The Doctrine of Hell: Under Attack

[Magenta]

DEATH, NOT TORTURE, IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN

Such is death, and the Scriptures declare repeatedly that it is death that is the great penalty for sin. Right from the beginning, death is the sentence, and the wording of that sentence as originally given shows clearly what is meant. God said to Adam as a consequence of his disobedience (Gen. 2:17) --

• "Thou shalt surely DIE."

There was no threatened eternal torment, but on the contrary Adam was told (Gen. 3:19) -

• "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN UNTO THE GROUND: for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST THOU ART AND UNTO DUST SHALT THOU RETURN."

Paul says, commenting upon the Adamic sentence (Rom. 6:23) --

• "The wages of sin is death."
  "By one man’s offence death reigned" (Rom 5:17).

And Rom. 6:21 --

• "The end of those things (the works of the flesh) is death."

-- not eternal living torment, but DEATH.

• "Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH" (James 1:15).

The penalty of death and destruction is both just and merciful, the penalty of eternal torture is neither just nor merciful.

THE WICKED DESTROYED, NOT TORTURED

Death, we have seen, is oblivion and destruction, and death is the wages of sin. The term "DESTROY" is often used of the fate of the wicked. After the "few or many stripes" of chastisement, the end of all is destruction.

The popular conception leaves no room for few or many stripes, for it sweepingly gives all the full maximum penalty possible, eternal agony in hell, millions and millions and millions and millions of years for the sins of so brief a lifetime, and this for the overwhelming majority of mankind, for Jesus says (Matt. 7:13) --

• "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat.
  "And narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it."

But here again we note that in the Bible it is not eternal torment that is threatened but destruction, which is something very different.

In Matt. 25:46, Jesus says the wicked "go into everlasting punishment," and what this everlasting punishment consists of is explained by Paul (2 Thess. 1:7-9) where he says that when Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, the wicked shall be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again (Heb. 10:27) --

• "Judgment and fiery indignation shall devour the adversary."

Jesus says (Matt. 10:28) that God is able to --

• "DESTROY both soul and body in Gehenna."

And Paul told the Philippians (3:19) regarding the fleshly-minded --

• "Their end is destruction."

Peter uses as strong a word as possible when he says (2 Pet. 2:12) --

• "These, as natural brute beasts . . . shall utterly perish in their own corruption."

David declares (Psa. 37:20) --

• "The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

And Malachi 4:1 --

• "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

Psalm 145:20 --

• "The Lord preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy."
  

 

[Persuaded]

You sure do misquote allot! I never set a date. I said that you will find out very shortly. We are that generation that will see this fulfilled. No other generation has seen the technology for the mark of the beast where people actually beginning to use it.


Of course not! I would know the antichrist in an instant and that because I have and continue to study end-time events. Therefore I would know who he is as soon as he made that seven year agreement with Israel. But I thank God that neither I nor other believers will be here to see the antichrist.

How could anyone mistake the antichrist/beast for Jesus? The antichrist comes as a political and religious leader on planet earth, proclaiming himself to be God. Where Jesus returns to the earth on a white horse and the church with him.

I don't see how anyone could confuse the two, except for those who haven't studied the word of God and those who want to save their own lives.

So you do not believe what Paul said in II Thessalonians 2 when he said the man of sin would be revealed before our gathering together with Jesus?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Aside from that being a parable talking about Jews thinking they were automatically going to skate, and that it was no "description of Hell, at all........ how do you come to this "torment side and comfort side" conclusion since at the telling of that PARABLE, there had not yet been any judgement day?

Luke 16:19-31 regarding the rich man and Lazarus, is an actual event that took place and is not a parable. It in no wise reads like a parable, as it uses real names and the real location of Hades. It is a place of torment that holds all of the unrighteous until the final judgment at the great white throne.

The judgment is just a judicial process that the unrighteous will go through during the great white throne judgment. At the time of death, those who go into Hades begin their punishment immediately, for this is what the event is revealing.

To interpret it as a parable is to get rid of the actual meaning that Jesus intended.

 

[Magenta]

Luke 16:19-31 regarding the rich man and Lazarus, is an actual event that took place and is not a parable. It in no wise reads like a parable, as it uses real names and the real location of Hades. It is a place of torment that holds all of the unrighteous until the final judgment at the great white throne.

To interpret it as a parable is to get rid of the actual meaning that Jesus intended.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus uses the names of people, but how does that make it any less a parable? You have assigned rules that are imaginary and nowhere delineated in Scripture.

