THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

[Elin]

The issue here is simple.

The certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT is:

1) Christ is the head of the church, his wife (Eph 5:31-32),

2) the church is the body of Christ (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12; 1Co 12:27, Col 1:18, 24)
in the two-in-one enfleshment (Ge 2:24) of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),

3) Heb 12:22-23 identifies the church with the heavenly Jerusalem,

4) Gal 4:25-26 allegorically identifies those in Christ (the church) with the Jerusalem that is above,

which certain teaching you seek to overcome with uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.

Yours is a false hermeneutic, driven by a false theology,
based in uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8)
which seeks to overcome the certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT.

The issue here is not complicated.

 

[watcher2013]

Let me begin by pointing out the track record of God's people in correctly interpreting
prophecy before it is fulfilled is nothing short of dismal. . .going all the way back
to the time of Jesus, where they thought prophecy meant he would be an earthly king,
right up to our own day, in the interpretations that are making the news.

Prophecy is given in riddles whose meanings often are uncertain to us.

The meaning of prophecy is certain to us only
1) when it is explained Biblically (e.g., Da 2; Rev 17:15-18), or
2) when it is fulfilled.

Then let me move on to also point out that God gives prophecy not only as warning,
but also that in its fulfillment to the last detail, the prophecy is proven to be from God.

Call it "proving the existence of God," if you will.

So the fact that the meanings of prophetic riddles are not certain to us
has no bearing on God's design for the prophecy.


I think it couldn't be clearer that "what the text really said was:"
God gives prophecy in riddles (dark sayings) to all prophets but Moses.

The question about numbers 12:6-8 , Can we understand the meaning of visions and dreams given to prophets:
You are taking the side that visions and dreams are riddles and cannot be interpreted.
With the exception:
a. when it is explained biblically
b. when it is fulfilled
Let me remind you, that the events in the book of Daniel (e.g. Daniel 2) before it was written was not written elsewhere…(applying your exception during that period, Daniel has no way of understanding the vision)
During the days of Daniel, there were no available written references to interpret the dreams and visions.
But He managed to understand the visions/dreams:
Dan 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
Even without written references way back then…Daniel had understanding in ALL VISIONS AND DREAMS.
Dreams and Visions can be understand.

Would you please provide an example of each of the three that I may examine them
and make an informed response. Thanks.

Would you still require detailed examples that the prophets can understand visions and dreams?
Or you do not trust the unequivocal teaching of the bible? When the bible directly said Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams;
Dan 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.

You asked what I thought was the meaning of the prophecy in Revelation.
I don't try to interpret prophetic riddles.

However, from the certain and unequivocal teaching of 2Pe 3:10-13, I know that
the new heaven and new earth is eternity, at the end of time.

This unequivocal teaching of 2Peter3:10-13, was it not a prophetic statement?
And based from what you know that the new Heaven and New earth is at the end of time, I think it cannot be denied that there is a big possibility that John vision regarding the new heaven and new earth was also referring to that of your unequivocal teaching that you know. This by the way also placed the New Jerusalem at the end of time:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. v:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Placing the Marriage at that time and not NOW

From the certain and unequivocal teaching of Heb 12:22-23, I know that
in the

New Covenant, the Hebrew Christians had come from Mt. Sinai
to Mt. Zion,

to the heavenly city,

to the church of the firstborn
(i.e., redeemed--Ex 13:13, 15, 30:12, 34:20; Nu 18:15-16; 1Pe 1:18;
ransomed--Ex 30:12; Mt 20:28; bought back--1Co 6:20, 7:23; purchased--Ac 20:28).

Originally Posted by Elin View PostOkay, you lost me there.
I thought it was self-evident why I used that particular description of the church in the list since our subject is the church as the New Jerusalem.
However, all in the list are a description of the church.

