I was taught in a very thoroughly taught Reformed Church in the early 80's. Since then I have had to do my own studies since alot of the leaders and teacher have since passed. Of course John MacArthur is still alive and he does teach a line by line expository preaching and is almost all the way reformed in his teaching minus Limited Atonement. The Gospel of John is pretty much the book that will show any Christian that God choose US,not we choose God. I have always used the Gospel of John to show Christians that God does the choosing. Of course the whole Bible has passages supporting God is the Author of our salvation,but John has the easiest to access passages and they all are in sync with one another as is the whole Bible.
Okay start with John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me,and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. Then go to verse 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day." So there you see it say in plain black and white that NO ONE CAN COME TO JESUS UNLESS GOD DRAWS HIM FIRST. DRAWS HERE MEANS PULL AGAINST YOUR WILL. WE CANNOT RESIST THE DRAWING. NO ONE CAN RESIST GOD. KEEP READING. vs.65 " For this reason I have said to you,that no one can come to me,unless it has been granted him from the Father." So what this scripture is saying that God is in control. He draws us. He draws whom he wants to draw and we don't have a choice. Like it or not. We are like Romans say,clay that is in a Potter's hands. We are the clay and God is the Potter. He chooses us and he draws us when he wants to save us. Praise the Lord for that day! It is a humbling thought. Also read John 10. It talks about the sheep and the goats. Only the sheep hear his voice. vs.10:11 He is the Good Shepherd. He lays His life for the sheep. Does it say he dies for the goats? No. The goats don't hear his voice because they aren't his. it is so simple to believe in what the Word is saying. Please don't add to it or take away from it.

 

[Lighthearted]

I certainly believe in predestination...but I also believe we often stray from the path set before us. It has happened to me in my walk. That's why I also believe that once He starts to work on the clay...He will see His work finished. He knows our hearts and He knows how stubborn we can be. We still have to wise up and learn to listen...I know because He brought me to my knees before I got the message. Sometimes I still find myself trying to do things my way and ahead of Him, but the Holy Spirit corrects me and I am reminded to wait upon the Lord.

 

[Endoscopy]

First of all I was taught in a very thoroughly taught Reformed Church in the early 80's. Since then I have had to do my own studies since alot of the leaders and teacher have since passed. Of course John MacArthur is still alive and he does teach a line by line expository preaching and is almost all the way reformed in his teaching minus Limited Atonement. The Gospel of John is pretty much the book that will show any Christian that God choose US,not we choose God. I have always used the Gospel of John to show Christians that God does the choosing. Of course the whole Bible has passages supporting God is the Author of our salvation,but John has the easiest to access passages and they all are in sync with one another as is the whole Bible.
Okay start with John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me,and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. Then go to verse 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day." So there you see it say in plain black and white that NO ONE CAN COME TO JESUS UNLESS GOD DRAWS HIM FIRST. DRAWS HERE MEANS PULL AGAINST YOUR WILL. WE CANNOT RESIST THE DRAWING. NO ONE CAN RESIST GOD. KEEP READING. vs.65 " For this reason I have said to you,that no one can come to me,unless it has been granted him from the Father." So what this scripture is saying that God is in control. He draws us. He draws whom he wants to draw and we don't have a choice. Like it or not. We are like Romans say,clay that is in a Potter's hands. We are the clay and God is the Potter. He chooses us and he draws us when he wants to save us. Praise the Lord for that day! It is a humbling thought. Also read John 10. It talks about the sheep and the goats. Only the sheep hear his voice. vs.10:11 He is the Good Shepherd. He lays His life for the sheep. Does it say he dies for the goats? No. The goats don't hear his voice because they aren't his. it is so simple to believe in what the Word is saying. Please don't add to it or take away from it.

While I am Reformed/Calvinist in my beliefs I also understand that the Arminian views are Biblical. Thus the Quinquarticular Controversy. Notice at the bottom is the Biblical defense of both. Refute the Arminian view if you are able. This is probably an agree to disagree issue. This is a file I keep to post about this issue.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Arminian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Arminianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Arminianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

 

[tuliponmymind]

While I am Reformed/Calvinist in my beliefs I also understand that the Arminian views are Biblical. Thus the Quinquarticular Controversy. Notice at the bottom is the Biblical defense of both. Refute the Arminian view if you are able. This is probably an agree to disagree issue. This is a file I keep to post about this issue.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Arminian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Arminianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Arminianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

I used to argue until my head fell off a long time ago. Now I just stick to the Word. If the Bible doesn't say it then I don't believe it. I have put the Word out. I will let those who read it pray about it and apply it to their lives or reject the Word as Hebrews talks about. You see a Christian DOES have the ability to accept to reject the Word of God,but not an Unbeliever. The Unbeliever has no power. They are fallen as we know from the Fall. I just refuse to argue anymore about Doctrine. It doesn't produce the fruit of Love,only bitterness and separation between two Believers. I have a Pentecostal friend. We just don't discuss Doctrine. We are two completely opposite ends of the earth in our beliefs,but we have remained friends. Sometimes you just can't discuss Doctrine with certain people who aren't open to discussing it.

