Retire the Ten Commandments?

[preston39]

I doubt that Jesus recognizes North Point Community Church as one of His churches.
Nothing more than a large business using religion as a way to make Andy Stanley very rich and those who attend the ability to leave the service feeling good about their lifestyle.

S....,
You are correct....and I hope not. But, we must be concerned with the young and new in scriptures.
A new age religion interpretation of scriptures....not to be followed. ..."tickle my ears and tell me what I want to hear".

 

[seed_time_harvest]

When scripture speaks of "fulfill", it is not the law it is all the prophecies concerning Him. The words "fulfill the law" has no meaning. It is a fact that trough Jesus we escape death from the law, for through Jesus we are forgiven our sins. When we accept Jesus and ask forgiveness, we die to sin and live in glory through Him. To say Jesus fulfilled the law is not saying this.

All the law and the prophets are summed up In one word,love.

 

[EvangAlived]

Since the Old Covenant has been made obsolete

What do you think that the 'old covenant' is?

What if I can show you from scripture (KJB), it is not God's Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17), but something else?

...Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10).

What specific Law did Paul cite, and where was he quoting from specifically?

...4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
...

I will ask you what I asked another:

It seems like a quotation from Colossians 2:17, yes?

Here is the Bible (KJB):

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:​

​

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.​

Are you interested in studying where Paul is quoting from, and in what context are these words, and their specific meanings? When thoroughly studied prayerfully, Colossians 2, does not designate the holy seventh day the Sabbath of the LORD, of the 4th commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) as "shadow". Are you willing to consider the scriptural evidence of this with me? I am asking for open honest study.

(PS., to mailmandan: I used to actually have a mailman by the name of Dan, and he was a WTS/JW. That is not you is it? Just asking.)

 

[EvangAlived]

All the law and the prophets are summed up In one word,love.

Indeed, and since God is love (1 John 4:8,16), Love is His eternal, unchanging character, and this perfect character is spelled out in His Law (Exodus 20:1-17; Psalms 40:8), which is a transcript of His perfect character of Love:

Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
Exo 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
Exo 33:14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
Exo 33:15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
Exo 33:16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
Exo 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Exo 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Exo 34:2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.
Exo 34:3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.
Exo 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Exo 34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
Exo 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

We know this not only from those texts above, but Jesus also said:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

[memyselfi]

This makes me vey sad if it is true. I love Andy's dad Charles Stanly.

But if the 10 Commandments' have passed then any need for Salvation has too. How can I know I am a sinner in need of a Savior without the Word of G-d? How can I have known I have fallen short of the Glory of G-d if I did not know that Glory is Y-shua and His perfection? He never broke the Law! So how could I know what sin is if I can cannot compare my self to Yeshua/Jesus who NEVER BROKE THE LAE SINCE I CANOT KEEP THE LAW, without the Law? How can I humble myself and think I need a Savor? If there is NO LAW TO KEEP IN THE FIRST PLACE WHY DO I NEED A SAVOR?

 

[mailmandan]

What do you think that the 'old covenant' is?

The old covenant was a conditional agreement that God made with the Israelites. The old covenant was in effect during the dispensation of law. We are not under the law, but under grace. The old covenant has been made "obsolete" to legally put into place the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13)

What if I can show you from scripture (KJB), it is not God's Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17), but something else?

Sounds like SDA propaganda.

The Bible makes it clear that the 10 Commandments were included in “the covenant” that God placed in the ark.

Deuteronomy 4:13-14
“So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. The LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might perform them in the land where you are going over to possess it.”

Deuteronomy 5:2-3
“The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today.”

Deuteronomy 9:9
“When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the LORD had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water.”

Deuteronomy 9:11
“It came about at the end of forty days and nights that the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.”

What specific Law did Paul cite, and where was he quoting from specifically?

Paul cites OT commandments from the Law of Moses regarding responsibilities on how to love your neighbor as yourself (you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet) which are summed up in the call from Leviticus 19:18 to love your neighbor as yourself, and are reiterated under the new covenant: (you shall not commit adultery - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; you shall not murder - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15; you shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28; you shall not covet - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3).

I will ask you what I asked another:

It seems like a quotation from Colossians 2:17, yes?

