Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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I thought I was quite clear that all mankind was saved from Grace. The context is about mankind, vs 5, Paul then transitions to believers and says the same thing but adds through faith. The Gift of salvation, which makes it past tense is the Gift of salvation Christ bestows upon the world. Rom 5:12 is talking about the Gift. Rom 5:18 tells you what the Gift is, LIFE to all men. Christ saved the world from the bondage to death and sin. Heb 2:14 states the very same thing.
However, for any believer, it is never past tense. Upon belief, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit, it is about being saved. We may possess salvation, but we do not inherit it until the end. It is the end that will determine IF you have been faithful.
By the way the text actually says, THROUGH FAITH. We are justified BY faith, but saved THROUGH FAITH.
However, for any believer, it is never past tense. Upon belief, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit, it is about being saved. We may possess salvation, but we do not inherit it until the end. It is the end that will determine IF you have been faithful.
By the way the text actually says, THROUGH FAITH. We are justified BY faith, but saved THROUGH FAITH.
E
lol.. Well this is not true.. Not all mankind is saved. This is not found in scripture. or anyplace else.
Actually the first few chapters of ephesians speaks of what God has done for us induvidually. Yes sometimes paul speaks in plural, He is talking to a bunch of believers.
Again not true. God offers the gift to the world. But he did not save the world.
Again wrong, In Adam all have died, But the gift was given to many not all
You must have the wrong verse, it says nothing of the sort.
The greek word is dia. the word means through (the means of) , or because of.
It says we have been saved.
Titus 3 5 says the same
We have been saved,
again, Your playing mr twisty
obviously you do not understand scripture. Man has a problem, called death. Due to Adam man was condemned to death, Gen 3:19. confirmed in Rom 5:12. also confirmed in Heb 2:14-17. It explains why Christ needed to be Incarnated.
What was His purpose. Heb 2:14 says to defeat the power of Satan, death. By that Incarnation and Resurrection Christ gave life to all men, actually the world. John 4:42. I already gave you the texts that state very clearly that Christ gave life to all men. Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:12-22, Christ was reconciling the world back to God.
So, yes, Christ overcame the fall for man. All men, the world was saved from death and sin. This is the gift of salvation given to the world.
What was the purpose of Life, an eternal existence?
God created man to be eternal and in union with Him. Once death is defeated, an again has an eternal existence, God can call all men to repentance.
It is each man, each individual that must give an answer to God's call. By faith we beleive and respond and when we repent, are baptised, enter into His Church, then our personal salvation begins.
Seems you missed the whole gift of salvation and went right to the individual person being saved by and through faith.
Kinda purposeless theology when man remains dead and will simply die and return to dust.
granted he is speaking TO believers, but he is speaking about them as human beings whom Christ saved from death and sin. By grace are ye saved. Because they were saved, not of themselves, all of Christ, they can now be saved through faith as well. It is all a gift, but we need to use the gifts given to us.
Which makes Him quite worthless. He didn't do anything if He did not save the world. John 4:42, I John 4:14 says otherwise. So do all the above texts I cited regarding Christ reconciling the world. If He did not there can be no resurrection. Read very carefully the preface to I Cor 15:22. vs 12-21. If the dead are not raised, given life, then Christ is not raised. Vs 17 states that our faith would be in vain, if Christ did not rise from the dead, thus giving life to all men, so that all men might be able to respond to God in this life and IF they desire to be united with Him, they can live with Him in eternity.
Have you heard of the New Heaven and New Earth? Not possible unless Christ redeemed this world from the grip and power of Satan through death Heb 2:14.
You seem to have overlooked the most important aspect of our salvation, the work Christ did for us.
so we need to change the text to fit some imposed supposition. I Cor 15:22 is an equation. If all died through Adam, then all shall be made alive through Christ. He assumed our fallen mortal nature so that He could raise it and give it life again.
Yes, I just explained to you how every single human being has been saved from death and sin. Christ freed mankind/the world from the bondage to death and sin. Very straight forward.
Titus 3:5 gives you three steps in our salvation. First, we are saved, (saved by Christ's death and resurrection- not by our works), we are washed, baptism enters one INTO Christ (John 3:5, Rom 6:3-4) and received the Holy Spirit. When we enter Christ, we take possession of our salvation, but it is conditional. It is conditional on our keeping the faith. We cannot become faithless or unfaithful.
