RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

Zilla64007 · Feb 21, 2012

"the" tribulation has not started yet? really?...
tell that to the Christians today who are living in Communist China who are both tortured and KILLED for having a Bible in their possession
tell that to the Christians living in North Korea who are living under the rule of an antichrist and are persecuted and killed for the name of Jesus,
tell that to the Christians living in Israel, or the Palestinian Christians living in Israel who are persecuted, tortured and beaten by Jews who YOU claim to still be the Chosen people of God, even though they constantly reject Jesus Christ...
Tell THAT to the 1st - 3rd Century Christians who were constantly tortured for their faith by the caesars, the same Christians who didn't believe in a pre-trib rapture.
tell THAT to Polycarp, the Disciple of the Apostle John, who was burned alive and speared in the ribs for his faith in Jesus, a disciple who ALSO did not teach a pre-tribulation rapture.
telll THAT to Justin Martyr, a Christian apologist of the 1st Century who was beheaded by Junius Rusticus, ANOTHER Christian teacher who never taught a pre-trib rapture.

tell THAT to every single person who has given their life for Jesus Christ.

this sick and disgusting doctrine will be the downfall of westernized Christianity.

you WILL be here.
mark my words... and mark the words of Jesus Christ and Paul.
Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

shroom2 · Feb 21, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

I did not mean to upset you. Yes, many Christians the world over suffer for their faith. I disagree with your opinion that the early church did not believe in a pretrib rapture.

But THE tribulation, when over 1/2 of the earths population will be killed, worldwide famine, earthquakes destroying major cities the world over, men wishing to die, but not able to, etc, in other words the events spoken of in Revelation. The seals, trumpets, and bowl judgements. None of that has happened yet.

It will be the salvation of Christians. It's when dead Christians will be raised, and living Christians changed.

Paul wrote of the pretrib rapture in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4. I believe him.

But if I pick up the paper some morning, or read on the web that 50% of the earths population has been wiped out, or the oceans have turned to blood, or every living thing in the sea has died, then I'll fully admit that I was wrong, and will be going through the trib.

Zilla64007 · Feb 21, 2012

yes we will see, won't we?

we will see that if this doctrine is indeed Biblical or not... and i pray you dont fall away.

peterT · Feb 21, 2012

shroom2 said:

There’s nothing about a pretrib rapture in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4. Your just making it up

2knowhim · Feb 21, 2012

Zilla64007 said:

"the" tribulation has not started yet? really?...
tell that to the Christians today who are living in Communist China who are both tortured and KILLED for having a Bible in their possession
tell that to the Christians living in North Korea who are living under the rule of an antichrist and are persecuted and killed for the name of Jesus,
tell that to the Christians living in Israel, or the Palestinian Christians living in Israel who are persecuted, tortured and beaten by Jews who YOU claim to still be the Chosen people of God, even though they constantly reject Jesus Christ...
Tell THAT to the 1st - 3rd Century Christians who were constantly tortured for their faith by the caesars, the same Christians who didn't believe in a pre-trib rapture.
tell THAT to Polycarp, the Disciple of the Apostle John, who was burned alive and speared in the ribs for his faith in Jesus, a disciple who ALSO did not teach a pre-tribulation rapture.
telll THAT to Justin Martyr, a Christian apologist of the 1st Century who was beheaded by Junius Rusticus, ANOTHER Christian teacher who never taught a pre-trib rapture.

tell THAT to every single person who has given their life for Jesus Christ.

this sick and disgusting doctrine will be the downfall of westernized Christianity.

you WILL be here.
mark my words... and mark the words of Jesus Christ and Paul.
Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Amen Zilla,

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

shroom2 · Feb 21, 2012

peterT said:

I am not "making it up". But you're free to believe as you wish.

2knowhim · Feb 21, 2012

peterT said:

This gave me a chuckle, thanks.

