Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[newbirth]

Alligator, even in the midst of your sin you are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Remember that, and also know that the Lord doesn't condemn you. He loves you. Even when you are in sin, He loves you. Imagine, even when we were sinners, He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for you. Your sin is washed by the blood of Christ, and He remembers your sins no more.

You may sin, but it doesn't make you a sinner. In the OT when someone sinned, they did so as a sinner. There was no righteous act a sinner could do to be a non-sinner. in the same way, we are the righteousness of God, and there is no sin we can do to make us unrighteous. It (the righteousness) wasn't based on us to begin with, but it was imputed to us by what Christ did.

1 John 3:5-9

King James Version (KJV)

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


I am curious of your interpretation of these verses? I will give you a hint. It has to do with our nature(hence being born-again. Second hint, old man being put off). I know that Christians still do things of the flesh, but remember that we are born-again. We have put off the sin nature(not we, but Christ has circumcised us) and are a new creation. Once spiritually dead and now made alive. You throw those verses at me as to insinuate this His Word is not in me, but you take my words and even these words(the verses) out of context. That or you misunderstand what is being said, Alligator.

My tip to you on the verses you quoted, to try to insinuate the Word isn't in me, is to study those verses and look into Gnosticism and how John had to deal with that. Those verses are basically refuting the position of Gnosticism.

To clarify, though a Christian may perform an act that is considered to be sinful, it by no means make the Christian a sinner. His sin nature has been put off, he is a new creation in Christ. To sin would go contrary to his new nature, but that doesn't mean he doesn't commit such acts.

Are you a saint or a sinner? The NT never calls you a sinner once you've accepted Christ. Any time the churches were addressed they were addressed as saints... I mean, look at the Corinthian church:

1 Corinthians 6:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

it goes on to say...


9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

We are saints, the body of Christ is made out of saints. Once sinners, but now saints. To say that we are sinners saved by grace, is inaccurate. We were sinners saved by grace. We are now saints standing in that grace. Not that we have done something to be called a saint, but because of Christ. This isn't self-righteousness, because no one is a saint based upon their conduct. They are so called a saint because of Christ and the new-birth (which is because of Christ). One could say we are sinners saved by grace, but it neglects the fact of the old nature being put off and being a new creation (sin nature being circumcised by Christ, through baptism). We were crucified with Christ. To identify ourselves with who we were, is to deny who we have become in Christ.

I don't know if I worded this improperly(or not) and gave off the wrong vibe or some holiness doctrine that we are saints and not sinners, but this isn't being said as a self-righteous thing. We did nothing to be called saints, it is not our conduct and is nothing we can boast of. Just like you can't boast about your salvation, as it was all by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I suppose its a mindset thing, but not necessarily. Its a truth thing. Our old nature(sin nature) has been put off.

“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17, emphasis mine).

If you're offended by this post, sorry saint. It isn't meant to be offensive, but thought provoking.

This is the end of the matter Jesus has spoken listen to his words not mine ... for it is in that day we all hope to be on his right hand.
[h=3]Matthew 7:20-26[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 

[Kerry]

Ignorant people. works are an effect, the cause is faith in the cross. You have an ear to hear let them hear>

 

[JGIG]

You know my answer to that, EG. Of course one is not sinless because they believe. But, has anyone ever heard of a raping Christian? A thieving Christian? One cannot live a double-life. One is either walking with the Lord or away from the Lord or has never started the walk.

We cannot limit habitual sinning to just the horrific sins, otherwise, we would have Christians justifying their lifestyles of being Liars, Deceivers, Malingerers, Whisperers, Backbiters, Boasters, Covenant Breakers, Haters, etc.... (Rom 1:29-33)

Which covenant are you speaking of there, cfultz?

If it's the Old Covenant, well, that's all of mankind except Christ Jesus. No one has ever or will ever keep the Old Covenant perfectly. And perfection is the standard of our Holy God.

If it's the New Covenant, you would need to explain how one breaks a covenant where the covenant Makers and keepers are God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They made the New Covenant amongst themselves; we who believe in the Work of Christ enter into the New Covenant by faith.

Its ratification (the Cross) resulting in the forgiveness of the sins of the world (1 Jn 2:2) and consequent gifts of righteousness and new life are all works outside of man. How exactly are you going to break that agreement made between God and Himself?