Originally Posted by watcher2013
Here's the list of heb 12:22-23
1. Mount Sion
2. The city of the living God
3. Heavenly Jerusalem
4. Innumerable company of Angels
5. General assembly and church of firstborn
6. God the judge of all
7. Spirits of just men made perfect
8. Jesus the mediator of new covenant
9. The blood of sprinkling

A Big Change of statement from: “All the List are a description of the Church”…to what you know now, where the Hebrews Christian have come unto….

Heb 12:22 identifies the heavenly city with the church.

All of this was clearly presented to you in post #99, here.

You identify the heavenly Jerusalem as the Church
Picture Hebrew 12:
The writer was talking to the Hebrew Christian “which I think you will agree was the church”
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion,…
Apply that to the statement
Heb12:22 But ye (the church) are come unto mount Sion (the Church)….
For me, that sounds strange…and you referring the church to the innumerable angels…

You don't get the Biblical meaning of the marriage union, do you?

As his wife, the church is two-in-one-flesh with Christ; i.e., his body, his flesh and bone.
And Christ is the Lamb, whose bride is the New Jerusalem.

The wife (one in his flesh, his own body) of Christ is the church (Eph 5:31-32).
Christ is the Lamb (Jn 1:29, 36; 1Pe 1:19).
The bride of the Lamb is the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:9-10, 14b).

You must demonstrate the above are untrue, in order to demonstrate the following is untrue:

Church the body
The very root of encouragement:
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.
Wives submission to husband: (Eph 5:21-24)
Talking to wives:
Christ as Head of the Church….(THE BODY)
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1Co_11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
The verse was talking about headship…and I think Col 1:18 and 1 Cor 11:3 covers the explanation:
Husband Love you wives: (Eph 5:25-30)
Talking to husband:
CHRIST LOVE THE CHURCH...(THE BODY)
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Christ the Head….the Church is the body:
THE Union OF HEAD AND THE BODY: ( Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.)
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
To encourage you brothers and sisters;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Therefore, the wife and bride of Christ, the Lamb, is the church, the New Jerusalem.

It's not complicated.

The New Jerusalem is the Bride, The Church is the Body

Actually, demonstration is what decides.

We assume that everyone here is capable of determining whether one's statement/argument
has been actually demonstrated or not, and is also capable, if necessary, of demonstrating
how it has not.

I think we demonstrated enough…you may not accept it...but maybe someone does.

Or perhaps it reflects not basing one's beliefs on prophetic riddles of uncertain meaning,
which can be, and are, validly interpreted by others to mean things entirely different,

but rather basing one's belief on certain and unequivocal Biblical teaching, as in
Eph 1:22-23, 4:12, 5:31-32; 1Co 12:27; Col 1:18, 24; Heb 12:22-23.

What is the difference between unequivocal teaching and prophetic riddles?
When you consider 2Pet 3:10-13 as unequivocal teaching, and Rev 21:1-2 as riddles.

 

[watcher2013]

The issue here is simple.

The certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT is:

1) Christ is the head of the church, his wife (Eph 5:31-32),

That is what you want to believe:

Christ the head of the Church not because it is his wife:

But as Man is head of woman so as Christ is head of the Church
1Co_11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesian 5: talking to husbands and wives...and Headship and Love of Christ to the church (the BODY) was given an example to follow:

2) the church is the body of Christ (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12; 1Co 12:27, Col 1:18, 24)
in the two-in-one enfleshment (Ge 2:24) of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),

The Church is the Body..no questioned about it.

3) Heb 12:22-23 identifies the church with the heavenly Jerusalem,

You identify the Church as the heavenly Jerusalem, not with...

4) Gal 4:25-26 allegorically identifies those in Christ (the church) with the Jerusalem that is above,

which certain teaching you seek to overcome with uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.

Yours is a false hermeneutic, driven by a false theology,
based in uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8)
which seeks to overcome the certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT.

The issue here is not complicated.

the Heavenly Jerusalem is above:
But where is the Church?
You yourself have difficulty differentiating unequivocal teaching (2pet 3:10-13) to prophetic riddles Rev: 21:1-2...