 

[PrynceNY]

annihilation is false doctrine scriptures clearly says whoever worships & takes the mark of the beast will be tormented forever day and night yet some people think they vanish.

 

[Willie-T]

Luke 16:19-31 regarding the rich man and Lazarus, is an actual event that took place and is not a parable. It in no wise reads like a parable, as it uses real names and the real location of Hades. It is a place of torment that holds all of the unrighteous until the final judgment at the great white throne.

The judgment is just a judicial process that the unrighteous will go through during the great white throne judgment. At the time of death, those who go into Hades begin their punishment immediately, for this is what the event is revealing.

To interpret it as a parable is to get rid of the actual meaning that Jesus intended.

Go ahead and believe that if you must..... but at least try to explain to me why these men (who the parable never says were either one good nor bad) were judged before judgment day comes. And that day could not have come yet because Jesus is still walking on the Earth... and He was talking to living people.

 

[Ahwatukee]

annihilation is false doctrine scriptures clearly says whoever worships & takes the mark of the beast will be tormented forever day and night yet some people think they vanish.

Well said! The problem is that, there are some who take the words "destruction" and "perish" that are translated from the Greek "apollumi, apoleia and olethros" and apply their own meaning to those translated words as annihilation and non existence. The fact of the matter is that, those words do not mean annihilation or extinction, but infer complete loss of well being, complete ruin.

On the contrary, the scriptures demonstrate that those who die, their spirits/souls are conscious and aware after death, but they will not admit to this, but unfortunately will instead contend for the false teaching of annihilation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Go ahead and believe that if you must..... but at least try to explain to me why these men (who the parable never says were either one good nor bad) were judged before judgment day comes. And that day could not have come yet because Jesus is still walking on the Earth... and He was talking to living people.

Well we have to begin with Hebrews 9:27 to understand the NARRATIVE (not parable) of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

What this verse says is that at the moment of death, there is judgment. Those who are in Christ go to "be with the Lord" (being absent from the body). Those who are unsaved go to Hades, and that is illustrated by the Rich Man.

Before the resurrection of Christ, Hades had two compartments -- one for the righteous dead (Abraham's bosom) the other for the unrighteous dead (the place of torments) who will await the Day of Judgment (Rev 20:11-15). But they have already been prejudged since their names are not written in the Book of Life.

Yes, Jesus was talking to living people, but souls were dying and going to Hades all the times. However, Jesus was taking away the veil hiding the netherworld (in the heart of the earth) and showing us what happens at the moment of death.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Go ahead and believe that if you must..... but at least try to explain to me why these men (who the parable never says were either one good nor bad) were judged before judgment day comes. And that day could not have come yet because Jesus is still walking on the Earth... and He was talking to living people.

Good or bad? Excuse me! I see that you missed the whole pointe of the rich man and Lazarus! I believe that the fact that the rich man did not express faith through love by not having compassion on Lazarus demonstrates that the rich man was unrighteous. Obviously Lazarus believed in God, or he would not have been in that place of comfort with father Abraham. This teaching of the rich man would go right along with the teaching of the man who went down to Jericho who was beaten and robbed by bandits, where both the priest and the Levite seeing him passed by not having any compassion on him.

Also and as I said previously, Judgment is a judicial process that will take place at the end of the millennial period. Judgment is not required before the unrighteous can begin their punishment, but is a due process that will take place. If one finds himself in Hades in torment in flame, then when they are resurrected out of Hades they can be guaranteed that their names will not be found in the book of life.

 

[Bladerunner]

DEATH, NOT TORTURE, IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN

Such is death, and the Scriptures declare repeatedly that it is death that is the great penalty for sin. Right from the beginning, death is the sentence, and the wording of that sentence as originally given shows clearly what is meant. God said to Adam as a consequence of his disobedience (Gen. 2:17) --

• "Thou shalt surely DIE."

There was no threatened eternal torment, but on the contrary Adam was told (Gen. 3:19) -

• "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN UNTO THE GROUND: for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST THOU ART AND UNTO DUST SHALT THOU RETURN."

Paul says, commenting upon the Adamic sentence (Rom. 6:23) --

• "The wages of sin is death."
  "By one man’s offence death reigned" (Rom 5:17).

And Rom. 6:21 --

• "The end of those things (the works of the flesh) is death."

-- not eternal living torment, but DEATH.

