So if you are not under the Law, does that mean you are in lawelessness?
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B
Jason, the publican was not 'more justified', but went home 'justified' rather than the other. The other was not justified, though he claimed and exalted himself to be not as other sinners, such as this publican.
Matt 21:28-32
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Matt 21:28-32
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
I see what Jason is trying to say. No offense Jason, but the way you say things can seem to us like you are saying something totally different. When Jason explains what he means, it sounds like you two agree.
Jason, are you saying that God made Lucifer beautiful, but it is not His fault that Lucifer acted on this? It was the pride Satan formed that caused this?
dcon, I think you two agree, just the way you two speak causes the view that the other is wrong. Wording is very important, and I will be the first to admit that my wording has problems in people understanding what I am trying to say.
Paul was preaching the gospel at no charge or cost to others. He continued to do so as a way of undercutting those who appeared to be the ministers of righteousness who would seek to boast that their work was like his. He preached at no cost because he loved the brethren. (2 Corinthians 11).
Yet, Paul never condoned a person to think they could never stop sinning, though. On the contrary in the next chapter if you were to keep reading in 2 Corinthians 12, Paul says he will correct many if he returns and finds that they have not repented of their sins,
For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and thatI shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).
For Paul says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? " (2 Corithians 13:5).
For we know Paul would never criticize anyone for confessing and forsaking their sin. For Paul says,
"Now I pray to God that ye do no evil;" (2 Corinthians 13:7).
Yet, Paul never condoned a person to think they could never stop sinning, though. On the contrary in the next chapter if you were to keep reading in 2 Corinthians 12, Paul says he will correct many if he returns and finds that they have not repented of their sins,
For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and thatI shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).
For Paul says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? " (2 Corithians 13:5).
For we know Paul would never criticize anyone for confessing and forsaking their sin. For Paul says,
"Now I pray to God that ye do no evil;" (2 Corinthians 13:7).
Yes, it was Satan's pride in his beauty is where he went wrong. God did not make the devil fall. It was the devil's own pride that led to his fall.
I focused before on the point of beauty because Bowhunter was saying "Corruption is a beautiful thing" as if it was in reference to the devil. I pointed out that a mountain can be beautiful but that does not mean it is a corrupted thing just because it is beautiful. The devil fell because of his pride in his beauty and not just because he was beautiful. So his statement was not exactly true.
I focused before on the point of beauty because Bowhunter was saying "Corruption is a beautiful thing" as if it was in reference to the devil. I pointed out that a mountain can be beautiful but that does not mean it is a corrupted thing just because it is beautiful. The devil fell because of his pride in his beauty and not just because he was beautiful. So his statement was not exactly true.
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a soldier of ten years doesn't have as much experience as a soldier of twenty years, who doesn't have as much experience as a soldier of thirty years, who doesn't have as much experience as a soldier of forty years....
and each year the soldier's abilities, thoughts, ideas, perceptions and focus may change (for the better or for the worse too ).....
a soldier trained and experienced in righteousness
(willingly and joyously in christ jesus,
trained by yahweh like king david and like paul and like peter and
like the other apostles and disciples and ekklesia)
doesn't live like a soldier untrained
and
doesn't entangle himself in the things and activities of worldliness, carnality, hypocrisy, or any sin that so
easily trips men up.
---------------------------------
carnal men,
worldly men,
unsaved men,
do not live like those trained by yahweh and living experientially in union in christ jesus.
and each year the soldier's abilities, thoughts, ideas, perceptions and focus may change (for the better or for the worse too ).....
a soldier trained and experienced in righteousness
(willingly and joyously in christ jesus,
trained by yahweh like king david and like paul and like peter and
like the other apostles and disciples and ekklesia)
doesn't live like a soldier untrained
and
doesn't entangle himself in the things and activities of worldliness, carnality, hypocrisy, or any sin that so
easily trips men up.
---------------------------------
carnal men,
worldly men,
unsaved men,
do not live like those trained by yahweh and living experientially in union in christ jesus.
I never said the Pharisee was justified at all. You see, many today in the church are exactly like the Pharisee in this Parable because they think they do not have to humble themselves before God and repent of their sin like the Tax Collector. For Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees in the fact they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like justice, love, and mercy. Many in the church today also think they are better than other people and do not show love towards others just like the Pharisee did with the Tax Collector, too.
P
Jason, good morning 
. I don't think you have children. I think it might be easier for a parent to understand the yearning nature of our Father's love. It is a love that seeks to take the pain upon oneself, to protect, a love that is merciful and unending. God does not glory in punishing, He wants to forgive. Look at the price He paid-Jesus.
There is a difference is how a person treats thier child as opposed to how they treat other people. Let's say you are teaching your child to write, you don't cut thier fingers off when they form the letters incorrectly, you CERTAINLY don't tell them they are not your children. What you do is start the lesson over and as many times as is neccessary. Why? because you love them.
Our love as parents is a mere shadow of what God's love for us is. Do you think our Heavenly Father has lessd love for us than an earthly parent has for thier child? You are precious to Him and although you think He cuts you off-He doesn't because Jesus satisfied the judgement that was due you.
. I don't think you have children. I think it might be easier for a parent to understand the yearning nature of our Father's love. It is a love that seeks to take the pain upon oneself, to protect, a love that is merciful and unending. God does not glory in punishing, He wants to forgive. Look at the price He paid-Jesus.There is a difference is how a person treats thier child as opposed to how they treat other people. Let's say you are teaching your child to write, you don't cut thier fingers off when they form the letters incorrectly, you CERTAINLY don't tell them they are not your children. What you do is start the lesson over and as many times as is neccessary. Why? because you love them.
