The Doctrine of Hell: Under Attack

[Ahwatukee]

Sheol/Hades - Characteristics of:

· Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,

· Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,

· Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17

· Has Chambers - Prov.7:27

· Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18

· A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24

· Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14

Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.

Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

 

[Meggido]

I did not single you out. I said "all believers." Pay attention! As for the gathering of the church, the truth of it will be made obvious to you and all very soon.

Said the same date setting clowns for 100's of years.....tell me, where you all lathered up 2 years ago during September of 2015?

When the beast comes to power and you are still here do not mistake him for Jesus, deal?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I was also baptized because of hoping to be able to buy Fire Insurance. It took many more years to finally meet the love of Jesus.

Being saved from eternal judgment in the lake of fire demonstrates the love Jesus.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Sheol in the OT is more about not being conscious

No, both Sheol and Hades are referring to the same place, where all are conscious and aware.

 

[Willie-T]

Being saved from eternal judgment in the lake of fire demonstrates the love Jesus.

That's like saying, "As long as my Daddy thinks I'm honoring him, he won't beat me..... and that proves he loves me."

 

[Ahwatukee]

I see.

Sheol in the OT is more about not being conscious. While hades in Greek mind is about conscious existence in the underworld. I am not sure whether we can say its the same, even though hades is freqently used for the translation of sheol...

Sheol is also more general, I would say. It can mean also "grave", which is not hades.

This could be a good topic though.

Wherever the word "qeber" is found in the OT it refers to the grave, tomb, sepulcher. Wherever the word "Sheol" is found refers to the realm of departed spirits. In the NT wherever the word "Hades" is found is referring to the place of departed spirits. The word "mnémeion" or a variation of it, always refers to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, where "Hades" should always refer to the place of departed spirits.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That's like saying, "As long as my Daddy thinks I'm honoring him, he won't beat me..... and that proves he loves me."

No, that we are saved by faith is something that we should all be aware of. Jesus is the One who told his disciples and all believers to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. And that was not a one time fear.

 

[Meggido]

No, that we are saved by faith is something that we should all be aware of. Jesus is the One who told his disciples and all believers to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. And that was not a one time fear.

Yeah, but see, Jesus went to hades so we would not have to...

 

[CherieR]

In Luke 10:20 it says:Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Now it does not say we have to remind ourselves what we were saved from. The knowledge that we were saved from hell leads us to rejoice that our names are written in heaven. Remember the song In Christ Alone? There is a part in the song that says " Till on the cross as Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied. For every sin on him was laid..." The knowledge of salvation from the wrath of God or hell is reason to rejoice.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Said the same date setting clowns for 100's of years.....tell me, where you all lathered up 2 years ago during September of 2015?

When the beast comes to power and you are still here do not mistake him for Jesus, deal?

You sure do misquote allot! I never set a date. I said that you will find out very shortly. We are that generation that will see this fulfilled. No other generation has seen the technology for the mark of the beast where people actually beginning to use it.

When the beast comes to power and you are still here do not mistake him for Jesus, deal?

Of course not! I would know the antichrist in an instant and that because I have and continue to study end-time events. Therefore I would know who he is as soon as he made that seven year agreement with Israel. But I thank God that neither I nor other believers will be here to see the antichrist.

How could anyone mistake the antichrist/beast for Jesus? The antichrist comes as a political and religious leader on planet earth, proclaiming himself to be God. Where Jesus returns to the earth on a white horse and the church with him.

I don't see how anyone could confuse the two, except for those who haven't studied the word of God and those who want to save their own lives.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yeah, but see, Jesus went to hades so we would not have to...

Jesus did not suffer the fire in Hades/Sheol. He went to that place of paradise where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was across from the place where the rich man went that was separated by that great chasm.

Scripture states that "the wages of sin is death" and "unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins." This is what Jesus did for everyone who believes.

The reason that Jesus resurrected is because the wages of sin is death. And because Jesus had no sin himself, death could not hold him.

 

[Meggido]

You sure do misquote allot! I never set a date. I said that you will find out very shortly. We are that generation that will see this fulfilled. No other generation has seen the technology for the mark of the beast where people actually beginning to use it.