Here is the Bible (KJB):

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:​

​

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.​

Are you interested in studying where Paul is quoting from, and in what context are these words, and their specific meanings? When thoroughly studied prayerfully, Colossians 2, does not designate the holy seventh day the Sabbath of the LORD, of the 4th commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) as "shadow". Are you willing to consider the scriptural evidence of this with me? I am asking for open honest study.

Sounds like more SDA propaganda.

An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that this is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths." The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek).

Look at Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a,

festival - yearly Sabbaths,
a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,
or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"
CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows.

When this passage is compared with Galatians 4:9 an obvious connection in Paul's teaching is revealed:

"But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years."

Verse 10 flatly states, "you observe...",

days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Colossians 2)
months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Colossians 2)
seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Colossians 2)
and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)

Obviously Paul is clearing speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy days, including the weekly Sabbath.

When God wants to refer to the whole system of Jewish holy days, rather than name them all, He would refer to the yearly, monthly and weekly as representing the whole system. SDA's argue that the Sabbath Day of Colossians 2:16 is the years Sabbaths. But yearly Sabbaths were already referred to in Colossians 2:16 as "festivals". The "Year, Month, Week" pattern is so well established in the Old Testament, that Colossians 2:16 must refer to the weekly Sabbath.

Yearly, monthly, weekly pattern proves it is the weekly sabbath

1 Chronicles 23:31 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 2:4 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 8:13 - Yearly (annual feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 31:3 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Nehemiah 10:33 - Yearly (appointed times), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbaths)

Isaiah 1:13-14 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbath)

Ezekiel 45:17 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Ezek 46:1-11 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbath)

Hosea 2:11 - Yearly (festal assemblies), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Galatians 4:10 - years, months, days

Colossians 2:16 - festival, new moon, Sabbath day

(PS., to mailmandan: I used to actually have a mailman by the name of Dan, and he was a WTS/JW. That is not you is it? Just asking.)

I've never been WTS/JW so it's not me. I do have a couple of customers on my mail route though who constantly talk about and are absolutely obsessed with the Sabbath day. One is SDA and the other attends the Worldwide church of God (Armstrongism). They both like to pass out literature promoting their agendas and one of these men actually told me that I need to tell my employer I cannot work on Saturday because it's the Sabbath day and if I continue to work on Saturday, then my salvation will be in jeopardy.

 

[Chester]

That is not quite accurate. We need to examine the Law of Moses properly to determine what has been fulfilled and what is still in force.

1. The Ten Commandments -- moral, spiritual, and eternal, now written on the hearts and minds of the children of God, and incorporated into the Law of Christ. They are *fulfilled* by individuals when they are applied through the Law of Love and by the Spirit of God. See Romans 13.

2. Commandments pertaining to the tabernacle, the temple, and the Levitical priesthood -- null and void. Believers enter into the Heavenly Sanctuary by faith, where Christ is the Great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. (See the epistle to the Hebrews for all commandments which are null and void.)

3. Commandments pertaining to all animals sacrifices and temple offerings -- null and void. Christ -- the Lamb of God -- fulfilled ALL of these offerings in Himself at the Cross.

4. Commandments pertaining to the tithe -- null and void since the Levitical priesthood is also null and void. Christian giving is "a grace" and "liberality".

5. Commandments pertaining to the feasts, festivals, new moons, holy days, and sabbaths -- null and void. These were shadows, whereas the reality is Christ. The Lord's Day is the Christian sabbath.

6. Commandments pertaining to civil and criminal laws -- still valuable to all governments. These have entered into the laws of Western nations to some degree.

7. Commandments pertaining to dietary restrictions -- null and void. For Christians all meats are to be received with thanksgiving.

8. Commandments pertaining to the consumption of blood ( including meats from strangled animals) -- still applicable to all Christians. These laws were given to Noah, reiterated to Moses, and then reiterated to the Church.

When Christ said that He came to *fulfill* the Law, He revealed that only He could keep the Law perfectly, and then pay the penalty for the violation of all God's laws through His shed blood and His sacrifice on the Cross.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:13,14)

No one can be justified by "the works of the Law". At the same time all Christians are required to produce fruit, and some of those fruit are good works. Eph 2:8-10.

