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Watchmen, I don't see the point of gathering anyone from Heaven if they are already in Heaven - they're already home. Why would they need to be gathered?
Also, if we look to the MKJV , Heaven is normally capitalised to mean God's heaven, such as :
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father.
and in this case it isn't:
Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Also, as far as I understand, the Heaven of God, doesn't have limits or ends.
Also, if we look to the MKJV , Heaven is normally capitalised to mean God's heaven, such as :
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father.
and in this case it isn't:
Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Also, as far as I understand, the Heaven of God, doesn't have limits or ends.
D
Matthew 24:31
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*Note His ANGELS are gather the Elect..*
Mark 13:27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
HIS ANGELS.... Not Him...
1 Thes 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
NOT His angels... These two events are not the SAME.. One is talking about Yeshua coming HIMSELF the other is talking about Him sending His angels.
John 14:6
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Those are two separate EVENTS. (HENCE two different TRUMPETS)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*Note His ANGELS are gather the Elect..*
Mark 13:27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
HIS ANGELS.... Not Him...
1 Thes 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
NOT His angels... These two events are not the SAME.. One is talking about Yeshua coming HIMSELF the other is talking about Him sending His angels.
John 14:6
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Those are two separate EVENTS. (HENCE two different TRUMPETS)
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B
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 totally agrees with the other passages to prove a Postrib rapture, saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”
This is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. You have not addressed watchman's point showing that this reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end.
The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.
This Coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations.
I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse.
This is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. You have not addressed watchman's point showing that this reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end.
The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.
This Coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations.
I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse.
D
You are still completely avoiding the point they are two absolute separate events. 1 Thes 4:15-18 and Mat 24:31 are different events. One is His angels one is Yeshua Himself.
So just because it *looks* like the same event doesn't mean it is. It is clearly not as the Bible has just proven to you. These are two different events talking about the Elect being gathered.
So just because it *looks* like the same event doesn't mean it is. It is clearly not as the Bible has just proven to you. These are two different events talking about the Elect being gathered.
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B
But you are not addressing the weakness in your argument that what you spread over 2 Comings is actually shown in 1 Thess 4 to occur at the one rapture event. Christ brings the elect from heaven and He rescues the sainst on earth. They all unite in the sky to return to a regenerated earth. Whilst these readings add different detail to the canvass they all seem to refer to the one climactic event.
D
No you are twisting Scripture. Me admitting I was wrong was me saying Matthew 24:31 was the rapture.. I just showed you Matthew 24:31 is NOT the rapture but the Second Coming.. And HIS ANGELS will gather the Elect. 1 Thes 4 talks about how YESHUA WILL GATHER THE CHURCH.. Those are TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS.
It doesn't say the Lord gathers us it says He descends from Heaven just as it also says in the Matthew and Mark. In 1st Thess 4 it doesn;t how we are gathered togwethed, but we know by the references in Matthew and Mark that we are gathered by angels. Just like in 1st Thess 4 it doesn't say we are changed into immortal Heavenly bodies, but we know through 1st Cor 15:51-53 that we are, just like it doesn't say in 1st Thess 4 that we reign with Christ for 1,000 years after the resurrection/ rapture, but we know through Revelation 20:4-6 that we will. No passage can be isolated as an island unto itself but the bible must be in interpreted as whole.
By the way none of those verses I referenced say we will be received into Christ, but we know through the reference you posted in John 14 that we will.
When it is all added together the Bible teaches us we are gathered to Christ by the angels at the post trib 2nd coming. As He is descend we are received into Christ, and continue our descent to Earth to reign and rule with Him for the Millennial reign. This cannot be proven by any single passage, but as a whole it cannot be denied.
By the way none of those verses I referenced say we will be received into Christ, but we know through the reference you posted in John 14 that we will.