• "Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH" (James 1:15).

The penalty of death and destruction is both just and merciful, the penalty of eternal torture is neither just nor merciful.

THE WICKED DESTROYED, NOT TORTURED

Death, we have seen, is oblivion and destruction, and death is the wages of sin. The term "DESTROY" is often used of the fate of the wicked. After the "few or many stripes" of chastisement, the end of all is destruction.

The popular conception leaves no room for few or many stripes, for it sweepingly gives all the full maximum penalty possible, eternal agony in hell, millions and millions and millions and millions of years for the sins of so brief a lifetime, and this for the overwhelming majority of mankind, for Jesus says (Matt. 7:13) --

• "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat.
  "And narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it."

But here again we note that in the Bible it is not eternal torment that is threatened but destruction, which is something very different.

In Matt. 25:46, Jesus says the wicked "go into everlasting punishment," and what this everlasting punishment consists of is explained by Paul (2 Thess. 1:7-9) where he says that when Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, the wicked shall be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again (Heb. 10:27) --

• "Judgment and fiery indignation shall devour the adversary."

Jesus says (Matt. 10:28) that God is able to --

• "DESTROY both soul and body in Gehenna."

And Paul told the Philippians (3:19) regarding the fleshly-minded --

• "Their end is destruction."

Peter uses as strong a word as possible when he says (2 Pet. 2:12) --

• "These, as natural brute beasts . . . shall utterly perish in their own corruption."

David declares (Psa. 37:20) --

• "The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

And Malachi 4:1 --

• "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

Psalm 145:20 --

• "The Lord preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy."
  

I am sorry Magenta, but I have to disagree with you on this point. DEATH, NOT TORTURE, IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN

Luke 16:19-31 tells us many things about Hades, Shoel and Paradise. Those souls in either could feel, talk, they had cognitive thinking and more. I suggest reading the story. It is not a fable.

Now, there is one scripture that tells us the lake of Fire is forever and ever.

Rev.19:20.. The antichrist and the False Prophet were placed in the Lake of Fire.

In Rev 20: 2 ...Satan was bound for 1000 years in the bottomless pit.

In Rev 20:10 after Satan was loosed after 1000 years and again deceived nations. Having done this He himself is then thrown into the Lake of Fire.

This passage also tells us the antichrist (beast) and the false prophet were still waiting there for him after 1000 years...

Imagine an eternity of torment like the Rich man had in Hell or worse.. Rem Hell (Hades or Sheol) was just a holding place for wayward souls. I am sure the Burning Lake of Fire is far worse.

The only death there is; is of the earthly mortal body. The eternal soul never dies!

 

[Grace777x70]

What I find interesting in the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus is the fact that the only reason given for the rich man to be in hell is that he was rich. The only reason that Lazarus was in paradise in Abraham's bosom is because he was poor and received evil things.

All this is complete nonsense in the light of the New Covenant as to be saved has absolutely nothing to do with whether one has money or not in this earth.

To the Jewish mind - being rich was the sign of being blessed of God which they get from the law of Moses. Being poor and sick meant that you were cursed according to the Law.

I believe one of the aspects of this parable/story is to show the fallacy of the Jewish belief system brought in this earth by God to reveal the effects from eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that grace is how God really deals with people.

 

[dcontroversal]

Bu where in Scripture is such a doctrine taught plainly, ?? Eternal destruction, yes. Eternal torture no.



It is not found in the early fathers. It grew up under the influence of pagan philosophy, and was magnified by the RC church..

What part of the following do you not understand, reject or deny....

The smoke of their torment ascending before the throne forever?

 

[dcontroversal]

Go ahead and believe that if you must..... but at least try to explain to me why these men (who the parable never says were either one good nor bad) were judged before judgment day comes. And that day could not have come yet because Jesus is still walking on the Earth... and He was talking to living people.

Does not John 3:36 state clearly that those who do not believe are condemned and judge already?

 

[dcontroversal]

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus uses the names of people, but how does that make it any less a parable? You have assigned rules that are imaginary and nowhere delineated in Scripture.

There is not one place that states that it is a parable....did I miss --->And he spoke a parable unto them before this account? DOES he name specific people by name in the other parables? We agree on many things, but there are too many variables which seem to indicate this is a real occurance as opposed to a parable......

 

[Desertsrose]

What I find interesting in the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus is the fact that the only reason given for the rich man to be in hell is that he was rich. The only reason that Lazarus was in paradise in Abraham's bosom is because he was poor and received evil things.