Several questions:

(1) You divide the law neatly into 8 categories: Can you show where the Bible does this?
(2) Can you give proof from the Bible that any part of the law is now "null and void"?

 

[Chester]

ACTS 15
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood...
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

This is part of the story of the early church and is a decision made by a church conference. Nowhere in the New Testament is it stated that not eating blood is a command for the New Testament Christian. (though no matter what I still think drinking blood is a bit gross!)

If this was still a command for the New Testament, it would make rare steaks and hamburgers "illegal" and would mean all our meat would need to be "kosher" so the blood is properly drained.

 

[tourist]

I doubt that Jesus recognizes North Point Community Church as one of His churches.
Nothing more than a large business using religion as a way to make Andy Stanley very rich and those who attend the ability to leave the service feeling good about their lifestyle.

Perhaps it gives the congregation a warm fuzzy feeling deep down inside.

 

[preston39]

Perhaps it gives the congregation a warm fuzzy feeling deep down inside.

t...,
That is like several new, new age religion items that have evolved since the 1960's social and moral revolution.
They are not supported by scripture and are in direct conflict with G-d's meaning and scriptural intent.

 

[EvangAlived]

The old covenant was a conditional agreement that God made with the Israelites.

Indeed. Exodus 19:1-8.

The old covenant was in effect during the dispensation of law.

The New Covenant existed at the same time, since it existed before the 'old covenant', and is called the Everlasting and even Eternal Covenant, and was made between the Father and the Son in eternity, as witnessed by the Holy Ghost. Law always existed, the God's law of Love, Psalms 119:142; see also Psalms 89:3,28,34, 105:8; Isaiah 13:12, 42:6; Malachi 2:5 [Jesus is the True Levi, meaning attached unto His Father], 3:1; John 19:30 [he finished laying the foundation, the words were unto His Father], 17:24 [the agreement in eternity past was made, Jesus kept His word, performed His vows, and now the promise from the Father was to be fulfilled]; John 3:16; John 19:28; Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 13:8; Psalms 40:7-8; Hebrews 10:7-9; Psalms 116:14-18; Ezekiel 38:23; John 17:19; John 10:18; 8:28; Psalms 110:4; Zechariah 6:13.

Adam (Mark 2:27,28) was bound to the same obedience, as Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Moses, etc.

We are not under the law, but under grace.

Indeed. I never said we weren't. I said we are under obligation (through Christ Jesus) to be obedient to God's Law, through Love to Him who first Loved us.

Grace is a teacher:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Psa_119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Psa 4:2 O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.
Psa 4:3 But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.
Psa 4:4 Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.
Psa 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the LORD.

The old covenant has been made "obsolete" to legally put into place the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13)

Indeed. Where did I ever say that a Christian was under obligatin to keep the 'old covenant'? Produce such evidence. I have never said any such thing, nor have I taught here any such thing.

I do not incorrectly assume that the Ten Commandments are the 'old covenant', and read that back into the texts every time the word 'covenant' appears, when in fact, they (Exodus 20:1-17) are not any such thing.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Since the ways of the Lord are equal (Ezeiel 18:25,29), and some seem to think that the 'old covenant' = 'the Law' = "The Ten Commandments" (which is an incorrect and unstudied apriori), then do a little word substitution with the words 'the law' in those two verses, and swap it out for 'old covenant', and see if scripture becomes broken. Let's try:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void [the old covenant] through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish [the old covenant].

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my [old covenant] in their inward parts, and write [the old covenant] in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Scripture is then broken by such faulty and unstudied thinking.

In Jeremiah 31:33 and in Romans 3:31, the Law of God is the Ten Commandments (Jeremiah 6:19, 9:13, 16:11, 26:4, 31:33, 44:10; see also Exodus 16:4; 2 Chronicles 6:16; Psalms 40:8; 78:1, 89:30; Proverbs 4:2, 7:2; Isaiah 8:6, 51:7; Ezekiel 22:26; Hosea 8:1,12), not ever the 'old covenant', and there is not a single verse in scripture (KJB) which says that it is. It is incorrectly assumed.