Avinu · Feb 21, 2012

AS MOST OF US KNOW, 1 COR. 15:52 IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET.
FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

AND 1 THESS. 4:16-17 16) FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF AN ARCH ANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD.
AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17) THEN WE WHO ARE... ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. AND THUS WE SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD.

AS MOST OF US KNOW THAT THESE ARE 2 OF MOST USED AND FAVORITE PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE FOR PRE-TRIB EVIDENCE.

SO LETS LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS FIRST, IN IT, IT SAYS AT THE 'LAST' TRUMP. THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST. SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. HMMMM.

NOW LETS LOOK AT 1 THESS. IN VERSE 16, THE WORD DESCEND IN THE GREEK IS 'KATABAINO' MEANING TO COME DOWN FROM, SO THIS MEANS YESHUA IS COMING DOWN FROM. ALSO IN VERSE 16, "WITH A SHOUT" THE GREEK WORD 'KELEUMA' WHICH MEANS A CRY OF INCITEMENT' SO NOT A SILENT EVENT. V.17 "WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN" THE WORD REMAIN IN THE GREEK IS 'PERILEIPO' WHICH MEANS TO LEAVE ALL AROUND, SURVIVE' HMMM, WHO HAVE SURVIVED.

NOW LETS LOOK AT REV. 20:4-5 4)AND I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT ON THEM, AND JUDGEMENT WAS COMMITTED TO THEM. THEN I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THEIR WITNESS TO YESHUA AND FOR THE WORD OF YHVH, WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE, AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FORHEADS OR ON THEIR HANDS. AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YRS. 5) BUT THE REST OF THE DEADDID NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

SO HERE IN REVELATION 20 IT IS TELLING US THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED IN THE TRIBULATION AND DIDN'T TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WERE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 THESS. 4 ABOUT THE DEAD WILL RISE FIRST, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 COR. 15 AT THE LAST TRUMP AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORUPTIBLE.
THE KEY HERE IS THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
THEN THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE TRIB. IF THEY ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

WHICH WOULD THEN FOLLOW WITH HEBREWS 9:28 SO MESSIAH WAS OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY. TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY WAIT FOR HIM HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION.

SO ALL THIS TELLS US THAT YESHUA WILL COME A SECOND TIME, AND THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS NOT UNTIL THOSE WHO ARE BEHEADED IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THAT MEANS THAT PRE-TRIB IS A LIE. SCRIPTURE BACKS UP SCRIPTURE, BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHINGS. SHALOM

I truly get a chucke myself, when people blatanly ignore the facts of words in scripture taken back to their origin, disproving this bogus theory of pre-trib. just so they can stay in their bubble of comfort thinking they won't have to be a part of the tribulation. What is really funny, is when the anti-christ comes on the scene, and they are still here, they'll looking for those who knew the real truth to help them. And then of course you have Rev. 20:4-5 that shuts it all down, yet they choose to be blind.

shroom2 · Feb 21, 2012

Avinu said:

I get a chuckle out of those who are so smug in their belief that they know the truth and everyone else is stupid for not seeing things their way.

As Zilla said, time will tell.

Zilla64007 · Feb 21, 2012

lets look at 1 Corinthians 15, shall we...

15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

this is where pre-tribbers get their idea from... however what they DON'T do, is put this verse into its proper context.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

v53-55 also talks about the same event that is described in v52
what does the Bible say what happens at this rapture?... the corruptible is made incorruptible. the mortal puts on immortality.
what also happens?
DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

WHEN is death swallowed up in victory? CERTAINLY NOT BEFORE THE TRIBULATION.

Avinu · Feb 21, 2012

[QUOTEI get a chuckle out of those who are so smug in their belief that they know the truth and everyone else is stupid for not seeing things their way. ][/QUOTE]

What can I say? When people don't want to see the truth because they're scared. Then it is what it is. Stop twisting Yah's word around and being scared, trust in Him and know what His word says.
Otherwise Hebrews 9:28 wouldn't be saying we eagerly await His SECOND coming.
Also where is your arguement for Rev. 20:4-5, You can't have 2 first resurrections.