You can choose to not enter into the New Covenant by faith, but if you do choose to enter in by faith, once you enter in, the free gifts intrinsic to the Covenant KEEP you in (the righteousness of God and the seal of the Holy Spirit, Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5, and Eph. 1), and as a believer, you have a Perfect, Forever High Priest Who represents you in the heavenly tabernacle based on HIS WORK, not your works (Heb. 7-10).

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Your answer is....................

Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Conditional Security contradicts the whole of the message of the letter to the Hebrews.

Hebrews is all about how the New Covenant is a better Covenant that is built on better promises than the Old.

Repeated confession and repentance is reducing the New Covenant down to Old Covenant practice minus animal sacrifices.

What you're doing is WORSE - putting the Blood of the New Covenant to shame by saying that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Conditional Security folks will usually use Hebrews 10:26 to say that too much sinning, and look out, you'll lose your salvation - you better 'get right' with God and fly straight, while at the same time preaching that in Hebrews 6 it teaches that once you've tasted the goodness of God, if you fall away, too bad, so sad, there is no coming back to repentance!

There is no hope in that message - it is not Good News, and by definition, not the Gospel. Not to mention it's completely double minded!

The repeated sinning spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 is the repeated sin of unbelief - that is an unsaved person. Once one receives Christ and His righteousness, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing them for the day of redemption (Romans 5, Ephesians 1).

Hebrews 6, when it talks about how it's impossible to return to repentance, is speaking of the repentance unto salvation.

Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, He GUARANTEES you - delivers you allllllll the way to the day of Redemption.

It's impossible to drift in and out of a state of forgiveness - it's impossible to be brought BACK to salvation because you cannot be UNsaved once saved - because you ARE SO SECURE in Christ's Hand, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.

Does that mean we never repent as Christians? No. Repentance is a change of mind and heart (a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done as G3341 - metanoia, the Greek word for repentance).

As believers, we change our minds and hearts as we grow and mature in Christ to line up more an more with what He says about us and who we are in Christ. As what we believe lines up more and more with what God says, our behavior changes to more and more reflect the Character of Christ. It's about the renewal of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and the bearing of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit as we learn to be led by Him (Galatians 5).

What you are advocating is a return to Old Covenant practices - that is putting yourself under your own constructed version of law (repent, confess, rinse and repeat ad nauseam, not recognizing the Finished Work of Christ able to save you COMPLETELY), and if you are under law, you are not led by the Spirit, and not bearing His Fruit.

You're out here telling people that ANY sin they commit is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Scripture tells people that if they are in Christ, they are the very Righteousness of God in Christ, and God is no longer holding their sins, ANY of their sins, against them (Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5).

That's Good News! That's the Gospel of Grace \o/!

I'm goin' with what Scripture says!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Yes, they are the unknown sins. Somewhere someone said that those 'unknown' sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

I understand what you are saying and agree with you to the till concerning unknown sins.

So we come to 'willful' habitual sinning. That sort of sin where one casts aside (throw aside) there assurance and walk in willful habitual sin (ignoring the Spirit in His conviction and willfully continuing to walk away and remaining in that sin being convicted of).

Known, unknown . . . sin is sin is sin . . . ALL sin was dealt with at the Cross.

Why do you keep trying to think up sins that are not forgiven? Or if you commit them enough times, they fall into an 'unforgiven' category?

What Christ did at the Cross was MORE than enough to provide the forgiveness for the sins of the ENTIRE WORLD.

What, you think YOU have some special sin that you were good enough at hiding from God and/or yourself that He couldn't find it to forgive it?

Really?

Sheesh.

Pride does weird stuff to people's thought processes.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

God has made it so simple for us , yet we entangle ourselves in things that bring divisions. We were saved by faith and we will continually be saved by faith,"I thank God for that". Our faith is being counted as righteousness that is why we can stand before the throne of Grace. Now the faith we have in God produces the good works in us through the urging of the spirit. "We are led by the Spirit" I hope no one depends on the works they perform to aid in their salvation.
Philippians 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

More from the letter to the Philippians:

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

This is scary stuff my friend....what does faith mean to you? If you trust and hope in God you will obey his Son... and he will raise you up on the last day.So your faith is indicated by your works...the faith saves but the good works show that you have that faith. So if there is no good works then I must conclude you have no faith and if you have no faith then you are not saved. I pray that God opens our understanding that we may see his glourious light.

. . . because it's your job to determine who's saved and who's not . . . said God . . . never . . .

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

2Pe 1:4    by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.2Pe 1:5    For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,2Pe 1:6    and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,2Pe 1:7    and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.2Pe 1:8    For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.2Pe 1:9    For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

Now I wonder why Peter didn't mention future sins?