 

[Elin]

The issue here is simple.

The certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT is:

1) Christ is the head of the church, his wife (Eph 5:31-32),

2) the church is the body of Christ (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12; 1Co 12:27, Col 1:18, 24)
in the two-in-one enfleshment (Ge 2:24) of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),

3) Heb 12:22-23 identifies the church with the heavenly Jerusalem,

4) Gal 4:25-26 allegorically identifies those in Christ (the church) with the Jerusalem that is above,

which certain teaching you seek to overcome with uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.

Yours is a false hermeneutic, driven by a false theology,
based in uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8)
which seeks to overcome the certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT.

The issue here is not complicated.

That is what you want to believe:

Indeed! . .as with all certain and unequivocal teaching of Scripture.

Christ the head of the Church not because it is his wife:

Except for that part which says,

" 'a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh.'. . .I am talking about Christ and the church."

But as Man is head of woman so as Christ is head of the Church
1Co_11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesian 5: talking to husbands and wives...and Headship and Love of Christ to the church (the BODY) was given an example to follow:

Yep. . .headship and love of Christ to the church. . .in the context of the marital union of v. 31, just as
the headship of the husband is in the context of the marital union.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Which headship has already been explained in Eph 5:31-32 and 1Co 11:3 as in the marital union
of Christ and the church.

You identify the Church as the heavenly Jerusalem, not with...

And the difference would be?

the Heavenly Jerusalem is above:
But where is the Church?

The heavenly Jerusalem of Heb 12:22 is also the locus of the earthly Hebrew Christians in Heb 12:23.

You yourself have difficulty differentiating unequivocal teaching (2pet 3:10-13) to prophetic riddles (Rev: 21:1-2)...

There is no Biblical problem with equating 2Pe 3:10-13 to the new heaven and new earth of Rev 21:1-2,

however, there is a Biblical problem with separating Christ, the Lamb (Jn 1:29, 36, 1Pe 1:19)

from his bride and wife (Eph 5:31-32), the New Jerusalem which is the church (Heb 12:22-23;
Gal 4:25-26)

and his body (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12; 1Co 12:27, Col 1:18, 24) in the two-in-one enfleshment (Ge 2:24)

of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32), of which body he is, of course, the head (it's his own body after all).

And speaking of Christ having the pre-eminence in all things (Col 1:18),
this paltry little scenario you've constructed pales to the glorious beauty of the mystery,

"which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things (in Jesus Christ, Col 1:16).

His intent was that now, through the church (not some other entity),
the manifold wisdom of God should be made known

to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose, which

he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Eph 3:9-10)

The church, and no other entity, is the crown jewel of God's new creation (Rev 21:1, 11, 18-21).

It is God's one purpose in human history (Eph 1:8-11),
the goal of all his counsels (Ro 8:30, 9:22-24--cf Ex 12:36; Dt 4:37-38; 1Ch 17:12-14;
Pr 13:22, 21:18; Isa 43:3-4),
the fullness (completion) of his Son (Eph 1:22-23) as bridegroom and king,
the showcase of his wisdom (Eph 3:10-11),
the true Temple (Eph 2:19-22), and
the singular residence of his glory (Rev 21:22-23).

It is the true seed of Abraham (Ro 4:11; Gal 3:29),
the one tree (Ro 11:17-24), the true vine (Jn 15:1), the one fold (Jn 10:16),
the purpose of Christ's headship over everything (Eph 1:23), not just over his wife of Eph 5:31-32,
the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11; Eph 3:9-10), there is no other age to come after the church.

God has no other plan on earth than his church, and God has revealed no other plan for his church.
When the church, his bride, has been prepared and is ready to be presented to the bridegroom,
(the church is his bride both present and future,
just as salvation is both present and future, Ro 13:11; Heb 9:28; 1 Pe 1:5)
he will come for her, and the curtain of time and history will come done, the end will come, time will
be no more, and the Ruler from Bethelehem (Mic 5:2) will hand over the kingdom (the church) to God
the Father (1Co 15:24, 28).