Avinu · Feb 21, 2012

lets look at 1 Corinthians 15, shall we...

15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

this is where pre-tribbers get their idea from... however what they DON'T do, is put this verse into its proper context.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

v53-55 also talks about the same event that is described in v52
what does the Bible say what happens at this rapture?... the corruptible is made incorruptible. the mortal puts on immortality.
what also happens?
DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

WHEN is death swallowed up in victory? CERTAINLY NOT BEFORE THE TRIBULATION.

AMEN, AMEN AND AGAIN I SAY, AMEN!!!

2knowhim · Feb 21, 2012

shroom2 said:

I don't think your stupid shroom, just a bit misinformed.
I love you, and I wish the best for you, even if I don't agree
with you.

shroom2 · Feb 21, 2012

Avinu said:

Why is it that when someone disagrees with you they are immediately accused of "twisting scripture"?

shroom2 · Feb 21, 2012

2knowhim said:

The feeling is mutual, 2knowhim.

Avinu · Feb 21, 2012

You can say or do whatever you need to, to justify your unbiblical belief. But everything I say I back with scripture, and not only that I take it back to origin of language and show historical evidence as well depending on topic. The problem is, is you can't disprove it because you're wrong. You can believe what you want, or you can believe in the truth of scripture. Problem is your beliefs are contrary to Yah's Word.
So like I said, where and what proof of arguement do you have for Rev. 20:4-5? You can't have 2 first resurrections.

shroom2 · Feb 21, 2012

Avinu said:

Every person here claims to do that.

and not only that I take it back to origin of language and show historical evidence as well depending on topic.

Click to expand...

That's wonderful.

The problem is, is you can't disprove it because you're wrong.

Click to expand...

Says you. I believe 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4 are talking about Christ returning for the church, and that it will happen before the trib starts. In those sections, we meet Christ in the air. When he returns at the second coming to fight Armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom, he will return TO EARTH, and stand on the mount of olives.

If you're up for a little reading:

Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together

You can believe what you want, or you can believe in the truth of scripture.

Click to expand...

I believe the truth of scripture, just not in some of the ways you interpret it.

Problem is your beliefs are contrary to Yah's Word.

Click to expand...

Some of my beliefs are contrary to yours. I do not believe they are contrary to the word of God.

The two resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 4,5 are the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust, and as revealed by Paul, do not concern the Christian church. Paul made known a mystery (1 Cor 15:51). Christ will be returning before the trib starts to gather the Christian church.

I do not believe the book of revelation concerns us (Christians) as we will be gathered together with Christ before it begins to play out. This timeperiod we are living in, the administration of grace, was not known about in the OT or the gospels. It began on the day of pentecost, and will end with the rapture. Matt 24 is not addressed to Christians. The events in Matt 24 will play out in the book of Revelation.

I believe Christians have been delivered from the wrath to come.

I am fully aware many do not agree with my viewpoint on this, but that's OK.

I am beginning to see why you and SuperDave come to verbal blows so frequently. Your perspective seems to be that it's your way or it's the wrong way, and anyone who disagrees with you is "twisting" scripture and "unbiblical".

...not that I agree with SuperDave on everything....

peterT · Feb 21, 2012

shroom2 said:

Show us were it says a pre-trib coming in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4.

Avinu · Feb 21, 2012

So let me see if I understand you. If Yeshua sneeks in and takes the church, is that not a resurrection? And since those who are beheaded in the tribulation of anti-christ as Rev. 20:4-5 clearly state that they are a part of the first resurrection, how do you explain that?

Grandpa · Feb 21, 2012

Avinu said:

Revelations 20:4-5 doesn't say that the saints that are beheaded are done so during the Great Tribulation.

That is your own personal interpretation.

You have put certain verses together saying they go together. Maybe they do, and maybe they don't. I really don't know.

I just thought I would caution you a little. You know the bible says no prophecy is of a personal interpretation.

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