Perhaps because they were sins no longer belonging to him:

G3819 - palai
​

1. of old, former​
2. long ago​

'Sins' in that passage is also a noun (G266 - hamartia), not a verb (G264 - hamartanō), so is all-inclusive of any sin ever having had anything to do with the believer. That's past, present, and future sin; no exclusions.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad how conditional security folks take passages that are clearly all about Grace and the Work of Christ on our behalf that are written in order to build up and encourage the Body about who She is in Christ and try to turn them into passages about how God didn't do what He said He did at the Cross. Check out the 2 Peter 1 passage in context:

1To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
​

That passage is sooooo not what you say it's about.

It's total encouragement and edification of the believer, reassuring the believer of the Truths of who they are in Christ "by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ!"

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Christ died once for all the sins of mankind. Going forward , if we remain faithful and confess our sins they will be forgiven as always. See first John 1:7–9.

Al, think on this: According to 1 Jn. 1:9, how much unrighteousness does he who confesses their sins get cleansed of?

Some?

Just the unrighteousness they've racked up to that point?

How much does it say?

And on Whose faithfulness does it rely?

And why does God throw in the term 'just' in there?

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

How much unrighteousness are we cleansed of?

All.

On Whose faithfulness does it rely?

He Who forgives.

Why does God throw in the term 'just' in there?

He uses that term because ALL sin was dealt with at the Cross; it will never be punished again.

Therefore it is a just act that you are forgiven of all of your unrighteousness (past, present, and future sins), because to punish you for sins already bled and died for would be unjust on God's part.

His Wrath was already fully poured out - the punishment for all of the sins of the world for all time - on Christ. To punish ANY of those sins again would be an unjust act by God.


-JGIG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No I am not.

Did you read Mark 16:16-18?

What does that have to do with anything?

1. We are not even sure that is part of scripture
2. It does not prove that everyone who does works are saved.
3. It does not prove your point!

Did you read Matthew 7:21-23?

Yeah i did, And it proves a fact. many people do works trying to get to heaven by their works. But what does Jesus say? Depart. FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU (THEY WERE NEVER SAVED) Again your context is wrent to peaces because your not taking into account WHO is being spoken to and about.

If so, then how can you keep arguing?

How can you keep ignoring context? And who it is that is being spoken to and about?

Or how about the other bible quotes i have posted.

they prove nothing

If I am telling you my "prespective" or my "interpretation", then can you please explain what this means:

John 6:27-29
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Yeah I can.

The son of God is offering meat which one can eat and it will sustain life forever. One who eats this meat will never hunger or thirst, Live forever, Never die, Has eternal life, And will be raised by him on the last day (taking the WHOLE passage in context. not just a few verses)

So what do the people say?

What work must we do then?

What was the reply. IT IS THE WORK OF GOD.

End of story, it is not your work, it is GODS WORK.

And the people of matt 7 did not partake of this spiritual meat. how do we know? They died forever, they did not live forever (spiritually speaking)

and can you explain what this means:

James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

What profit, or gain will a person have if he CLAIMS to have faith, but has ZERO works. Can that particular kind of faith save him??

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

As people who have faith in Christ WILL do works (eph 2:10) and they would feed them or help them. and not be like the world, and be self centered. (in other words, they would be like Christ)

Even sp. Faith, if not followed by works is DEAD (Non Existent)

Can a dead (non Existent faith save you? Does mere belief in God and Jesus get you to heaven? James is saying NO!

Who are the people he is talking to? People out doing works?? People doing thing??

NO!!

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; [SUP]24 [/SUP]for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Are these people saved? No

Where they ever saved? No

So whats your point?

and can you also explain what this means:

James 2:18

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Yeah.

I will prove my faith is real. By showing the works which all people who have faith will do

You prove to me your faith is real. by showing some works which will come from true faith.

and can you explain this too please:

James 2:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Your joking right?

How many times do you have to be told that a dead faith is NO FAITH AT ALL?

Is a person saved who does not have faith in Christ? If you think they are, or ever were. you do not understand the word of God. Sorry, but that is just the truth.

For By Grace we HAVE BEEN saved BY FAITH

No faith, No salvation.

No spirit (in the body) No salvation.

and this too please:

2 Timothy 3:17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

yeah, That a man of God, Given the spirit of God, may be thoroughly equiped to do whatever God has created him to do.

And this proves your point how?

Can you explain this?

