Re: Thread On Catholic And Other Religions

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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The argument that I am following is the one about my claim:
No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).
The Immaculate Conception is a Roman Catholic doctrine asserting that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved from the effects of Original Sin from the first moment of her conception. The doctrine was defined as a dogma binding on Catholics by Pope Pius IX in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus (1854).

The Bible says nothing whatsoever to support the hypothesis, nor are there any 1st century traditions or oral teachings on the matter.

Scripture verses that stand in opposition:

Romans 3:23
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

1 John 1:8
If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Luke 1:47
"My spirit rejoices in God my savior," (as spoken by Mary herself).
 
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Bede

Guest
Since there is ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS in Scripture of such a fantasy, it is unbiblical. It doesn't need to "contradict" Scripture for it to qualify as hogwash. Even the phrase, "original sin" doesn't appear in Scripture, again allowing the Catholics to weasel out of the allegation.
Shouting "ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS in Scripture of such a fantasy, it is unbiblical" does not disprove my claim.

However, the immaculate conception does contradict Scripture: Romans 3:23.
No that doesn't contradict the doctrine of the Immacualte Conception since it's not addressing original sin but personal sin.
 

Reformyourself

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2020
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Luke 1:46
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary needed a Saviour
I believe she may have received entire sanctification prior to, or at the point of conceiving Jesus though.
However, St bede,
The gospel says that Mary thought Jesus was ‘out of his mind’ at a certain point in His ministry & He virtually disowned her...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
30,839
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No that doesn't contradict the doctrine of the Immacualte Conception since it's not addressing original sin but personal sin.
The Encyclical Mystici Corporis from Pope Pius XII (1943) holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal."
 
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Bede

Guest
The Immaculate Conception is a Roman Catholic doctrine asserting that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved from the effects of Original Sin from the first moment of her conception. The doctrine was defined as a dogma binding on Catholics by Pope Pius IX in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus (1854).

The Bible says nothing whatsoever to support the hypothesis, nor are there any 1st century traditions or oral teachings on the matter.

Scripture verses that stand in opposition:

Romans 3:23
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

1 John 1:8
If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Luke 1:47
"My spirit rejoices in God my savior," (as spoken by Mary herself).
None of those verses contradict the dogma.

The first two are addressing personal sin not original sin.

The last one harmonises with the dogma.
Mary says God is her saviour.
The dogma says she was saved (using you quote) by God
"in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved [saved] free from all stain of original sin",
 
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Bede

Guest
The Encyclical Mystici Corporis from Pope Pius XII (1943) holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal."
That's a different topic.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
30,839
8,914
113
I believe she may have received entire sanctification prior to, or at the point of conceiving Jesus though.
However, St bede,
The gospel says that Mary thought Jesus was ‘out of his mind’ at a certain point in His ministry & He virtually disowned her...
That is true :) Jesus did not elevate Mary above any other, not even for having borne Him.

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out,
“Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”


He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Luke 11:27-28
 
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Bede

Guest
That is true :) Jesus did not elevate Mary above any other, not even for having borne Him.

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out,
“Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”


He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Luke 11:27-28
Yet another topic.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,071
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Shouting "ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS in Scripture of such a fantasy, it is unbiblical" does not disprove my claim.
You're right; shouting (by itself) proves nothing. However, you're standing on thin air.

No that doesn't contradict the doctrine of the Immacualte Conception since it's not addressing original sin but personal sin.
Like I said, weasel words.
 
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Bede

Guest
When someone splatters all kinds of supposed "errors" across a thread it rather implies they don't want a serious discussion on a topic.
 
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Bede

Guest
You're right; shouting (by itself) proves nothing. However, you're standing on thin air.


Like I said, weasel words.
No need to be a bad loser.
 

Reformyourself

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2020
777
256
63
None of those verses contradict the dogma.

The first two are addressing personal sin not original sin.

The last one harmonises with the dogma.
Mary says God is her saviour.
The dogma says she was saved (using you quote) by God
"in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved [saved] free from all stain of original sin",
The dogma is wrong...scripture should not be added to. I was r c too-now I’m a Bible reader
 
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Bede

Guest
Since Jesus did not elevate Mary in any way while the Catholic church clearly does, it seems rather pertinent to the topic.
Whether Jesus elevated Mary or not, and whether Mary was personally sinless, are different topics to the Immaculate Conception.
 

Reformyourself

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2020
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darbys translation-from jeromes vulgate is the same as nkjv
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
30,839
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Whether Jesus elevated Mary or not, and whether Mary was personally sinless, are different topics to the Immaculate Conception.
The topic as you defined it is whether or not Catholic doctrine aligns with or contradicts Scripture.

Despite your protestations to the contrary ;) I quoted you ver batim.

Scripture also states:

people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.

Catholic dogma/doctrine states Mary did not die. This is not found in Scripture.
 

Reformyourself

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2020
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My battery is running out. Let’s pick this up tomorrow please bede. We’ll go through the Gospels together-my version versus your version