 

[tuliponmymind]

#1 I believe He loves us all.
#2 I believe He knows everything about us from His very thought of you and I until our very last breath.
#3 I believe He has a purpose should we make the decision to walk in His will by our own free will.
#4 He knows who will make that choice and who won't...because of #2
#5 Does He use the consequences of our mistakes along the way for His glory to draw us nearer? Absolutely! See #1

It would be great if your beliefs were true. Unfortunately there is a Heaven and there is a Hell. You have to try and understand if there is a Hell then who is God sending to Hell?? If He loves everyone then who is He sending to Hell. You will be running into contradictions with that belief. It is a great one if it was true,but unfortunately it isn't supported from scripture,especially the book or Romans. If you read Romans you could never come out of it saying God loves everyone. God loved Jacob,but hated Esau just to name one single scripture. You see God doesn't contradict Himself. He is perfect. He has had a plan way before you and I were born. Ephesians talks all about the plan he made for you and I. Just read the New Testament from Mathew to Revelations ONE more time with maybe a commentary like John MacArthur who has been teaching the Word for over 45 years and has a very nice Bible College called Grace Community College and runs the Grace To You on the radio. You will be blessed and I promise you will see miracles appear in your readings you never saw before.

 

[tuliponmymind]

It is obvious that most people don't understand the origin of the issue. Some facts to set the stage.

1. In the begining God created the heavens and earth.
2. God knew the end from the beginning.

This means he saw who would follow him. Calvinists say he touches them to believe. Arminianists say they decide by themselves to believe.

The issue revolves around a verse in KJV that states "the carnal mind is enmity against God". Calvinists state that only God can overcome it while Arminianists say the person is able to overcome it with hearing the gospel along with the aid of people leading them to Jesus.

I really don't think God has to "predestine anyone to go to Hell" We are all going to Hell because of the Fall already. The only way we are going to Heaven is because of the blood of Jesus. "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" Hebrews. So I don't think we have to make God sound like an evil God by saying he is sending people to Hell when all we have to say is he is saving people FROM Hell. Thank You Jesus.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I certainly believe in predestination...but I also believe we often stray from the path set before us. It has happened to me in my walk. That's why I also believe that once He starts to work on the clay...He will see His work finished. He knows our hearts and He knows how stubborn we can be. We still have to wise up and learn to listen...I know because He brought me to my knees before I got the message. Sometimes I still find myself trying to do things my way and ahead of Him, but the Holy Spirit corrects me and I am reminded to wait upon the Lord.

Glad to hear you say that part about waiting on the LORD.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I really don't think God has to "predestine anyone to go to Hell" We are all going to Hell because of the Fall already. The only way we are going to Heaven is because of the blood of Jesus. "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" Hebrews. So I don't think we have to make God sound like an evil God by saying he is sending people to Hell when all we have to say is he is saving people FROM Hell. Thank You Jesus.

The way some members describe predestination makes GOD look bad.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The only way we are going to Heaven is because of the blood of Jesus. "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins"

Yes,ALL the law and the prophets are summed up In one word,love.

 

[preacher4truth]

God chose whom he willed to save, predestining them for this very thing; Ephesians 1:4ff; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:3; James 1:18; Romans 9:11ff.

If God did not elect to save based on nothing good or bad in those he has chosen, no one would be saved as none would choose God in their fallen state; John 6:36ff. Our choosing has nothing to do with clinching eternal salvation; John 1:13, Romans 9:6-21. We are in Him because of Him, not because of us, so it is not due to any person "choosing"; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

"Free will" has nothing to do with our eternal salvation, for we were not free in any fashion, until Christ; John 8:36. He gets the glory, not us.

Romans 9:11ff is quite clear it (salvation) is not according to him that runs, or him that wills. Some still preach their error that we are saved by our "free will choosing" while Scripture declares"It depends not on human will..." which is crystal clear, denying the former error. Read it, believe it, or it can be rejected in favor of what you did. Salvation is not dependent on human will, it has not one thing to do with a persons eternal salvation.