John 6:

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood, Whoever eats the bread I shall give him, Whoever eats the meat I am offering will.

Never hunger
Never thirst
Never die
Live forever
Has eternal life
will never be lost by Jesus
Will be raised by jesus (vs being delivered to him at the great white throne)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Conditional Security contradicts the whole of the message of the letter to the Hebrews.

Hebrews is all about how the New Covenant is a better Covenant that is built on better promises than the Old.

Repeated confession and repentance is reducing the New Covenant down to Old Covenant practice minus animal sacrifices.

What you're doing is WORSE - putting the Blood of the New Covenant to shame by saying that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Conditional Security folks will usually use Hebrews 10:26 to say that too much sinning, and look out, you'll lose your salvation - you better 'get right' with God and fly straight, while at the same time preaching that in Hebrews 6 it teaches that once you've tasted the goodness of God, if you fall away, too bad, so sad, there is no coming back to repentance!

There is no hope in that message - it is not Good News, and by definition, not the Gospel. Not to mention it's completely double minded!

The repeated sinning spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 is the repeated sin of unbelief - that is an unsaved person. Once one receives Christ and His righteousness, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing them for the day of redemption (Romans 5, Ephesians 1).

Hebrews 6, when it talks about how it's impossible to return to repentance, is speaking of the repentance unto salvation.

Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, He GUARANTEES you - delivers you allllllll the way to the day of Redemption.

It's impossible to drift in and out of a state of forgiveness - it's impossible to be brought BACK to salvation because you cannot be UNsaved once saved - because you ARE SO SECURE in Christ's Hand, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.

Does that mean we never repent as Christians? No. Repentance is a change of mind and heart (a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done as G3341 - metanoia, the Greek word for repentance).

As believers, we change our minds and hearts as we grow and mature in Christ to line up more an more with what He says about us and who we are in Christ. As what we believe lines up more and more with what God says, our behavior changes to more and more reflect the Character of Christ. It's about the renewal of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and the bearing of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit as we learn to be led by Him (Galatians 5).

What you are advocating is a return to Old Covenant practices - that is putting yourself under your own constructed version of law (repent, confess, rinse and repeat ad nauseam, not recognizing the Finished Work of Christ able to save you COMPLETELY), and if you are under law, you are not led by the Spirit, and not bearing His Fruit.

You're out here telling people that ANY sin they commit is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Scripture tells people that if they are in Christ, they are the very Righteousness of God in Christ, and God is no longer holding their sins, ANY of their sins, against them (Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5).

That's Good News! That's the Gospel of Grace \o/!

I'm goin' with what Scripture says!

-JGIG

"you must spread some reputation around before giving it to JGIG again."

Wow Just wow sis. Amen and Amen.

 

[Hungry]

Way to kick the hornet nest SeaBass. What you started here is nonproductive because you are not the judge. It's like telling a baby who just learned to walk to go do some hurdles. Here is where your arguments fail. Not all are at the same spot on our Christian walk. Faith in Christ and committing to Him is in fact all that is needed for salvation. However if you have indeed committed He will begin a work in you and the evidence of this is that the believer will take on the likeness of Christ and will do works. Jesus disciples His followers, nurturing them and preparing them for ministry, then He calls them minister. Don't beat the children of God SeaBass. I do agree that many are deceiving themselves and think they are going to be saved that aren't. Those people are most likely not seeking fellowship and edification on a Christian chat Site. That is just my opinion. I believe you are just wanting to be helpful but try not to discourage those who are less mature.

 

[cfultz3]

Which covenant are you speaking of there, cfultz?

If it's the Old Covenant, well, that's all of mankind except Christ Jesus. No one has ever or will ever keep the Old Covenant perfectly. And perfection is the standard of our Holy God.

If it's the New Covenant, you would need to explain how one breaks a covenant where the covenant Makers and keepers are God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They made the New Covenant amongst themselves; we who believe in the Work of Christ enter into the New Covenant by faith.

Its ratification (the Cross) resulting in the forgiveness of the sins of the world (1 Jn 2:2) and consequent gifts of righteousness and new life are all works outside of man. How exactly are you going to break that agreement made between God and Himself?

You can choose to not enter into the New Covenant by faith, but if you do choose to enter in by faith, once you enter in, the free gifts intrinsic to the Covenant KEEP you in (the righteousness of God and the seal of the Holy Spirit, Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5, and Eph. 1), and as a believer, you have a Perfect, Forever High Priest Who represents you in the heavenly tabernacle based on HIS WORK, not your works (Heb. 7-10).