What was His purpose. Heb 2:14 says to defeat the power of Satan, death. By that Incarnation and Resurrection Christ gave life to all men, actually the world. John 4:42. I already gave you the texts that state very clearly that Christ gave life to all men. Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:12-22, Christ was reconciling the world back to God.
So, yes, Christ overcame the fall for man. All men, the world was saved from death and sin. This is the gift of salvation given to the world.
What was the purpose of Life, an eternal existence?
God created man to be eternal and in union with Him. Once death is defeated, an again has an eternal existence, God can call all men to repentance.
It is each man, each individual that must give an answer to God's call. By faith we beleive and respond and when we repent, are baptised, enter into His Church, then our personal salvation begins.
Seems you missed the whole gift of salvation and went right to the individual person being saved by and through faith.
Kinda purposeless theology when man remains dead and will simply die and return to dust.
granted he is speaking TO believers, but he is speaking about them as human beings whom Christ saved from death and sin. By grace are ye saved. Because they were saved, not of themselves, all of Christ, they can now be saved through faith as well. It is all a gift, but we need to use the gifts given to us.
Which makes Him quite worthless. He didn't do anything if He did not save the world. John 4:42, I John 4:14 says otherwise. So do all the above texts I cited regarding Christ reconciling the world. If He did not there can be no resurrection. Read very carefully the preface to I Cor 15:22. vs 12-21. If the dead are not raised, given life, then Christ is not raised. Vs 17 states that our faith would be in vain, if Christ did not rise from the dead, thus giving life to all men, so that all men might be able to respond to God in this life and IF they desire to be united with Him, they can live with Him in eternity.
Have you heard of the New Heaven and New Earth? Not possible unless Christ redeemed this world from the grip and power of Satan through death Heb 2:14.
You seem to have overlooked the most important aspect of our salvation, the work Christ did for us.
so we need to change the text to fit some imposed supposition. I Cor 15:22 is an equation. If all died through Adam, then all shall be made alive through Christ. He assumed our fallen mortal nature so that He could raise it and give it life again.
Yes, I just explained to you how every single human being has been saved from death and sin. Christ freed mankind/the world from the bondage to death and sin. Very straight forward.
Titus 3:5 gives you three steps in our salvation. First, we are saved, (saved by Christ's death and resurrection- not by our works), we are washed, baptism enters one INTO Christ (John 3:5, Rom 6:3-4) and received the Holy Spirit. When we enter Christ, we take possession of our salvation, but it is conditional. It is conditional on our keeping the faith. We cannot become faithless or unfaithful.
The one wedding guest was not wearing appropriate clothing for the wedding, thus he was cast out, bound, into the outer darkness where there is weeping and grinding of teeth.
Being called by Yeshua, we are invited to the great wedding feast, however if we do not prepare our garments for such, we will also be treated as the guest who had no wedding garment.
Garments are the works of the saints. Are you preparing yours?
Being called by Yeshua, we are invited to the great wedding feast, however if we do not prepare our garments for such, we will also be treated as the guest who had no wedding garment.
Garments are the works of the saints. Are you preparing yours?
E
Obviously you continue to be mr twisty.
Yes, He paid the debt for all men, But all men will not be saved, nor have they ever been saved, they continue to be dead until they are born again, Made alive in Christ, Justified. etc etc.
This is done ONLY by trusting God.
It is a HUGE difference saying all men HAVE been saved. And saying all men have been given the ABILITY to be saved.
Seems like your still stuck in a form of Judaism, trying to earn your salvation, and refusing to admit you can never do enough work to earn anything, Your still dead in your sin, and will be until you stop trusting self and your works and start trusting God and HIS WORK.
ok there is no hell. And everyone will be in heaven, No matter if they trust God or not. Thanks, I did not know this
Wrong.
It says we are saved,
The washing and the new birth are the reason we are saved,
The HS is the one who did the work.
You can not take this verse any other way without being mr twisty, and taking the words out of context, out of place, and changing the meaning of those words.
sorry
You also seem to read with blinders. I have never stated all men are SAVED. I stated that all men have bee saved from death and sin. Christ reversed the fall, the condemnation of death, Gen 3:19.
The freeing man from the bondage to death and sin IS the salvation scripture is speaking about as the Gift given to all men. It is the "being saved by grace". It is all of Christ, and man has nothing to do with the Work of Christ.