This is the certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT,

not the uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.

 

[Elin]

How do you understand numbers 12:6-8?
Do you think that the visions given to prophet will not be understand and will remain riddles????

Let me begin by pointing out the track record of God's people in correctly interpreting
prophecy before it is fulfilled is nothing short of dismal. . .going all the way back
to the time of Jesus, where they thought prophecy meant he would be an earthly king,
right up to our own day, in the interpretations that are making the news.

Prophecy is given in riddles whose meanings often are uncertain to us.

The meaning of prophecy is certain to us only
1) when it is explained Biblically (e.g., Da 2; Rev 17:15-18), or
2) when it is fulfilled.

Then let me move on to also point out that God gives prophecy not only as warning,
but also that in its fulfillment to the last detail, the prophecy is proven to be from God.

Call it "proving the existence of God," if you will.

So the fact that the meanings of prophetic riddles are not certain to us
has no bearing on God's design for the prophecy.

You yourself have difficulty differentiating unequivocal teaching (2pet 3:10-13) to prophetic riddles (Rev: 21:1-2)...

There is no Biblical problem with equating 2Pe 3:10-13 to the new heaven and new earth of Rev 21:1-2,

The question about numbers 12:6-8 ,
Can we understand the meaning of visions and dreams given to prophets:

You are taking the side that visions and dreams are riddles and cannot be interpreted.

With the exception:
a. when it is explained biblically
b. when it is fulfilled

Let me remind you that the events in the book of Daniel (e.g., Daniel 2) before it was written was not written elsewhere...(applying your exception during that period, Daniel has no way of understanding the vision)

Daniel's understanding in Da 2 was given to him by God (Da 2:19).

Note that I stated "certain to us," that's today, now that revelation is closed.

During the days of Daniel, there were no available written references to interpret the dreams and visions. But
he managed to understand the visions/dreams:
Dan 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and
Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
Even without written references way back then…
Daniel had understanding in ALL VISIONS AND DREAMS.

Dreams and Visions can be understand.

Such confusion. . .

Of course they can, when God gives the explanation.

But Daniel didn't "manage" to understand anything, God gave him the understanding.

Are you saying the meaning of prophetic riddles can be known today with certainty because some are
receiving explanations from God, as did Daniel?

Would you still require detailed examples that the prophets can understand visions and dreams?

If by "understading visions and dreams," you mean God reveals the meaning to them,
then of course I don't.

However, I would like examples of their understanding apart from God giving them the meaning,
if that is what you meant in your former statement that "dreams and visions were understood."

This unequivocal teaching of 2Peter3:10-13, was it not a prophetic statement?

No, the prophetic statements are in the books of prophecy.

The teaching of a future resurrection is not prophecy.
The teaching of a future judgment is not prophecy.
The teaching of new heavens and a new earth at the end of time is not prophecy.
The teaching that the saints will meet the Lord in the air at his second coming is not prophecy.
The teaching of our future salvation (Ro 13:11; Heb 9:28; 1Pe 1:5) is not prophecy.

Just because the certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT concerns what is future
does not make it prophecy.

Such confusion. . .

And based from what you know that the new Heaven and New earth is at the end of time, I think it cannot be denied that there is a
big possibility that John vision regarding the new heaven and new earth was also referring to that of your unequivocal teaching that you know.

Are you paying attention?

Yes, I said there was no problem with the new heavens and new earth of 2Pe 3:10-13 being the new heavens and new earth of John in Rev 21:1-2.

This by the way also placed the New Jerusalem at the end of time:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. v:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Placing the Marriage at that time and not NOW

Yes, the bride/wife of Christ (Eph 5:31-32) and the new Jerusalem (Heb 12:22)
are both present and future, just as salvation is both present and future (Ro 13:11; Heb 9:28; 1Pe 1:5).