All this is complete nonsense in the light of the New Covenant as to be saved has absolutely nothing to do with whether one has money or not in this earth.

To the Jewish mind - being rich was the sign of being blessed of God which they get from the law of Moses. Being poor and sick meant that you were cursed according to the Law.

I believe one of the aspects of this parable/story is to show the fallacy of the Jewish belief system brought in this earth by God to reveal the effects from eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that grace is how God really deals with people.

Hi Grace,

Not true. Read towards the end. The rich man lived an unrepentant life. And Jews were to care for the poor, something which he didn't do.

And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[UnderGrace]

I am not sure I agree with you completely as I have not studied it really, the whole topic is difficult.

However I respect how you have set forth your beliefs so bravely.

I do see that it is difficult to reconcile the concept of eternal torment with a God who is Love.

I think you have raised many valid points that need to be considered. So often we have a belief system we have really not searched out for ourselves and it is important to do that, looking at it from all sides.

DEATH, NOT TORTURE, IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN

Such is death, and the Scriptures declare repeatedly that it is death that is the great penalty for sin. Right from the beginning, death is the sentence, and the wording of that sentence as originally given shows clearly what is meant. God said to Adam as a consequence of his disobedience (Gen. 2:17) --

• "Thou shalt surely DIE."

There was no threatened eternal torment, but on the contrary Adam was told (Gen. 3:19) -

• "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN UNTO THE GROUND: for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST THOU ART AND UNTO DUST SHALT THOU RETURN."

Paul says, commenting upon the Adamic sentence (Rom. 6:23) --

• "The wages of sin is death."
  "By one man’s offence death reigned" (Rom 5:17).

And Rom. 6:21 --

• "The end of those things (the works of the flesh) is death."

-- not eternal living torment, but DEATH.

• "Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH" (James 1:15).

The penalty of death and destruction is both just and merciful, the penalty of eternal torture is neither just nor merciful.

THE WICKED DESTROYED, NOT TORTURED

Death, we have seen, is oblivion and destruction, and death is the wages of sin. The term "DESTROY" is often used of the fate of the wicked. After the "few or many stripes" of chastisement, the end of all is destruction.

The popular conception leaves no room for few or many stripes, for it sweepingly gives all the full maximum penalty possible, eternal agony in hell, millions and millions and millions and millions of years for the sins of so brief a lifetime, and this for the overwhelming majority of mankind, for Jesus says (Matt. 7:13) --

• "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat.
  "And narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it."

But here again we note that in the Bible it is not eternal torment that is threatened but destruction, which is something very different.

In Matt. 25:46, Jesus says the wicked "go into everlasting punishment," and what this everlasting punishment consists of is explained by Paul (2 Thess. 1:7-9) where he says that when Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, the wicked shall be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again (Heb. 10:27) --

• "Judgment and fiery indignation shall devour the adversary."

Jesus says (Matt. 10:28) that God is able to --

• "DESTROY both soul and body in Gehenna."

And Paul told the Philippians (3:19) regarding the fleshly-minded --

• "Their end is destruction."

Peter uses as strong a word as possible when he says (2 Pet. 2:12) --

• "These, as natural brute beasts . . . shall utterly perish in their own corruption."

David declares (Psa. 37:20) --

• "The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

And Malachi 4:1 --

• "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

Psalm 145:20 --

• "The Lord preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy."
  

 

[Nehemiah6]

What I find interesting in the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus is the fact that the only reason given for the rich man to be in hell is that he was rich. The only reason that Lazarus was in paradise in Abraham's bosom is because he was poor and received evil things.

If you read between the lines, it was the callous disregard and contempt for the poor that was the rich man's besetting sin. Not to mention his self-indulgence and his love of money (which is idolatry). The Rich Young Ruler also forfeited his salvation because wealth was his idol.

As to Lazarus, he was simply a humble soul who merely sought the crumb's from this rich man's table, and sorely needed medical attention which the rich man could have provided.

This narrative harks back to the parable of the Good Samaritan (although it is itself by no means a parable but the unveiling of Hades). Christ was asked as to "Who is my neighbor" and the Samaritan was the one who fulfilled the second Greatest Commandment, while the others did not. So this rich man was violating the second Greatest Commandment which is love to your neighbor (anyone in dire need).