Christ saved man from death and sin so that man could be reunited with Christ. You are bypassing the whole act of salvation, the Incarnation, the Resurrection of Christ with our human natures. Just what are you being saved from in your view?
I seem to be the one trusting in HIS work. He saved me from death which I could not do. You have a theology that bypasses Christ completely, and move to its purpose which becomes null and void, if Christ actually has not be resurrected and given life to the world.
You seem to be very confused over works, grace, and faith as well. Probably because you dismiss or ignore the work of Christ for us which we could never do anyway.
Actually with your view in bypassing the Incarnation and effect of the Resurrection there can be neither, hell or heaven. We are still all condemned to death, dust to dust, because of the condemnation through Adam. Christ accomplished nothing.
the washing part and receiving the Holy Spirit is of God, everything is of God, but these two things do not happen without a person believeing, repentance first. God does not just arbitrarily save someone. We are not saved, past tense, finitely. We take possession of our salvation, but it is all up to us to make sure we remain faithful. We are not going to be saved if we lose faith. The statement is that IF one believes one shall have eternal life. Not if one later disbelieves will one have eternal life. The word "believes" is always in the present tense, active and continuing. There is no such thing as a saved believer, until death unless one is faithful. It is the faithful that inherit the promise.
Other than misunderstanding scripture and what I explained you have not addressed either. You just made some assertions that were actually irrelevant to what I stated and scripture explains quite clearly.
The freeing man from the bondage to death and sin IS the salvation scripture is speaking about as the Gift given to all men. It is the "being saved by grace". It is all of Christ, and man has nothing to do with the Work of Christ.
Christ saved man from death and sin so that man could be reunited with Christ. You are bypassing the whole act of salvation, the Incarnation, the Resurrection of Christ with our human natures. Just what are you being saved from in your view?
I seem to be the one trusting in HIS work. He saved me from death which I could not do. You have a theology that bypasses Christ completely, and move to its purpose which becomes null and void, if Christ actually has not be resurrected and given life to the world.
You seem to be very confused over works, grace, and faith as well. Probably because you dismiss or ignore the work of Christ for us which we could never do anyway.
Actually with your view in bypassing the Incarnation and effect of the Resurrection there can be neither, hell or heaven. We are still all condemned to death, dust to dust, because of the condemnation through Adam. Christ accomplished nothing.
the washing part and receiving the Holy Spirit is of God, everything is of God, but these two things do not happen without a person believeing, repentance first. God does not just arbitrarily save someone. We are not saved, past tense, finitely. We take possession of our salvation, but it is all up to us to make sure we remain faithful. We are not going to be saved if we lose faith. The statement is that IF one believes one shall have eternal life. Not if one later disbelieves will one have eternal life. The word "believes" is always in the present tense, active and continuing. There is no such thing as a saved believer, until death unless one is faithful. It is the faithful that inherit the promise.
Other than misunderstanding scripture and what I explained you have not addressed either. You just made some assertions that were actually irrelevant to what I stated and scripture explains quite clearly.
What must we do to be saved. Believe that Yeshua, Jesus Christ, is the Son of God. If we believe, truly, this is works, and it produces more works. Do not be fooled. It is not only good to obey the commandments of God, our Lord tells us to teach them as valid, and they are. That is unless someone out there has risen to the position of editing what is written in the Word.
No one who believes Yeshua will do nothing; it is impossible not to show eternal gratitude by doing the works of saints. Again, do not be fooled. Works is not only being like the Twelve Apostles, it can be something as simple as waiting on the Lord, but while you are waiting do not look for excuses to sin, and we know where sin finds its power, so don't deliberately break the commandments. Our Salvation does not like that at all. Actually, obedience should be our new nature, so what's the beef about obeying the Tne Commandments?
No one who believes Yeshua will do nothing; it is impossible not to show eternal gratitude by doing the works of saints. Again, do not be fooled. Works is not only being like the Twelve Apostles, it can be something as simple as waiting on the Lord, but while you are waiting do not look for excuses to sin, and we know where sin finds its power, so don't deliberately break the commandments. Our Salvation does not like that at all. Actually, obedience should be our new nature, so what's the beef about obeying the Tne Commandments?
Peter's listeners in Acts 2 were spiritually dead/lost but they were able to hear and understand Peter's gospel message and asked what they must do. Same with the jailer in Acts 16. The eunuch was spiritually dead and lost but he was able and willing to read the scriptures, had a desire to study with Phillip to find out about Jesus and then asked Phillip what hindered him to obey the gospel by being baptized.