-JGIG

No covenant in particular, but one who does not keep contracts, contract breakers.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No covenant in particular, but one who does not keep contracts, contract breakers.......

Hey bro,

You do understand the difference between conditional and non conditional covenants do you not?

Abraham had a non conditional covenant (along with Israel)

Moses covenant was conditional. (which is why it was weak, it depended on us)

the new covenant is greater than both. And it is non conditional. God said I WILL..

 

[cfultz3]

Which covenant are you speaking of there, cfultz?

Although in that list, it means contract breakers, I will try to reply.

If it's the Old Covenant, well, that's all of mankind except Christ Jesus. No one has ever or will ever keep the Old Covenant perfectly. And perfection is the standard of our Holy God.

If all those who were under the Old Covenant broke that Covenant, then there would have been no righteous saints of that Covenant for Jesus to have brought up with Him when He rose. Though they broke the Law, inasmuch as we do, they had sacrifices to keep them under that Covenant, which we have in Jesus, and by which, they received their Deliverer. But, they who did not do those sacrifices (walked away from those sacrifices), neither had a covering for their sins, inasmuch as we do not have a covering if we count the blood of Jesus as unworthy and walk away from it.

If it's the New Covenant, you would need to explain how one breaks a covenant where the covenant Makers and keepers are God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God was the Covenant Maker and Keeper of the Old Covenant, yet no one will ignore the fact that a lot of people exit that Covenant on their own choice. There is no difference now, if one is free to enter that Covenant, then one is as free to exit that Covenant. To say that one is not free is to say that they have lost all freewill and are held against their will, although it says, 'whosoever WILL'.

They made the New Covenant amongst themselves; we who believe in the Work of Christ enter into the New Covenant by faith.

And that faith does not destroy us as beings having a choice, it does not hold us captive. Rewards are not given to captives, but to those who are free.

Its ratification (the Cross) resulting in the forgiveness of the sins of the world (1 Jn 2:2) and consequent gifts of righteousness and new life are all works outside of man. How exactly are you going to break that agreement made between God and Himself?

One breaks a contract by walking away from it. So many warnings in the New Covenant tell us that we should not 'cast away (throw away, abandon)' our assurance we have in the One who came to fulfill that Old Covenant. We are beings who freely choice to follow the One who said, 'Come and follow Me' to 'whosoever will believe'.

You can choose to not enter into the New Covenant by faith, but if you do choose to enter in by faith, once you enter in, the free gifts intrinsic to the Covenant KEEP you in (the righteousness of God and the seal of the Holy Spirit, Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5, and Eph. 1),

If this is true, then why doesn't everyone believe and then live as they want afterwards? If it was this simple, that once you are in you cannot be thrown out, then we cannot preach against a lascivious gospel or against those brothers who mix the Covenant of Law in with the Covenant of Grace. That is like saying that once your name is in the Book of Life, it cannot be erased, no matter what.

There are examples of people walking away even in the Old Covenant which had the promise of a Messiah, just as we have, even that promise was not good enough. But now that the fairness (righteousness) of God is shown in a new Covenant, we are liberated from walking pleasingly before Him? Now that we have the seal of the Holy Spirit, we are liberated to walk contrary to His beckoning? Nay, I say. We choose to either continue walking or we choose to not continue walking with Him. Hebrews has not said in vain, nor gave us the example of the Exodus, that if we endure, we shall enter into His Rest, into everlasting inheritance. Indeed, it is by our faithlessness that God will not permit us to enter, even as He did during that Exodus.

I would suppose that if one breaks that contract between God and him, that God, nevertheless, remained true to His part of that contract, but that human walked away from it, not enduring into the end.

and as a believer, you have a Perfect, Forever High Priest Who represents you in the heavenly tabernacle based on HIS WORK, not your works (Heb. 7-10).
-JGIG

As long as one endures into the end.

 

[SeaBass]

No, It does not.

In the OT yes, They had to follow the law. and the law required this. but we are not under the law now are we?

Naaman is a perfect example of God's grace being conditional upon man's obedience. This had nothing to do with OT law but God extending His grace making that grace conditional upon Naaman dipping 7 times.

The word grace means unconditional. Until you figure this out, you will never understand Gods truth.

Nothing in the definition of grace implies that it must always be unconditional. Certain man-made theologies as Calvinism imply grace must be unconditional. This is why there are those as "savdbygrace" that unbiblically try to have men saved BEFORE men even CONDITIONALLY believe.

again, it there is a condition, it is not free. thus it was never of grace.

