Re: Thread On Catholic And Other Religions

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Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#101
Jul 3, 2015
61,187
30,323
113
#101
Bede said:
The argument that I am following is the one about my claim:
No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).
Click to expand...
The Immaculate Conception is a Roman Catholic doctrine asserting that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved from the effects of Original Sin from the first moment of her conception. The doctrine was defined as a dogma binding on Catholics by Pope Pius IX in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus (1854).

The Bible says nothing whatsoever to support the hypothesis, nor are there any 1st century traditions or oral teachings on the matter.

Scripture verses that stand in opposition:

Romans 3:23
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

1 John 1:8
If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Luke 1:47
"My spirit rejoices in God my savior," (as spoken by Mary herself).
 
B

Bede

Guest
#102
#102
Dino246 said:
Since there is ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS in Scripture of such a fantasy, it is unbiblical. It doesn't need to "contradict" Scripture for it to qualify as hogwash. Even the phrase, "original sin" doesn't appear in Scripture, again allowing the Catholics to weasel out of the allegation.
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Shouting "ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS in Scripture of such a fantasy, it is unbiblical" does not disprove my claim.

Dino246 said:
However, the immaculate conception does contradict Scripture: Romans 3:23.
Click to expand...
No that doesn't contradict the doctrine of the Immacualte Conception since it's not addressing original sin but personal sin.
 
R

Reformyourself

Guest
#103
#103
Reformyourself said:
Luke 1:46
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary needed a Saviour
Click to expand...
I believe she may have received entire sanctification prior to, or at the point of conceiving Jesus though.
However, St bede,
The gospel says that Mary thought Jesus was ‘out of his mind’ at a certain point in His ministry & He virtually disowned her...
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#104
Jul 3, 2015
61,187
30,323
113
#104
Bede said:
No that doesn't contradict the doctrine of the Immacualte Conception since it's not addressing original sin but personal sin.
Click to expand...
The Encyclical Mystici Corporis from Pope Pius XII (1943) holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal."
 
B

Bede

Guest
#105
#105
Magenta said:
The Immaculate Conception is a Roman Catholic doctrine asserting that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved from the effects of Original Sin from the first moment of her conception. The doctrine was defined as a dogma binding on Catholics by Pope Pius IX in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus (1854).

The Bible says nothing whatsoever to support the hypothesis, nor are there any 1st century traditions or oral teachings on the matter.

Scripture verses that stand in opposition:

Romans 3:23
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

1 John 1:8
If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Luke 1:47
"My spirit rejoices in God my savior," (as spoken by Mary herself).
Click to expand...
None of those verses contradict the dogma.

The first two are addressing personal sin not original sin.

The last one harmonises with the dogma.
Mary says God is her saviour.
The dogma says she was saved (using you quote) by God
"in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved [saved] free from all stain of original sin",
 
B

Bede

Guest
#106
#106
Magenta said:
The Encyclical Mystici Corporis from Pope Pius XII (1943) holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal."
Click to expand...
That's a different topic.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#107
Jul 3, 2015
61,187
30,323
113
#107
Reformyourself said:
I believe she may have received entire sanctification prior to, or at the point of conceiving Jesus though.
However, St bede,
The gospel says that Mary thought Jesus was ‘out of his mind’ at a certain point in His ministry & He virtually disowned her...
Click to expand...
That is true :) Jesus did not elevate Mary above any other, not even for having borne Him.

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out,
“Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Luke 11:27-28
 
B

Bede

Guest
#108
#108
Magenta said:
That is true :) Jesus did not elevate Mary above any other, not even for having borne Him.

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out,
“Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Luke 11:27-28
Click to expand...
Yet another topic.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#109
Jun 30, 2015
25,623
13,864
113
#109
Bede said:
Shouting "ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS in Scripture of such a fantasy, it is unbiblical" does not disprove my claim.
Click to expand...
You're right; shouting (by itself) proves nothing. However, you're standing on thin air.

Bede said:
No that doesn't contradict the doctrine of the Immacualte Conception since it's not addressing original sin but personal sin.
Click to expand...
Like I said, weasel words.
 
B

Bede

Guest
#110
#110
When someone splatters all kinds of supposed "errors" across a thread it rather implies they don't want a serious discussion on a topic.
 
B

Bede

Guest
#111
#111
Dino246 said:
You're right; shouting (by itself) proves nothing. However, you're standing on thin air.


Like I said, weasel words.
Click to expand...
No need to be a bad loser.
 
R

Reformyourself

Guest
#113
#113
Bede said:
None of those verses contradict the dogma.

The first two are addressing personal sin not original sin.

The last one harmonises with the dogma.
Mary says God is her saviour.
The dogma says she was saved (using you quote) by God
"in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved [saved] free from all stain of original sin",
Click to expand...
The dogma is wrong...scripture should not be added to. I was r c too-now I’m a Bible reader
 
B

Bede

Guest
#114
#114
Magenta said:
Since Jesus did not elevate Mary in any way while the Catholic church clearly does, it seems rather pertinent to the topic.
Click to expand...
Whether Jesus elevated Mary or not, and whether Mary was personally sinless, are different topics to the Immaculate Conception.
 
R

Reformyourself

Guest
#118
#118
darbys translation-from jeromes vulgate is the same as nkjv
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#119
Jul 3, 2015
61,187
30,323
113
#119
Bede said:
Whether Jesus elevated Mary or not, and whether Mary was personally sinless, are different topics to the Immaculate Conception.
Click to expand...
The topic as you defined it is whether or not Catholic doctrine aligns with or contradicts Scripture.

Despite your protestations to the contrary ;) I quoted you ver batim.

Scripture also states:

people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.

Catholic dogma/doctrine states Mary did not die. This is not found in Scripture.
 
R

Reformyourself

Guest
#120
#120
My battery is running out. Let’s pick this up tomorrow please bede. We’ll go through the Gospels together-my version versus your version
 
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