When it is all added together the Bible teaches us we are gathered to Christ by the angels at the post trib 2nd coming. As He is descend we are received into Christ, and continue our descent to Earth to reign and rule with Him for the Millennial reign. This cannot be proven by any single passage, but as a whole it cannot be denied.
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D
Let me post this again. I thought making it bold and really big letters would help but I guess not.
Matthew 24:31
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*Note His ANGELS are gather the Elect..*
Mark 13:27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
HIS ANGELS.... Not Him...
1 Thes 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
NOT His angels... These two events are not the SAME.. One is talking about Yeshua coming HIMSELF the other is talking about Him sending His angels.
John 14:6
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
(I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU TO MYSELF) *NOT SEND MY ANGELS* 1 Thes 4 has NO MENTION OF ANGELS.. Matthew 24 says THE ANGELS will gather the Elect.. 1 Thes 4 says YESHUA WILL GATHER THEM.*
They are TWO separate EVENTS.
Matthew 24:31
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*Note His ANGELS are gather the Elect..*
Mark 13:27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
HIS ANGELS.... Not Him...
1 Thes 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
NOT His angels... These two events are not the SAME.. One is talking about Yeshua coming HIMSELF the other is talking about Him sending His angels.
John 14:6
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
(I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU TO MYSELF) *NOT SEND MY ANGELS* 1 Thes 4 has NO MENTION OF ANGELS.. Matthew 24 says THE ANGELS will gather the Elect.. 1 Thes 4 says YESHUA WILL GATHER THEM.*
They are TWO separate EVENTS.
Let me post this again because you obviously didn't read it....
It doesn't say the Lord gathers us it says He descends from Heaven just as it also says in the Matthew and Mark. In 1st Thess 4 it doesn;t how we are gathered togwethed, but we know by the references in Matthew and Mark that we are gathered by angels. Just like in 1st Thess 4 it doesn't say we are changed into immortal Heavenly bodies, but we know through 1st Cor 15:51-53 that we are, just like it doesn't say in 1st Thess 4 that we reign with Christ for 1,000 years after the resurrection/ rapture, but we know through Revelation 20:4-6 that we will. No passage can be isolated as an island unto itself but the bible must be in interpreted as whole.
By the way none of those verses I referenced say we will be received into Christ, but we know through the reference you posted in John 14 that we will.
When it is all added together the Bible teaches us we are gathered to Christ by the angels at the post trib 2nd coming. As He is descend we are received into Christ, and continue our descent to Earth to reign and rule with Him for the Millennial reign. This cannot be proven by any single passage, but as a whole it cannot be denied.
There is absolutely no reason except for the fact that one refuses to believe the truth for anyone to think that the 2nd coming mentioned in Matthew and Mark is a different event that the 2nd coming mentioned anywhere else in scripture including 1st Thess 4.
It doesn't say the Lord gathers us it says He descends from Heaven just as it also says in the Matthew and Mark. In 1st Thess 4 it doesn;t how we are gathered togwethed, but we know by the references in Matthew and Mark that we are gathered by angels. Just like in 1st Thess 4 it doesn't say we are changed into immortal Heavenly bodies, but we know through 1st Cor 15:51-53 that we are, just like it doesn't say in 1st Thess 4 that we reign with Christ for 1,000 years after the resurrection/ rapture, but we know through Revelation 20:4-6 that we will. No passage can be isolated as an island unto itself but the bible must be in interpreted as whole.
By the way none of those verses I referenced say we will be received into Christ, but we know through the reference you posted in John 14 that we will.
When it is all added together the Bible teaches us we are gathered to Christ by the angels at the post trib 2nd coming. As He is descend we are received into Christ, and continue our descent to Earth to reign and rule with Him for the Millennial reign. This cannot be proven by any single passage, but as a whole it cannot be denied.
There is absolutely no reason except for the fact that one refuses to believe the truth for anyone to think that the 2nd coming mentioned in Matthew and Mark is a different event that the 2nd coming mentioned anywhere else in scripture including 1st Thess 4.