If this were true, then Naaman dipping in the river 7 times means he earned his healing, grace had nothing to do with it.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Way to kick the hornet nest SeaBass. What you started here is nonproductive because you are not the judge. It's like telling a baby who just learned to walk to go do some hurdles. Here is where your arguments fail. Not all are at the same spot on our Christian walk. Faith in Christ and committing to Him is in fact all that is needed for salvation. However if you have indeed committed He will begin a work in you and the evidence of this is that the believer will take on the likeness of Christ and will do works. Jesus disciples His followers, nurturing them and preparing them for ministry, then He calls them minister. Don't beat the children of God SeaBass. I do agree that many are deceiving themselves and think they are going to be saved that aren't. Those people are most likely not seeking fellowship and edification on a Christian chat Site. That is just my opinion. I believe you are just wanting to be helpful but try not to discourage those who are less mature.

Who said anything about Judging?

Here is what he said :

In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.


Then upon becoming a Christian and remaining saved, the Christian MUST maintain an obedient faith, Rev 2:10, keeping Christ works Rev 2:26, continue walking in the light so all his sin can continually be cleansed, 1 Jn 1:7 and do good works that God pre-ordained Christians to wallk in, Eph 2:10, Matt 25:32ff

It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved. No verse says "do nothing" to become a Christian and "do nothing" to remain a faithful Christian.

A thought:

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If I had to go out and get a job to WORK in order to provide for those of my own house, else be a faithless infidel, does that secular WORK I am doing mean that I am trying to merit my salvation, ie, keep from being a lost, faithless infidel?

If eternal security were true, does that mean I do not have to work to provide for my house and can still be saved as a fatihless infidel?

So can anyone demonstrate how a man can never do ANY KIND of work his entire life yet still be saved?

(emphasis in font size, bold underline and color blue in the question are mine)

Now can you answer the question?

 

[cfultz3]

Hey bro,

You do understand the difference between conditional and non conditional covenants do you not?

Abraham had a non conditional covenant (along with Israel)

Moses covenant was conditional. (which is why it was weak, it depended on us)

the new covenant is greater than both. And it is non conditional. God said I WILL..

Hello Brother,

Are we free to live as we please in the contract we enter into with God under the Son? Ought we not to endure until the end in order to enter that promised inheritance?

I understand that there was nothing we did to bring about God's gracious act of offering salvation through faith. That He and He alone offers it out of His graciousness.

But then again, a Covenant has at least two parties who must keep their terms of that Contract for the Contract to remain valid. We know that without a doubt God will remain faithful to His part of that Covenant. And if we will remain faithful to that Contract until the end, then God will deliver what He has promised in return.

 

[SeaBass]

A person who does have faith is saved, And they WILL PRODUCE works.

Your statement here contradicts the teaching of faith only. Faith only says works are not essential, unnecessary to being saved. So if works are not essential, unnecessary to being saved, then why should faith produce something that is not essential, unnecessary to being saved?

 

[SeaBass]

My friend you don't know the word so let me educate you. Salvation by works is false teaching, that's what the Jehovah Witnesses believe works salvation. Its time for the children of God to stop believing all these false doctrines. Salvation is a free gift from God. We didn't do anything to earn it. Jesus willingly laid down his life for us. He shed his precious blood on the cross for all mankind. Galatians 3:13 says Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree) New King James Version Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the giftof God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast. New King James Version. No one isperfect. We've all sinned and made mistakes, bit my sins and mistakes are covered by the blood of Jesus. My past does not define who I am. Romans 6:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. New King James Version Romans 8:1-2 there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. Every believer must know the word of God. Take the time to read and study the bible.Jesus defeated Satan at Calvary. That's something he doesn't want you to know. Satan has been mad since God kicked him out of heaven. The next time the devil reminds you of your past remind him of his future. He's gonna burn in the lake of fire forever.

Believing, repenting of sins, confessing the name of Christ and submitting to baptism for remission of sins are all WORKS. So you are implying with a "do nothing" theology that an unbelieving, impenitent, denier of Christ, in his unforgiven sins is saved.

EPh 2:9 Paul was excluding works of merit not obedient works of believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism. Many create a contradiction between Eph 2:9 and Rom 6:16-18 where Paul teaches "obedience unto righteousness" and that obeying from the heart comes BEFORE justification/freed from sin.