It's still all to God's glory even if it is rejected among those still incessantly fighting for man's glory and what they did in choosing God by their will, and refusing to give all the Glory unto God.

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[louis]

Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?

I have gotten a debate in person and online recently about this.
Do you believe we are predestined to be saved, as if God chose us before our existence and planned to save us or do you believe it's up to us alone to choose him or do you believe he tries to choose us but leaves the final answer up to us?

With whatever you believe, there are these common sayings I get in response when they debate.

if you believe he chooses in us and we can't avoid him and being saved because we are predestined, then isn't us choosing him forced on us and not wanting him by free will and doesn't that seem like he didn't really die for everyone because he isn't choosing the rest of the world to save them?

if you believe it is entirely up to us, then does that mean in our sinful nature we have good desires to do what is right without God in us to give us those desires before salvation?

Or if you believe he makes us want to as if he gives us the strength and desires to want to be saved, but we can still choose to live in sin and not be saved? That it is up to us in the end?

I have not given my answer here on this poll, but I'd like to hear yours and I may share mine.

According to the context of Romans 8:13-14, they who in their lifetimes choose to live for their spirit, and not to live for their flesh, are they whom the Lord foreknew before the world was, and whom He did predestine to become like Christ.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Hevosmies]

I think its plain that God chooses people in the bible.

Anyone who disagrees with that is disqualified as a Christian in my books.

God chose Abraham.
God chose the entire nation of Israel as a special people, and it even says "ABOVE" all other nations. Bu-bu-but fair and equal.
Yeah no.

God chose Israel for reasons we dont know. It just says God loved Israel. He chose to show grace to them, even though they were not in our eyes anything special compared to the edomites or amalakites or any other nations around.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

GOD decided that those who would be saved would be those who would choose to call on HIM.choice,because man could try to keep GODs PERFECT standard of righteousness with his own strength or realize that he was not strong enough to do this and call for GOD and GOD made It possible for man to receive salvation by faith In HIS SON JESUS.

 

[tuliponmymind]

God chose whom he willed to save, predestining them for this very thing; Ephesians 1:4ff; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:3; James 1:18; Romans 9:11ff.

If God did not elect to save based on nothing good or bad in those he has chosen, no one would be saved as none would choose God in their fallen state; John 6:36ff. Our choosing has nothing to do with clinching eternal salvation; John 1:13, Romans 9:6-21. We are in Him because of Him, not because of us, so it is not due to any person "choosing"; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

"Free will" has nothing to do with our eternal salvation, for we were not free in any fashion, until Christ; John 8:36. He gets the glory, not us.

Romans 9:11ff is quite clear it (salvation) is not according to him that runs, or him that wills. Some still preach their error that we are saved by our "free will choosing" while Scripture declares"It depends not on human will..." which is crystal clear, denying the former error. Read it, believe it, or it can be rejected in favor of what you did. Salvation is not dependent on human will, it has not one thing to do with a persons eternal salvation.

It's still all to God's glory even if it is rejected among those still incessantly fighting for man's glory and what they did in choosing God by their will, and refusing to give all the Glory unto God.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Yes,the only people who have FREE WILL are Christians. The only free will non-believers have is the free will to sin. They cannot please God as the Bible proclaims. I have heard it as compared to a Lion in a supermarket. He has the free will to go to any food he likes,but where will he go? Always to the meat. It is because his nature desires the meat. The sinful nature of man is always to sin,not to do good.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yes,the only people who have FREE WILL are Christians. The only free will non-believers have is the free will to sin. They cannot please God as the Bible proclaims. I have heard it as compared to a Lion in a supermarket. He has the free will to go to any food he likes,but where will he go? Always to the meat. It is because his nature desires the meat. The sinful nature of man is always to sin,not to do good.

I am a lion then, as I LOVE meat. Roar!

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes,the only people who have FREE WILL are Christians. The only free will non-believers have is the free will to sin. They cannot please God as the Bible proclaims. I have heard it as compared to a Lion in a supermarket. He has the free will to go to any food he likes,but where will he go? Always to the meat. It is because his nature desires the meat. The sinful nature of man is always to sin,not to do good.

This is why I combat the "choose yourself into heaven via free will gospel" brother. Many are deceived they are on their way to heaven by it, and are as lost as the proverbial goose. Yet preachers guarantee them they're going to heaven, "Just turn to 1 John 5:13 with me, and let me take it out of context, and assure you anyhow!"

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[preacher4truth]

I am a lion then, as I LOVE meat. Roar!

toe-foo ain't meat.