 

[EvangAlived]

Sounds like SDA propaganda.

Ad hominem and may be safely ignored.

The Bible makes it clear that the 10 Commandments were included in “the covenant” that God placed in the ark (citing Deuteronomy 4:13-14, 5:2-3, 9:9,11)

Indeed, but by so saying, you just agreed to my position, in that the Ten Commandments are not the 'old covenant' itself, but are instead are the terms thereof. Read Exodus 19:1-18, and you will see two covenants there. God's "my covenant" (also "His Covenant") ( which is the Eternal Law of God, and the 'old covenant', which were hte promsies of the people to obey God in their own strength, saying, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do".

They did not keep their faulty promises.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

What was the "covenant made with their fathers"? Not the Ten Commandment. Those were the terms to obey in the "covenant" made. Here is the actual 'old covenant':

Exo 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
Exo 19:2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Their agreement and promises to obey God's voice at all times, is the 'old covenant'. The "my covenant" is the Ten Commandments.

 

[EvangAlived]

Paul cites OT commandments from the Law of Moses regarding responsibilities on how to love your neighbor as yourself (you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet) which are summed up in the call from Leviticus 19:18 to love your neighbor as yourself, and are reiterated under the new covenant: (you shall not commit adultery - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; you shall not murder - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15; you shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28; you shall not covet - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3).

Indeed. Leviticus 19:17-18, are in the context of the Ten Commandments, since it deals with "sin", see:

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

So also the Love God:

Deu 6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
Deu 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
Deu 6:3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Moses had just re-iterated the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5 (Deuteronomy 5:6-21), the "these words".

These "words", the Ten Commandments, are what the Holy Ghost writes upon the fleshy Tables of the Heart (the frontal lobe of the brain is Two Hemispheres, when looked at straight on, are as two tables, tablets), even as He had written them on Tables of Stone (as the hardened heart of sin was); Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16; Ezekiel 36:25-29, 37:26-28; 2 Corinthians 3:3; etc.

 

[EvangAlived]

Sounds like more SDA propaganda.

Again, Ad hominem, and may be safely ignored.

An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that this is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths."

Let's look then shall we, unbiasedly?

Context, Colossians 2:14, "ordinances", not God's Law.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

The order is given as:

[1] "daily" [in meat, or in drink [offerings]],
[2] "seasonally" [or in respect of an holyday; ie feast days of seasons, Spring, Fall]
[3] "monthly" [of the new moon]
[4] "annually, yearly, and 7th year and 50th Year" ["of the sabbath [days]" [plural]].

Paul is citing, several passages in Colossians 2. in this instance, He is citing, Ezekiel 45:17. The order of progression is specific.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Colossians 2 KJB, parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB.

The language is the same.

The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly "new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "my [as in God's] sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB], are God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17), never "ordinances" as Passover (Numbers 9:12) etc.

Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by year"

[ps. none of the Ten Commandments deal with carnal sacrifices]

etc.

The text speaks of plural, "sabbath days" (or 'of sabbaths'). The context, is also not concerned with all 'sabbaths' but is limited in scope, to that which is "shadow" (not light, not body or substance), that which is "of things to come" (type pointing to the future events) and of "ordinances", as follows.

[1] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, of Creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), was given to mankind (Adam) before the sin of mankind (Mark 2:27), before the need of shadow and type, which were given after the sin of mankind, under the Levitical priesthood.

[2] The Sabbath of the LORD the God, is a memorial (pointing backwards, thu the words "Remember" (Exodus 20:8)), to a perfect world without sin, perfect relationship, perfect rest), and is not pointing to the future.

[3] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is singular and specific. "The seventh day" "the sabbath" "of the LORD thy God".

Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:9 KJB - Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exodus 20:10 KJB - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exodus 20:11 KJB - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 20:8 HOT - זכור את־יום השׁבת לקדשׁו׃
Exodus 20:9 HOT - שׁשׁת ימים תעבד ועשׂית כל־מלאכתך׃
Exodus 20:10 HOT - ויום השׁביעי שׁבת ליהוה אלהיך לא־תעשׂה כל־מלאכה אתה ובנך־ובתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשׁר בשׁעריך׃
Exodus 20:11 HOT - כי שׁשׁת־ימים עשׂה יהוה את־השׁמים ואת־הארץ את־הים ואת־כל־אשׁר־בם וינח ביום השׁביעי על־כן ברך יהוה את־יום השׁבת ויקדשׁהו׃

Exodus 20:8 HOT Translit. - zäkhôr et-yôm haSHaBät l'qaD'shô
Exodus 20:9 HOT Translit. - shëshet yämiym Taávod w'äsiytä Käl-m'lakh'Tekhä
Exodus20:10 HOT Translit. -w'yôm haSH'viyiy shaBät layhwäh éloheykhä lo-taáseh khäl-m'läkhäh aTäh ûvin'khä-ûviTekhä av'D'khä waámät'khä ûv'hem'Tekhä w'gër'khä ásher Bish'äreykhä
Exodus 20:11 HOT Translit. - Kiy shëshet-yämiym äsäh y'hwäh et-haSHämayim w'et-hääretz et-haYäm w'et-Käl-ásher-Bäm waYänach BaYôm haSH'viyiy al-Kën Bërakh' y'hwäh et-yôm haSHaBät way'qaD'shëhû š

[4] The Sabbath of the LORD is separate from the yearly festal sabbaths, as denoted in Leviticus 23 (see Leviticus 23:3; then see Leviticus 23:4,38 "beside the sabbaths of the LORD")

[5] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is called "the sabbath of the LORD" (Exodus 20:8-11, etc), and "My sabbaths" (Isaiah 56:4; Ezekiel 20:20), as opposed to theirs, called "your sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,35), and "her sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,43; 2 Chronicles 26:31; Lamentations 1:7; Hosea 2:11), etc.

[6] Colossians 2, in its entire context says nothing about "the seventh day", but speaks of merely the shadow sabbaths (plural, not singular), and says nothing of "commandment" (as Luke 23:54,56 does), but speaks of wordly "ordinances" (Colossians 2:14,20).

[7] Colossians 2, speaks of "sins" (Colossian 2:13), which is "transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4), of which the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) is central, whereas the yearly (and of years) sabbaths are not given in the Ten Commandments at all

More can be said, but 7 was a good number to round it off at this point, more in detail in a bit.

(PS there is no such thing as "the LXX", and is actually by Origen and another. Evidence upon request.)

 

[EvangAlived]

I've never been WTS/JW so it's not me

Ok. You teach what they [WTS/JW] teach just the same. In fact, you use the same argumentation.

 

[EvangAlived]

Ezekiel 45:17 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Read the context, for presently you are assuming an incorrect ideology in regards what "sabbaths" is being spoken of in Ezekiel 45:17:

Context:

Ezekiel 45:7 KJB - And a portion shall be for the prince on the one side and on the other side of the oblation of the holy portion, and of the possession of the city, before the oblation of the holy portion, and before the possession of the city, from the west side westward, and from the east side eastward: and the length shall be over against one of the portions, from the west border unto the east border.

Ezekiel 45:8 KJB - In the land shall be his possession in Israel: and my princes shall no more oppress my people; and the rest of the land shall they give to the house of Israel according to their tribes.

Ezekiel 45:9 KJB - Thus saith the Lord GOD; Let it suffice you, O princes of Israel: remove violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice, take away your exactions from my people, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 45:10 KJB - Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.

Ezekiel 45:11 KJB - The ephah and the bath shall be of one measure, that the bath may contain the tenth part of an homer, and the ephah the tenth part of an homer: the measure thereof shall be after the homer.

Ezekiel 45:12 KJB - And the shekel shall be twenty gerahs: twenty shekels, five and twenty shekels, fifteen shekels, shall be your maneh.

Ezekiel 45:13 KJB - This is the oblation that ye shall offer; the sixth part of an ephah of an homer of wheat, and ye shall give the sixth part of an ephah of an homer of barley:

Ezekiel 45:14 KJB - Concerning the ordinance of oil, the bath of oil, ye shall offer the tenth part of a bath out of the cor, which is an homer of ten baths; for ten baths are an homer:

Ezekiel 45:15 KJB - And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 45:16 KJB - All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel.