That they are present does not exclude that they are future, in the bride, the New Jerusalem, or salvation.

A Big Change of statement from: “All the List are a description of the Church”…to what you know now, where the Hebrews Christian have come unto….

No change. . .please point out the change to which you are referring.

You identify the heavenly Jerusalem as the Church

Picture Hebrew 12: The writer was talking to the Hebrew Christian “which I think you will agree was the church”

The writer was addressing individuals, as do all the NT letters.
Those individuals are also the adopted sons of God, the body of Christ, the redeemed, etc.,
as well as "the church."
We don't substitute "adopted sons of God," or "body of Christ," or "redeemed," etc.
everywhere the word "you" appears in the NT letters.

Such confusion. . .

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion...,

Apply that to the statement
Heb12:22 But ye (the church) are come unto mount Sion (the Church)….

For me, that sounds strange

On that we are agreed. . .and the strangeness is your first clue that you've got it wrong.

Such confusion. . .

and you referring the church to the innumerable angels…

That is the text of Heb 12:23 regarding those in the new covenant (Mt. Zion), which are those in Christ, which is the church,
and which has been previously addressed with you.

Such confusion. . .

The New Jerusalem is the Bride, The Church is the Body

Agreed. . .and the church is the bride/wife (Eph 5:31-32).

Actually, demonstration is what decides.

We assume that everyone here is capable of determining whether one's statement/argument
has been actually demonstrated or not, and is also capable, if necessary, of demonstrating
how it has not.

I think we demonstrated enough

Well, you've certainly demonstrated enough confusion.

However, none of these demonstrations are holding up to Biblical scrutiny.

What is the difference between unequivocal teaching and prophetic riddles?

When you consider 2Pet 3:10-13 as unequivocal teaching, and Rev 21:1-2 as riddles.

The riddle of Rev 21:1-14 is not in the appellation "new heaven and new earth,"
it is in the meaning of the Bride, the new Jerusalem, and in all the imagery involved.

Such confusion. . .

 

[watcher2013]

Let those who views decide. Let other's have their opinion.
Where will i compare salvation???
Salvation is like riding a train.
First you have to know the destination of the train, how to get in the train. Then you must ride it till it reach its destination, if you jump out of it, you die.
The good thing about it is, even if you fell asleep while in the train, you are sure someone will wake you up when the train reached its destination.

Salvation is at the resurrection at his coming
.
[[Heb 9:28] KJV So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
You may be in the train at the moment, but you havent yet reached the destination.

Marriage is another.

You cannot be married today and married again in the future, unless of course if you divorce the first then re-marry.

Christ (the head) and the Church (his body) is already united/one today, and in the future the Lamb will marry the Bride the New Jerusalem and only then the Bride and the lamb with his body will become one.

 

[Elin]

Let those who views decide. Let other's have their opinion.
Where will i compare salvation???
Salvation is like riding a train.
First you have to know the destination of the train, how to get in the train. Then
you must ride it till it reach its destination, if you jump out of it, you die.
The good thing about it is, even if you fell asleep while in the train, you are sure someone will wake you up when the train reached its destination.

Salvation is at the resurrection at his coming.

[[Heb 9:28] KJV So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
You may be in the train at the moment, but you havent yet reached the destination.

More confusion. . .

Yet the NT uses the past tense, "saved" (e.g., Ro 8:24; 1Co 1:18, 15:2; Eph 2:5, 8).

Salvation is both present and future, as are the bride/wife (Rev 21:9) of Jesus,
and the New Jerusalem (Gal 4:25-26; Heb 12:22).

Marriage is another.

You cannot be married today and married again in the future,

More confusion. . .

You've got it backwards.

Human marriage is not the pattern for Christ and the church,
it's the other way around.