Spiritually dead, lost people can do much.
1 Jn 3:17 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous"
Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"
The bible says righeousness is something one does. It is a work one does in order to be righteous/accepted with God. So your argument is not with me, but with the bible. As in Rom 10:3, righteousness is something one submits to/obeys.
Again, EPh 2:9 "not of works" refers to works of merit. If you could work to earn your salvation that is something to boast about. Yet obedient works do NOT earn salvation..."So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Lk 17:10 So even after one obeys God's commands, which is do his duty, he is still an unprofitable servant in need of grace. Why? Because one's obedience is not perfect leaving a gap between God and man and grace is needed to cover that gap.
NOT working righteousnes, not doing righteousness means one is DERELICT in his DUTY to obey God's commands/righteousness and will not receive grace.
Rom 10:3 shows two different works:
1) going about to establish their own righteousness
The Jews were lost for they would not obey Christ's NT gospel, Rom 10:16. Instead they thought they could merit savlation by doing thier OWN righteosness. Jews would sometimes replace God's law with thier own traditions and think they could be sved by keeping thier own traditions.
2) have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
The Jews were lost for they "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" This means the Jews were lost for they would not "obey the gospel" by believing, confessing, calling upon the name of the Lord, Rom 10:9,10,13,16..."But they have not all obeyed the gospel"
Your holding to that false man-made teachings will not allow you to understand the simplicty of Rom 10:3 and that is truly a shame. Hopefully others will see it.
1 Thess 1:3 says "WORK OF FAITH". Faith describes the work being done. You reject this verse and try to change it, so I cannot help you anymore here.
Mk 2:5 Jesus SAW THEIR FAITH. What Jesus saw is the men doing WORK in removing the roof and lowering a sick man down to Him and this work is clearly called FAITH. If you still object to work being called faith, then what does faith look like that Jesus saw? What color is faith? What shape is faith? What size is faith? What texture does faith have which Jesus saw?
Repentance is work and one cannot biblically repent without works..."But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." Acts 26:20 no works = no repentance.
Jesus speaking to the Pharisees said "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Mt 21:41
Nineveh repented. Looking at Jonh 3 the king of Nineveh lead to city to repent in sackcloth and ashes and verse 10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not"
Get that? Repentance was a WORK that God saw just like faith was a work Jesus saw in Mk 2:5.
You have not/cannot show a single verse where Paul said faith only justifies. I will show you this again, you will most likely reject it again.
Look at the ORDER OF EVENTS in Rom 6:17,18:
First, they were servants of sin.
Secondly, they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
Thirdly, then they were freed from sin/justified.
The order of events has OBEDIENCE BEFORE justification. That is why Paul says in verse 16 "obedience UNTO righteousness". You are simply trying to wrest scripture and change the order of events.
Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"
The bible says righeousness is something one does. It is a work one does in order to be righteous/accepted with God. So your argument is not with me, but with the bible. As in Rom 10:3, righteousness is something one submits to/obeys.
Again, EPh 2:9 "not of works" refers to works of merit. If you could work to earn your salvation that is something to boast about. Yet obedient works do NOT earn salvation..."So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Lk 17:10 So even after one obeys God's commands, which is do his duty, he is still an unprofitable servant in need of grace. Why? Because one's obedience is not perfect leaving a gap between God and man and grace is needed to cover that gap.
NOT working righteousnes, not doing righteousness means one is DERELICT in his DUTY to obey God's commands/righteousness and will not receive grace.
Rom 10:3 shows two different works:
1) going about to establish their own righteousness
The Jews were lost for they would not obey Christ's NT gospel, Rom 10:16. Instead they thought they could merit savlation by doing thier OWN righteosness. Jews would sometimes replace God's law with thier own traditions and think they could be sved by keeping thier own traditions.
2) have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
The Jews were lost for they "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" This means the Jews were lost for they would not "obey the gospel" by believing, confessing, calling upon the name of the Lord, Rom 10:9,10,13,16..."But they have not all obeyed the gospel"
Your holding to that false man-made teachings will not allow you to understand the simplicty of Rom 10:3 and that is truly a shame. Hopefully others will see it.
1 Thess 1:3 says "WORK OF FAITH". Faith describes the work being done. You reject this verse and try to change it, so I cannot help you anymore here.
