Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[cfultz3]

Bro. You went to the well known sins again.

I did not ask about them, I am talking of the sin of omission. The sin of pride, The sin of laziness, the sins that we may not even be aware we are committing, or do not know how much we do them, these and other sins.

Yes, they are the unknown sins. Somewhere someone said that those 'unknown' sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

Which was my point. Again, If you stood in front of Christ today in all his glory, And realized all your weak habitual sin you do on a daily basis, would you not come unglued?? As the many people who did have this happen to them did?

when we start thinking we are ok because we do not STRUGGLE with the popular sins, We are in deep deep trouble. and will be like the pharisees, will we not?

I understand what you are saying and agree with you to the till concerning unknown sins.

So we come to 'willful' habitual sinning. That sort of sin where one casts aside (throw aside) there assurance and walk in willful habitual sin (ignoring the Spirit in His conviction and willfully continuing to walk away and remaining in that sin being convicted of).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, they are the unknown sins. Somewhere someone said that those 'unknown' sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

Well some are unknown. Some are known. Again, Paul spoke of them in romans 7. Paul was not going around stealing, lying, cheating, committing sexual sin, murdering he spoke of the sins we all struggle with and habitually do on a daily basis.

I understand what you are saying and agree with you to the till concerning unknown sins.

Again, I am not talking about unknown sin.

So we come to 'willful' habitual sinning. That sort of sin where one casts aside (throw aside) there assurance and walk in willful habitual sin (ignoring the Spirit in His conviction and willfully continuing to walk away and remaining in that sin being convicted of).

so your telling me you do not willfully habitually chose to serve self on a regular basis at any given time during the day? And that this does not offend God as much as the person willfully habitually struggling with sexual sin?

My point is we ALL have struggles and habitual sin in our lives. we should not judge ourselves better than others who struggle with sins just because we deem them mor evil sin. It is the persons heart God looks at. not the sin, He paid for the sin.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes, they are the unknown sins. Somewhere someone said that those 'unknown' sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

 

[SeaBass]

Don't get what? That I refuse to trust in myself to save myself??

...sigh... it appears strawman arguments are all the fatih only proponents have left.

 

[SeaBass]

Not free, but already paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Since Christ died for every man, Heb 2:9, will every man be unconditionally saved?

 

[newbirth]

God has made it so simple for us , yet we entangle ourselves in things that bring divisions. We were saved by faith and we will continually be saved by faith,"I thank God for that". Our faith is being counted as righteousness that is why we can stand before the throne of Grace. Now the faith we have in God produces the good works in us through the urging of the spirit. "We are led by the Spirit" I hope no one depends on the works they perform to aid in their salvation.
[h=3]Philippians 2[/h]King James Version (KJV)

2 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[SeaBass]

This verse clearly give the answer

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

1)
belief is a work itself, Jn 6:27-29.

Also Jn 3:16 does NOT say "he that believeth ONLY" for the following reasons:


2)
in Jn 3:16 Jesus tied believing to not perishing/salvation. In Lk 13:3,5 Jesus tied repentance to not perishing/salvation. Since there is just one way to be saved, then that can only mean that a saving belief must includes repentance. In other words, all the dead belief only in the world can never save an impenitent person. James says the devils believe and tremble but their dead beief only will not save them for they will not repent.

3)
in Mt 10:32,33 Jesus said one must confess Him in order to be saved. Jess denies those that deny Him. Again, that means the belief of Jn 3:16 not only includes repentance but must include confession. Jn 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:" Like the devils that believe James speaks about, the chief rulers believed but their dead belief only will not save them for they will not confess.

4)
Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common;"

In verse 41 those that believed accepted Peter's message and were baptized. Conversely those that rejected Peter's gospel message rejected being baptized.

So which ones are the ones that are said to have "believed" in v44? The ones that accepted Peter's messge and were baptized or the ones that rejected Peter's message and rejected baptism?


Obviously the ones that "believed" in v44 are the ones that were baptized in verse 41. So in Acts 2:44 we have the word "believed" used as a synecdoche were "believed" INCLUDES baptism. The language of Acts 2:41 also implies that one does not accept the gospel message until he is baptized, conversely one is rejecting the gospel message when he is not baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

Jh. 3:16 as written is very confusing. "should be saved" that is doubtful . The verb show the possibility of salvation but not a certainty. The doubt is because many believers are not saved because God did not give then the new birth. verses 3,5 and 21 says that no one can repent of sin and do good deeds without the new birth. 3:36 says obedience is necessary for salvation. verses 18-20 says natural men hate God and will not come to Jesus, so the only one who will trust and obey Jesus are the ones born of God. The key to understanding verse 16 is 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." Therefore there is no salvation with out faith in Jesus and good works that come by the new birth of the Spirit. The message of Heb. chs. 3&4 is that the first gen. of Israel was lost. They did not believe and they did not obey. Love to all, Hoffco

The KJV, among other versions, have it right..."should not perish." The verb should is in the the subjunctive mood.

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. > from BlueLetterBible.com
​

The verb "believeth is present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action as opposed to a one time or sproadic action.

So the implication of the verse is that one persishing or not perishing depends upon the circumstance if he maintains an ongoing sustained belief. If he does quit belieivng he should perish, but if he continues to be believe (be faithful unto death Rev 2:10) then he should not perish.


The corrupt NIV ignored the subjunctive mood (as it does in other places) and inserted an indicative mood, a statement of fact..."SHALL not perish" which implies the impossibility of one perishing EVEN IF HE QUITS BELIEVING.