Of course not! I would know the antichrist in an instant and that because I have and continue to study end-time events. Therefore I would know who he is as soon as he made that seven year agreement with Israel. But I thank God that neither I nor other believers will be here to see the antichrist.

How could anyone mistake the antichrist/beast for Jesus? The antichrist comes as a political and religious leader on planet earth, proclaiming himself to be God. Where Jesus returns to the earth on a white horse and the church with him.

I don't see how anyone could confuse the two, except for those who haven't studied the word of God and those who want to save their own lives.

rapture and dispensation rubbish talking....

 

[Meggido]

Jesus did not suffer the fire in Hades/Sheol. He went to that place of paradise where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was across from the place where the rich man went that was separated by that great chasm.

Scripture states that "the wages of sin is death" and "unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins." This is what Jesus did for everyone who believes.

you are over pay grade friend... Psalm 16 shows us Clearly Jesus was in sheol...he went there so you would not have to...if you are going to plug substitution you better take it all the way or not at all....

 

[Ahwatukee]

rapture and dispensation rubbish talking....

Not rubbish, but a promise to keep believers out of the time of tribulation that is coming upon the whole world. It is every believers blessed hope according to the Lord's promise:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3

1 Thes.4:13-18 is a detailed account of the fulfillment of the promise above. Once the church has been completed, the Lord is going to come for his bride and take her back to the Father's house, that where he is we may be also.

You should be hoping in that promise as well.

But let's stop hijacking this thread. This is about Hell, remember?

 

[Magenta]

No, both Sheol and Hades are referring to the same place, where all are conscious and aware.

Death is always associated with oblivion, corruption, dissolution, returning to the dust, passing away as a shadow, the end of thought, knowledge, activity or memory.

SHEOL is a term for the place of the dead in general, and for this reason "hell" in its original and uncorrupted meaning is a better word for sheol than "grave" is.

"Grave" primarily means the specific place of a particular corpse or corpses. The Hebrew for this is geber, as --

• "My grave (geber) which I digged for me" (Gen. 50:5).
  "The king wept at the grave (geber) of Abner" (2 Sam. 3:32).

On the other hand, sheol in the Hebrew and "hell" in its primary meaning are general terms as (Psa. 6:5) --

• "In the grave (sheol) who shall give Thee thanks?"
  "Hell (sheol) and destruction are never full" (Prov. 27:20).

However, while "grave" used as a general term will well fit all passages where sheol occurs, "hell" in the popular sense would be absurd in some places and would immediately reveal the popular error. For example, where Jacob says (Gen. 37:35) --

• "I will go down into sheol unto my son mourning."

And where Job says (14:13) --

• "O that Thou wouldest hide me in sheol."

It is not to be supposed that either Jacob or Job anticipated or hoped to go to eternal torment.

In all the 65 places where Sheol is found, there is not one that gives any countenance to the idea of a place of burning torment of the damned. It is always in the sense of the general hidden state of the dead -- all the dead -- good and bad alike.

And not only is Sheol used as the resting place of all the dead indiscriminately, but we have specific mention of righteousness and approved men going there and expecting to go there.

We have seen this of Jacob and Job. Also David (Psa. 88:3), Hezekiah (Isa. 38:10), Christ (Psa. 16:10; Acts 2:31; 3:15), and all the faithful (compare Hos. 13:14 with 1 Cor. 15:54-56).

Sheol is a place of silence --

• "Let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in Sheol" (Psa. 31:17).
• ​
  "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Psa. 115:17).

There is no remembrance there (Psa. 6:5) --

• "In death there is no remembrance of Thee, in Sheol who shall give Thee thanks?"

Sheol is "in the dust" and there we "rest together" "in darkness" (Job 17:13-16). Beauty is consumed there (Psa. 49:14). There is no work or knowledge there --

• "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol whither thou goest" (Ecc. 9:10).

It is dark there, and is called the "land of forgetfulness," and "destruction" --

• "Wilt Thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee?"
  "Shall Thy loving kindness be declared in Sheol? Or Thy faithfulness in destruction?"
  