Christ (the head) and the Church (his body) is already united/one today,
and in the future the Lamb will marry the Bride the New Jerusalem

However, the text states that the bride is the wife of the Lamb (Rev 21:9).

and only then the Bride and the lamb with his body will become one.

And therein is your confusion revealed. . .by your own testimony.

The Bride is the wife of the Lamb (Rev 21:9), they are one and the same.

The Lamb is Christ (Jn 1:29, 36, 1Pe 1:19).
The body of Christ, the Lamb, is the church (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12; 1Co 12:27; Col 1:18, 24).
The body of Christ, the Lamb, is the Bride (your testimony).
The bride/wife (Rev 21:9) of Christ, the Lamb, is the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:9-10).

As hard as you try to divide the bride from the wife, and the church from the New Jerusalem,
the Biblical text cannot be put asunder.

The bride and wife of Christ, the Lamb, is the church, the New Jerusalem, both
present, on earth now, and
future, when Christ returns.

 

[watcher2013]

More confusion. . .

Yet the NT uses the past tense, "saved" (e.g., Ro 8:24; 1Co 1:18, 15:2; Eph 2:5, 8).

Salvation is both present and future, as are the bride/wife (Rev 21:9) of Jesus,
and the New Jerusalem (Gal 4:25-26; Heb 12:22).


More confusion. . .

You've got it backwards.

Human marriage is not the pattern for Christ and the church,
it's the other way around.


However, the text states that the bride is the wife of the Lamb (Rev 21:9).


And therein is your confusion revealed. . .by your own testimony.

The Bride is the wife of the Lamb (Rev 21:9), they are one and the same.

The Lamb is Christ (Jn 1:29, 36, 1Pe 1:19).
The body of Christ, the Lamb, is the church (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12; 1Co 12:27; Col 1:18, 24).
The body of Christ, the Lamb, is the Bride (your testimony).
The bride/wife (Rev 21:9) of Christ, the Lamb, is the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:9-10).

As hard as you try to divide the bride from the wife, and the church from the New Jerusalem,
the Biblical text cannot be put asunder.

The bride and wife of Christ, the Lamb, is the church, the New Jerusalem, both
present, on earth now, and
future, when Christ returns.

Last question to you Elin, regarding this topic.

Are you living (Now) in the Holy City, New Jerusalem, the Bride?

 

[homwardbound]

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[homwardbound]

So in the meantime we are to reckon self dead:
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Dead to flesh sin and alive to God until we get our new bodies, we today stay alive in Spirit not in flesh, even though we are in flesh we are to reckon we are dead to it
Acts 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

 

[john832]

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Very good my friend. Hasn't happened yet, occurs at the resurreciton. All we have now is the down payment...

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It is called the Spirit of promise because we have received the realization of it yet. We are holding on to the promise...

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

We are in some pretty good company though...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[Elin]

Last question to you Elin, regarding this topic.

Are you living (Now) in the Holy City, New Jerusalem, the Bride?

I am the wife, bride and body of Christ, the Lamb = church = New Jerusalem.

 

[watcher2013]

Very good my friend. Hasn't happened yet, occurs at the resurreciton. All we have now is the down payment...

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It is called the Spirit of promise because we have received the realization of it yet. We are holding on to the promise...

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

We are in some pretty good company though...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Just to follow up and as related to the subject of the thread:
[Heb 11:16] KJV But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

GOD PREPARED A CITY, A HEAVENLY CITY.

[Rev 21:2] KJV And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

[Rev 21:9-10] KJV v 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
v 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

[Elin]

Just to follow up and as related to the subject of the thread:
[Heb 11:16] KJV But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

GOD PREPARED A CITY, A HEAVENLY CITY.

[Rev 21:2] KJV And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

[Rev 21:9-10] KJV v 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee
the bride, the Lamb's wife.
v 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

You are going back to uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.