Our love as parents is a mere shadow of what God's love for us is. Do you think our Heavenly Father has lessd love for us than an earthly parent has for thier child? You are precious to Him and although you think He cuts you off-He doesn't because Jesus satisfied the judgement that was due you.
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Also, in Matthew 21:28-32, the publicans and harlots went into the kingdom before the Pharisees and chief priests (who heard these parables) because they did not repent and believe in Jesus. Repentance is in context to turning from one's evil and wicked ways. Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to read Jonah 3, you would see that the Ninevites had turned from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance.
Whether I have children or not would not change what I believe Scripture says plainly. No parent who is good would ever condone or allow their child to do evil things such as steal, murder, and sleep around with everyone on the block. For if a parent were to let their child to do so would mean they would be condoning their evil actions. It is no different with God. He is our Heavenly Father. So if one thinks that God would allow them to think they can sin and still be saved, then that would reflect badly back upon God (if such a thing were true). So no. What you teach is wrong. Yes, a child can go prodigal. But a loving father would never approve of them in being prodigal as a way of life. They have to repent and come back and be in service to the Father again. For the father of the prodigal son said that his son was dead and was alive again twice. This is speaking in spiritual terms of course. For when did Jesus not speak in spiritual terms when speaking a parable?
looks like you quoted the truth, but missed the point.
the publican, the harlots, the thieves, )((((((who repent ))))))(
"jesus
tells
them
go and sin NO MORE", lest you end up worse than before ! (how DARE JESUS TELL SOMEONE THAT!?!?!)
hint: he spoke what yahweh speaks, GOD'S WORD.
as do his disciples.
the publican, the harlots, the thieves, )((((((who repent ))))))(
"jesus
tells
them
go and sin NO MORE", lest you end up worse than before ! (how DARE JESUS TELL SOMEONE THAT!?!?!)
hint: he spoke what yahweh speaks, GOD'S WORD.
as do his disciples.
For surely if Hitler was one's child, one would not be so quick to admit that they were the parent of such a man. Why? Because he murdered a whole bunch of people. So no. Just because a person is related by blood does not mean you would want to be associated with them if they did evil; And in God's eyes, if one prefers their evil or sin over Him, then that is their choice. God is not going to force a person up into Heaven if they really don't love him but they prefer their sin instead.
B
'Yes, the Tax Collector was more justified for crying to God to have mercy on him in being a sinner than the Pharisee who thought he was better than the Tax Collector, but we have to look at all Scripture from a balanced viewpoint.'
You made this statement for the very reason that you believe it in your heart. Your comparison, 'was more justified', was with the Pharisee. The publican asked for mercy as a sinner because he was helpless and needed mercy. He acknowledged himself a sinner and went home justified and the other did not. The publican is not repenting of his sins, but he is acknowledged himself a sinner in need of mercy. There are no sins mentioned, only an assumption as to the sins of publicans, those greedy and deceitful tax collectors. The Pharisee prided himself as to abstaining from certain sins that labeled and were associated with others. When we, for one minute, think that we have ceased from sin in our walk with God, we have removed ourselves from grace.
In our walk and intimacy with the Lord, we become more sensitive to the leading of the Spirit and the grace of God and become more acutely aware of the imaginations we have, the thoughts we think, the words we express and the life we live before God and others. Our sin can be that of knowing what to do or to do good and doing it not, even though we have not violated the law of God in any way. The servant is not greater than his master and the servant is to hear the master and be a doer of the what he hears (John 13:16, 15:20).
You made this statement for the very reason that you believe it in your heart. Your comparison, 'was more justified', was with the Pharisee. The publican asked for mercy as a sinner because he was helpless and needed mercy. He acknowledged himself a sinner and went home justified and the other did not. The publican is not repenting of his sins, but he is acknowledged himself a sinner in need of mercy. There are no sins mentioned, only an assumption as to the sins of publicans, those greedy and deceitful tax collectors. The Pharisee prided himself as to abstaining from certain sins that labeled and were associated with others. When we, for one minute, think that we have ceased from sin in our walk with God, we have removed ourselves from grace.
In our walk and intimacy with the Lord, we become more sensitive to the leading of the Spirit and the grace of God and become more acutely aware of the imaginations we have, the thoughts we think, the words we express and the life we live before God and others. Our sin can be that of knowing what to do or to do good and doing it not, even though we have not violated the law of God in any way. The servant is not greater than his master and the servant is to hear the master and be a doer of the what he hears (John 13:16, 15:20).
A
You are in danger of Hell fire. You believe us to be fools and you hate the brothers. How clear do I have to make this? You quote the same thing and yet will not listen to the words you write -- the words from that book that you cut to shreds by your lies and hatred.
That is the point!!!
I'm done playing Ring around the Posies with you. Let me know, if you ever get this.
That is the point!!!
I'm done playing Ring around the Posies with you. Let me know, if you ever get this.
P
I'm not debating parables or scripture, the point of my post was to demostrate the LOVE OF GOD. I do not question His Holiness or His righteous judgement of sin. What I do question is your understanding of the price that Jesus paid so we could become children of God. Not all mature at the same rate. A parent understands that not everyone developes at the same pace. God knows the heart - not you. Outward forces do not make inner changes only love of Jesus changes heart and THAT changes behavior. I kinda think you have it backwards......
God has a heart that desires mercy not sacrifice, He does not despise a broken heart, He doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
God has a heart that desires mercy not sacrifice, He does not despise a broken heart, He doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
My bad. I should have worded that better. I never believed the Pharisee was ever saved. The Pharisee was not justified and the Tax Collector was justified. But the Tax Collector is not a model of a saint of how God wants all believers to live, though. One message in the Parable is letting us know God is indeed merciful if we do struggle with sin, but the Parable is not a description of how God desires you to live, though. Jesus says be ye perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.