Ezekiel 45:17 KJB - And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 45:18 KJB - Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary:

Ezekiel 45:19 KJB - And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.

Ezekiel 45:20 KJB - And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house.

Ezekiel 45:21 KJB - In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

Ezekiel 45:22 KJB - And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.

Ezekiel 45:23 KJB - And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.

Ezekiel 45:24 KJB - And he shall prepare a meat offering of an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and an hin of oil for an ephah.

Ezekiel 45:25 KJB - In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.

Speaks of the worldly sanctuary, and its ordinances, oil, and its daily offerings, seasonal [spring/fall] feasts days [beginning with cleansing the house/temple, vs 18-20; beginning with Passover and ending with Tabernacles, see vs 21-25], monthly new moons, and the yearly [single year, 7th and 50th of Leviticus 23:4 onward and Leviticus 25] sabbaths because of sin [1 John 3:4 KJB]. It is given in increasing order, and surrounded by the offerings for the "house" [temple, sanctuary, tabernacle].

God's Law, the Exodus 20:8-11 KJB and the weekly 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD, says nothing about oil, offerings, seasonal feast days, moons, yearly sabbaths, ordinances, wordly sanctuary.

 

[EvangAlived]

Yearly, monthly, weekly pattern proves it is the weekly sabbath

You assumed quite a bit, and lumped all sabbaths together. God makes a clear distinction in Exodus 20:8-11, and again in Leviticus 23, as well as Numbers 28:

Furthermore, Numbers 28, is in contrast to the other verses, notice:

Numbers 28:9-10 is the weekly 7th Day, since it states "the sabbath day", and "every sabbath", literally "sabbath to sabbath [Numbers 28:10 HOT Translit. - olat shaBat B'shaBaTô al-olat haTämiyd w'niš'KäH š, which is similar to Isaiah 66:23 HOT Translit. - w'häyäh miDëy-chodesh B'chäd'shô ûmiDëy shaBät B'shaBaTô yävô khäl-Bäsär l'hish'Tacháwot l'fänay ämar y'hwäh].

Notice, that Numbers 28, delineates the 7th day before all the others.

Numbers 28:1-8 KJB, is the "continual" or "day by day" offerings, aka 'the daily'.

Numbers 28:9-10 KJB, is the "every sabbath" on "the sabbath day", which is the weekly 7th day Sabbath offerings.

Numbers 28:11-15 KJB, is the "beginnings of your months", and "every month", or monthly offerings.

Numbers 28:16-25 KJB is the "in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" and "in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread", which is the seasonal feast of Passover and of unleavened bread of the spring, and would be the spring seasonal offering, or even the first feast of the religious year offering.

Numbers 28:26-31 KJB is the "in the day of the firstfruits" and "after your weeks", or the seaonal wavesheaf offering along with Pentecost [feast of weeks], which basically closes the seasonal spring feasts.

Numbers 29:1-6 KJB continues them of the seasonal feasts "in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets", which is the seasonal fall feast of Trumpets and its offerings.

Numbers 29:7-11 KJB is the "have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein", "of atonement", or the seasonal fall feast of the day of atonement offering.

Numbers 29:12-40 KJB is the "on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days", which is the final seasonal fall feast of booths/ingathering/tabernacles offerings. Which completes the full offerings in the year.

This is undisputed, and undisputable.

The 7th day is never listed last, and in Numbers 28 it is in increasing order (daily, weekly, seasonly, monthly, yearly). Even as in Leviticus 23, followed by all the other materials, the daily meat and drink offerings, seasonal feast days, monthly new moons, and of years (yearly) sabbaths.