However, the certain and equivocal teaching of the NT is that
like salvation, which is past (rebirth), present (sanctification) and future (eternity,
glorification, Ro 8:23),

so the union of the church with Christ is both present (Eph 1:22-23, 5:31-32) and future (eternity,
new heavens and new earth),

and the New Jerusalem is both present (Gal 4:25-26; Heb 12:22) and future (eternity,
new heaven and new earth).

This certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT has been explained to you several times now.

So the issue is not lack of understanding of the certain teaching of the NT, it is simply lack of belief,
in favor of your uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles.

The issue is not complicated.

 

[watcher2013]

Elin,
i asked you the last question hoping that you will make sense. But you just showed that there are no more sense discussing this topic to you.
However, you can continue with this thread, maybe there are others who will entertain your non sense.

 

[dcontroversal]

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

No doubt and what a day that will be.

 

[dcontroversal]

So in the meantime we are to reckon self dead:
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Dead to flesh sin and alive to God until we get our new bodies, we today stay alive in Spirit not in flesh, even though we are in flesh we are to reckon we are dead to it
Acts 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Yes in deed...we are to take up our cross daily and like Joshua, choose you this day who you will serve.....

 

[jkalyna]

It kind of sounds funny to say that to the male gender. I think it is referring to all the believers who are waiting for the return of the Lord. It says we are betrothed works for both genders. It says, let your garments be without spot or wrinkle, otherwise your life, that is shown what appears to others.
It is an imitation of the devil, he enjoys to mimick and make fake things in comparision to Christ. Those who do not know Jesus, could make up their faces, and look like a bride, but Jesus said you are full of dead mens bones, the outside tomb is whitewashed, but inside it is death, without Jesus there is no life, the spirit of man is dead, not quickened, not having received the new birth,he is not coming for a corpse, spiritually dead, for only the spirit will enter his kingdom. We are the Father's adopted children, and we call him Abba Father, the bride of Christ, is us, we've entered into a blood covenant with the Lord, through his shedding of blood, and in communion, he says, if you don't partake you have no life in you. This is our covenant with Jesus, he has come into us, betrothed us, and it says, he is our husbandman, that we should not give our love to another, as commiting spiritual adultery.

​

 

[watcher2013]

It kind of sounds funny to say that to the male gender. I think it is referring to all the believers who are waiting for the return of the Lord. It says we are betrothed works for both genders. It says, let your garments be without spot or wrinkle, otherwise your life, that is shown what appears to others.
It is an imitation of the devil, he enjoys to mimick and make fake things in comparision to Christ. Those who do not know Jesus, could make up their faces, and look like a bride, but Jesus said you are full of dead mens bones, the outside tomb is whitewashed, but inside it is death, without Jesus there is no life, the spirit of man is dead, not quickened, not having received the new birth,he is not coming for a corpse, spiritually dead, for only the spirit will enter his kingdom. We are the Father's adopted children, and we call him Abba Father, the bride of Christ, is us, we've entered into a blood covenant with the Lord, through his shedding of blood, and in communion, he says, if you don't partake you have no life in you. This is our covenant with Jesus, he has come into us, betrothed us, and it says, he is our husbandman, that we should not give our love to another, as commiting spiritual adultery.

​

It would be better if you could add scripture references for more informed discussion.
Regarding husbandman, if you are referring to John 15:1-2, Husbandman there refers to the Farmer. (2kings 25:12, mat21:33)

read this whole thread no. 9, you will learn a lot.

 

[dcontroversal]

Elin,
i asked you the last question hoping that you will make sense. But you just showed that there are no more sense discussing this topic to you.
However, you can continue with this thread, maybe there are others who will entertain your non sense.

You can forget that one....it is easy to coin some stupid phrase that you can lump scripture under that contradicts the heretical teaching that one would spew, especially when the (lumped scripture) under said stupid coined phrase contradicts the heretical teaching that is being spewed by those who refuse to acknowledge scripture that is in a book that REVEALS TRUTH THAT IS MEANT TO BE UNDERSTOOD.