 

[newbirth]

This is scary stuff my friend....what does faith mean to you? If you trust and hope in God you will obey his Son... and he will raise you up on the last day.So your faith is indicated by your works...the faith saves but the good works show that you have that faith. So if there is no good works then I must conclude you have no faith and if you have no faith then you are not saved. I pray that God opens our understanding that we may see his glourious light.

 

[SeaBass]

you do not get it

if there are conditions.. IT IS NOT FREE..

The conditions are the PAYMENT



not free..

end of story.

Simply wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was Naaman healed by grace OR did he earn his cleansing by going a dipping 7 times in the river?

According to your theology it has to be one or the other, mutually exclusive.

 

[SeaBass]

Now the faith we have in God produces the good works in us through the urging of the spirit.

Can a Christian NOT do these good works you posted about above yet still be saved anyway?

 

[SeaBass]

This is scary stuff my friend....what does faith mean to you? If you trust and hope in God you will obey his Son... and he will raise you up on the last day.So your faith is indicated by your works...the faith saves but the good works show that you have that faith. So if there is no good works then I must conclude you have no faith and if you have no faith then you are not saved. I pray that God opens our understanding that we may see his glourious light.

There are those posting in this very thread that say if you obey God's Son you are trying to earn your salvation.



You posted "So your faith is indicated by your works...the faith saves but the good works show that you have that faith. So if there is no good works then I must conclude you have no faith"

So you are saying one MUST have works to prove he has faith. Therefore no works = no faith which can only mean no works = no salvation.

 

[newbirth]

I am a bit confused by this statement , Not free, but already paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Simply wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was Naaman healed by grace OR did he earn his cleansing by going a dipping 7 times in the river?

According to your theology it has to be one or the other, mutually exclusive.

1. that is an old testament passage. The actually healing of Christ had not yet been seen

2. Did the blind men work to see, the lame work to walk. or did Jesus just heal them??

3. What did Lazarus do to be risen from the dead? Did he do work in the grave?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am a bit confused by this statement , Not free, but already paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

It means it is free to those who recieve it, But it was not free. Jesus paid the price with the cross. That is called redemption.

 

[Alligator]

1. that is an old testament passage. The actually healing of Christ had not yet been seen

2. Did the blind men work to see, the lame work to walk. or did Jesus just heal them??

3. What did Lazarus do to be risen from the dead? Did he do work in the grave?

it doesn't matter if it was Old Testament or New Testament, the principle is still the same. The point is man has to do something in order to receive that Grace. Do you seriously think that Naaman would've been healed had he refused to dip in the River Jordan?

 

[Elin]

I addressed all of this in another thread:

No, all you did was regurgitate your apologetic manual's assertions with no demonstration of anything.

You post "Please explain the difference between works of merit which do not save,
and works of obedience which do save.
Please give examples of each."

Your issue is that you do not know the difference between these two works. All works are not alike and Rom 10:3 differentiates betweens these two works showing works of merit do not saved and submitting to God's commandments does save.

You did not answer either request, just more regurgitation of your apologetic manual.

You don't have a clue.

 

[SeaBass]

I am a bit confused by this statement , Not free, but already paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Free gifts can and do come with conditions. Meeting those conditions do not earn the free gift but are a part of receiving the free gift.


An example I used earlier in this thread, I can go out and buy a car. Out of my good grace I can give you that car I bought and paid for. Yet to get this free car that has already been paid for you must do the work of coming to my office and get the title and keys then do the work of going to the car dealer to get the car.

You have two choices:

1) say no thanks and you will not get the car.

2) say 'yes' I desire that free car. In that case you must meet the condtions I put on this free car in coming to get the title, keys and car.


Does this work you do in coming to my office to get the keys and title and going to the car dealer mean you EARNED that free car that I PAID for and GAVE to you for FREE? In no way. This is a simple concept that faith ony advocates refuse to understand.

Also, you do NOT have the option to make demands upon me the gift giver. As the gift giver I have the right to put certain conditions upon my free gift to you. You CANNOT make demands on me the gift giver to bring you the title, keys and car while you just sit and do nothing. You sitting and doing nothing was NOT a condition I put the free car.

The theology of faith ony tries to make God, the Gift-Giver change the conditions He has put on salvation, those conditions being believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized. They want the free gift of savlation WITHOUT having to do the works of belieivng, repenting of sins, confessing Christ or submitting to baptism. So rejecting the condtions is the same as rejecting the free gift. You cannot tell me you want the free car but do not want to do the works in coming to my office or going to the car dealer.

Again, you have no right to make demands on the gift giver that he has to change the conditions upon receiving HIS free gift in order to meet YOUR conditions.

 

[SeaBass]

No, all you did was regurgitate your apologetic manual's assertions with no demonstration of anything.


You did not answer either request, just more regurgitation of your apologetic manual.

You don't have a clue.

I showed you those two different works in Rom 10:3. But I cannot make you understand what you do not want to understand.

 

[SeaBass]

1. that is an old testament passage. The actually healing of Christ had not yet been seen

2. Did the blind men work to see, the lame work to walk. or did Jesus just heal them??

3. What did Lazarus do to be risen from the dead? Did he do work in the grave?

It is a passage that proves God's grace can have conditions and meeting those condtions in no way earns anything, so you did not answer the question.


God's grace can be unconditional in the sense that by God's grace people have air to breathe, water to drink, food to eat. Dead men were raised unconditionally by God's grace. Yet I gave you a clear cut case with Naaman that proves God's grace can be conditional and I can give other bible cases where God's grace was conditional. But when it comes to our savlation, God's grace is ALWAYS conditional upon an obedient faith. If God's grace is UNconditional, then why is it that all men, every man will NOT be saved, 1 Tim 2:4; Heb 2:9; Titus 2:11?