 

[EvangAlived]

Please carefully read the words again in Colossians 2:17, for it says that they [presently, “are” still types in Levitical law] “are a shadow” of “things to come” [future, antitype of their reality/body in Christ Jesus' ministry, then in His earthly and now also in the Heavenly], and thus were [antitypically] future from when they were given as types in the days of Moses, and some were still yet [antitypically] future from the days of Paul, which is why he stated it this way under inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

Colossians 2:17 KJB Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Let's now delve into this a bit further, asking some very important questions along the way, and studying prayerfully about them:

First the context, so that you may know I have indeed read it:

Colossians 2:1 KJB For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

Colossians 2:1 KJB That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 2:1 KJB In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Colossians 2:1 KJB And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

Colossians 2:1 KJB For though I be absent in he flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

Colossians 2:1 KJB As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:

Colossians 2:1 KJB Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Colossians 2:1 KJB Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:1 KJB For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:1 KJB And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:1 KJB In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:1 KJB Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:1 KJB And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:1 KJB Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:1 KJB [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:1 KJB Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Colossians 2:1 KJB Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

Colossians 2:1 KJB Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Colossians 2:1 KJB And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Colossians 2:1 KJB Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Colossians 2:1 KJB (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Colossians 2:1 KJB Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Colossians 2:1 KJB Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[EvangAlived]

The questions:

[1] Where is Paul quoting from in the Old Testament specifically, in regards to Colossians 2:14-17?​

​

There are several texts Paul is utilizing [for ex. Psalms 98:1-3 for just a single reference, are there then any others?], and it is easy to see, especially with the KJB.​

​

Consider again, Colossians 2:15:​

​

Colossians 2:15 KJB - [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.​

​

Now, consider Psalms 98:1-3:​

​

[[A Psalm.]] O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory. Psalms 98:1​

​

The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen. Psalms 98:2​

​

He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Psalms 98:3​

​

The English is plain enough, but even if you consider the underlying Greek [since people like to play the Greek/Hebrew game] of Colossians 2:15, "ἐδειγμάτισεν" ["made a shew of them openly"] is also similarly used in Matthew 1:19 and Hebrews 6:6, as "παραδειγματίσαι" ["a publick example"] and "παραδειγματίζοντας" ["to an open shame"] respectively.​

​

The two sets of phrases,​

​

[1] "χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν" and​

​

[2] "ἐδειγμάτισεν"​

​

are interesting.​

​

Also, the word “spoiled”, in the underlying Greek is “απεκδυσαμενος”, and is used again in Colossians 3:9, where it reads “have put off”, meaning to “strip away” [remove] as a garment being laid aside, removed, de-robed, unclothed, etc.​

​

The words “the principalities and the powers” in the underlying Greek is “τας αρχας και τας εξουσιας”, which are also used in Ephesians 3:10, 6:12; Colossians 1:16; Titus 3:1. These may refer to heavenly intelligences [unfallen or fallen] or earthly intelligences [mankind - righteous or wicked].​

​

Additionally, “τας αρχας και τας εξουσιας” is also found in Luke 12:11, as “[unto] magistrates and powers”.​

​

Furthermore, “τη αρχη και τη εξουσια” is found in Luke 20:20, as “the power and authority”.​

​

In Romans 8:38, we read slightly differently, “ουτε αρχαι ουτε δυναμεις” which is “nor principalities, nor powers”.​

​

In 1 Corinthians 15:24, it is given as “αρχην και πασαν εξουσιαν και δυναμιν”, which is “all rule and all authority and power”.​

​

In Ephesians 1:21, we read “πασης αρχης και εξουσιας και δυναμεως”, which is “all principality, and power, and might”.​

​

In Colossians 2:10, we read “πασης αρχης και εξουσιας”, which is “all principality and power”.​

​

Jude 1:6, also mentions the “αρχην”, the Arch-Offices [estates].​

 

[Embankment]

WASHINGTON – A mega-pastor of one of the largest “evangelical” churches in the U.S. is attacking the Old Testament again, this time insisting Jesus rendered the Ten Commandments null and void, issuing one new law “as a replacement for everything.” Andy Stanley, pastor of the 34,000-member North Point Community Church in suburban Atlanta, who famously advised his flock to “unhitch” from the Old Testament in a sermon last spring, has now penned an article promoting his new book saying laws such as “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” and “Thou shalt not kill” are no longer relevant to Christians living in the New Covenant era……Read More


He must have been talking with the pope.

A new, new age religion concept........."great deceptions in the end times".

The Bible does not change. People try to change the Bible....by reinterpretation or a new bible edition.

This is not even believable. To the dung heap.

It’s not new age, It’s being able to read.