  "Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark? And Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?" (Psa. 88:10-12).
• The "mighty" are spoken of as lying there with "their swords under their heads" (Eze. 32:27). This is a clear reference to the ancient custom of burying warriors in their graves with their weapons of war, but quite at variance with the traditional hell of torment.

 

[Ahwatukee]

you are over pay grade friend... Psalm 16 shows us Clearly Jesus was in sheol...he went there so you would not have to...if you are going to plug substitution you better take it all the way or not at all....

And He did go to Sheol, just not to the torment part of the Sheol. You ought to read "the rich man and Lazarus." For it describes Abraham and Lazarus being in Hades/sheol, but on the side that was a place of comfort. Where the rich man was also in Hades/Sheol, but in a place of torment. As I said and as scripture demonstrates, there were to two areas, one of paradise and one of torment in flame, as can be seen from the following:

"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ "

"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Jesus went to that part of Sheol that was a place of comfort.

 

[Magenta]

As to any part of man continuing in consciousness after
death, the Scriptures rule out any such theory.

All the terms that are used in Hebrew to define the element of life or spirit
or breath in man are similarly employed with respect to animals --

Nephesh -- "soul, life, body, or person" ;
Chayiah -- life abstractly considered" ;
Nephesh chayiah -- "living soul or creatures" ;
Ruach -- "breath or spirit" ; and
Neshamah -- "breath."

All these terms are applied to animals just as to man. And of both the preacher says (Eccl. 3:19) --

• "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts... as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (ruach)."

And what is "death" in the one case is "death" in the other -- the opposite of life, the absence of all life, and of all the things that make up life -- vitality, action, knowledge, sensation, emotion, consciousness.

Death is darkness, silence, forgetfulness, corruption, dissolution, smoke, ashes, dust, oblivion --

• "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."

All through the Scriptures the picture is the same --

• "Man goeth to his long home, the mourners go about the streets . . . then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruach -- breath) shall return unto God Who gave it" (Eccl. 12:5-7).
  "His breath (same word -- ruach) goeth forth, he returneth to his earth: in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psa. 146:4).
  "Thou takest away their breath (ruach) they (the animals -- see context) die, and return to their dust" (Psa. 104:29).

We know the common, simple meaning of death. We use the word without any difficulty, and we use it of animals just the same as of humans.

Again Paul, when comforting the Thessalonians concerning those who had died, does not say that they are in heaven in bliss and full consciousness as all the clergy tell us, and that the living will go soon to join them there.

He never mentions anything like this, strangely enough, but he says, on the very CONTRARY (1 Thess. 4:13-18), that the dead in Christ are ASLEEP, and that at the coming of Christ they will arise from that condition to join the living in his presence.

And many times we find Jesus, Paul, and others in Scripture, speaking of the dead as being asleep, and not only just asleep, but "asleep in the dust of the earth" (Dan. 12:2). How can this possibly be if they are wide awake in heaven or even wider awake in hell?

 

[Ahwatukee]

No, I am accusing men who take the easy road and preach against something all the time Vs the hard way of preaching for something....going overboard on a topic that only results in false fear induced salvation.....you also missed my first part...why does a message of hell need to be taught over and over again to spiritually mature saints?

The Holy Spirit does not use fear of hell to lead men into repentance....

I do not disagree there is a hell to shun and a heaven to gain....

"But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love" - Psalm 33:18

 

[Magenta]

Being saved from eternal judgment in the lake of fire demonstrates the love Jesus.

God demonstrates his own love for us in this:
While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Willie-T]

And He did go to Sheol, just not to the torment part of the Sheol. You ought to read "the rich man and Lazarus." For it describes Abraham and Lazarus being in Hades/sheol, but on the side that was a place of comfort. Where the rich man was also in Hades/Sheol, but in a place of torment. As I said and as scripture demonstrates, there were to two areas, one of paradise and one of torment in flame, as can be seen from the following:

"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ "

"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Jesus went to that part of Sheol that was a place of comfort.

Aside from that being a parable talking about Jews thinking they were automatically going to skate, and that it was no "description of Hell", at all........ how do you come to this "torment side and comfort side" conclusion since at the telling of that PARABLE, there had not yet been any judgment day?