It is interesting to note how the naysayers immediately identify this narrative as a parable, since it blows a hole in their false doctrine about what happens to unrepentant souls after death. Unrepentant souls are never made extinct but suffer the torments of Hell eternally. This is a serious warning to those who are outside of Christ.

 

[Magenta]

It is interesting to note how the naysayers immediately identify this narrative as a parable, since it blows a hole in their false doctrine about what happens to unrepentant souls after death. Unrepentant souls are never made extinct but suffer the torments of Hell eternally. This is a serious warning to those who are outside of Christ.

You have to nay say one heck of a lot of explicit Scriptures to deny that the wages of sin is death. Those not found in Christ, those whose names are blotted out of the Lamb's book of life following the resurrection and judgment of all, pass from death into the second death. The dead know nothing. Your false doctrine ignores so much you may as well throw your Bible out and stick with fairy tales

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but
rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has
eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift
of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Please, note again: Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption
(phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The Greek word is olethron: destruction. From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the
One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for
fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient
toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in
Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ
will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
How can it be any clearer?

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
The lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead!

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

Following the resurrection and judgement of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.

In fact, Jesus Christ has already overcome death.
Death and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You have to nay say one heck of a lot of explicit Scriptures to deny that the wages of sin is death. Those not found in Christ, those whose names are blotted out of the Lamb's book of life following the resurrection and judgment of all, pass from death into the second death. The dead know nothing. Your false doctrine ignores so much you may as well throw your Bible out and stick with fairy tales

Had you taken the time to see what Vine's Expository Dictionary had to say about "perish" and "destroy/destruction", it would have cleared up everything for you.

The bottom line is that "death" means both physical death and the second death in Rom 6:23, so you simply need to understand what these terms mean.

First death = the separation of the soul and spirit from the body

Second death = the eternal separation of the sinner from God in the Lake of Fire

When people quote "the dead know nothing" they forget whose perspective that is. That is not the perspective of Christ, who says that the unrighteous dead suffer the torments of flames in Hades.

 

[Bladerunner]

What I find interesting in the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus is the fact that the only reason given for the rich man to be in hell is that he was rich. The only reason that Lazarus was in paradise in Abraham's bosom is because he was poor and received evil things.

All this is complete nonsense in the light of the New Covenant as to be saved has absolutely nothing to do with whether one has money or not in this earth.

To the Jewish mind - being rich was the sign of being blessed of God which they get from the law of Moses. Being poor and sick meant that you were cursed according to the Law.

I believe one of the aspects of this parable/story is to show the fallacy of the Jewish belief system brought in this earth by God to reveal the effects from eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that grace is how God really deals with people.

While I can see your point, I do not see where the new covenant with Israel has anything to do with it. This passage like many others tells us about the area in question (Hell) where the rich man is, regardless of why he got there although he is told by Abram why he is there and why he cannot come over to the Paradise side. The Beggar we are told only that he is in Paradise so he must have believed in God. Rem. Abram, Noah and others all sinned in the eyes of God but He described them as perfect and righteous. So I take the beggar in that frame of thought. Since the Parable tells me nothing more, I cannot make something out of it.

The rich man is the same way. He died, (but how, why, etc.) It does tell us that he is conscious, that he can feel Pain (he is tormented by the flame), He has cognitive thinking because he wanted Lazarus to dip his finger in cool water for his tongue. After Abram tells him that he cannot send Lazarus over, the rich man remembers his family and mourns over them that they too are following in his path. (this could be part of why some had tears that God wipes away in rev 22.) They are aware of those lost?????? just a thought>>>>>>

Now what about the places......Hades, Sheol (Hell) vs Paradise. Both Hold souls.. Paradise holds souls that are eventually as we see later destined for Heaven while the souls of Hades are destined for the White Throne Judgement.

We know they are separated by some sort of chasm preventing them from going to and fro between the two places.

We know they can talk between the two so the distance of the chasm is not very wide.

We know that Hades is tormenting the souls within by Flames. I might add, the way it is written, he is standing within the flame itself.

We know nothing much of Paradise from this parable other than that it is a pleasant place for the souls of those dead to be.

Later in other passages, we know Jesus' soul spend three days here in Paradise and took all those in there with him when he left.


I apologize to keep going on but if you look closely a verse can tell you a lot.

as far as the Law goes, rem Jesus healed a lot of those sick poor retches and

as for the Rich Man...Mat 10:25 comes to mind:"25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Have a good day

Blade