Mk 2:5 Jesus SAW THEIR FAITH. What Jesus saw is the men doing WORK in removing the roof and lowering a sick man down to Him and this work is clearly called FAITH. If you still object to work being called faith, then what does faith look like that Jesus saw? What color is faith? What shape is faith? What size is faith? What texture does faith have which Jesus saw?
Repentance is work and one cannot biblically repent without works..."But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." Acts 26:20 no works = no repentance.
Jesus speaking to the Pharisees said "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Mt 21:41
Nineveh repented. Looking at Jonh 3 the king of Nineveh lead to city to repent in sackcloth and ashes and verse 10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not"
Get that? Repentance was a WORK that God saw just like faith was a work Jesus saw in Mk 2:5.
You have not/cannot show a single verse where Paul said faith only justifies. I will show you this again, you will most likely reject it again.
Look at the ORDER OF EVENTS in Rom 6:17,18:
First, they were servants of sin.
Secondly, they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
Thirdly, then they were freed from sin/justified.
The order of events has OBEDIENCE BEFORE justification. That is why Paul says in verse 16 "obedience UNTO righteousness". You are simply trying to wrest scripture and change the order of events.
So you are proving that false strawman arguments are all you have.
Again, show the post where I said I could save myself by myself.
You continue to do, what they all in football, an end-around. YOu keep trying to "run around" the works of believing, repenting, confessing and sbumitting to baptism that God has given to YOU to do, and try to put those works on God to do for you to avoid the fact you have obedient works to do to be saved.
God does not do those works for you. God does not have to believe in himself to be saved, God has no sins to repent of, God does not have to confess himself. God does not have to submit to baptism for remission of sins when He has no sins. No, these are all works God has given to YOU to obey.
Looking at your "end around" play, what if God did not do the works of believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism for me? I would be lost being an unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ in my unforgiven sins. And it would be 100% ALL GOD'S fault and blame that I am lost for HIS FAILURE to do these works for me. Your idea here reeks of Calvinism.
Again, show the post where I said I could save myself by myself.
You continue to do, what they all in football, an end-around. YOu keep trying to "run around" the works of believing, repenting, confessing and sbumitting to baptism that God has given to YOU to do, and try to put those works on God to do for you to avoid the fact you have obedient works to do to be saved.
God does not do those works for you. God does not have to believe in himself to be saved, God has no sins to repent of, God does not have to confess himself. God does not have to submit to baptism for remission of sins when He has no sins. No, these are all works God has given to YOU to obey.
Looking at your "end around" play, what if God did not do the works of believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism for me? I would be lost being an unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ in my unforgiven sins. And it would be 100% ALL GOD'S fault and blame that I am lost for HIS FAILURE to do these works for me. Your idea here reeks of Calvinism.
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They cannot save themselves. God does save every soul that comes to Christ and asks to be saved.
Romans 3 teaches us that all men are sinners in Gods eyes. God calls all men to be saved according to John 3:19-20 some come and some turn back. God is not willing that any should perish but some refuse to submit themselves to Gods will. They refuse Gods righteousness and seek their own righteousness which is not righteousness but evil in the sight of God.
Why do you resist God? I think of poor King Agrippa when he responded to Paul with "almost thou persuadest me". How sad that God sent Light into the world and men prefer darkness. There is no excuse before God. His Son is knowable.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Why do you resist God? I think of poor King Agrippa when he responded to Paul with "almost thou persuadest me". How sad that God sent Light into the world and men prefer darkness. There is no excuse before God. His Son is knowable.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Acts 2,8,16 are not folly but prove lost "dead men" can do something. Why would Peter command his listeners in Acts 2 to repent and be baptized if Peter knew there was no possible way for them to obey that command? The command itself implies ability and responsibility upon those lost people to choose to obey that command...which some chose to do.
You also post "Men can do nothing of Spiritual merit apart from Gods Spirit moving and giving Light that they might turn from darkness to His marvelous Light."
If this were true, then all those lost will be all 100% God's fault and blame for not "moving" His Spirit upon them. This reeks of Calvinism.
You also post "Men can do nothing of Spiritual merit apart from Gods Spirit moving and giving Light that they might turn from darkness to His marvelous Light."
If this were true, then all those lost will be all 100% God's fault and blame for not "moving" His Spirit upon them. This reeks of Calvinism.