The Doctrine of Hell: Under Attack

[UnderGrace]

Is it really about an unrepentant life?

Or is Jesus foreshadowing how people who did not believe the prophets will certainly not be persuaded even if someone comes back from the dead...that someone being Him!!

Jesus was constantly telling people in so many different ways what was going to happen to Him and why, yet people always missed the point of the story making it about something else entirely.

Hi Grace,

Not true. Read towards the end. The rich man lived an unrepentant life. And Jews were to care for the poor, something which he didn't do.

And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[UnderGrace]

It is indeed a parable/story.

In reality could a single drop of water be enough to help someone suffering in flames?

According to this story we would be able to see others in torment, could any of us, seeing others in torment be able to enjoy our eternal life?

What kind of God would have a set up like this, where we see others suffer?

What I find interesting in the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus is the fact that the only reason given for the rich man to be in hell is that he was rich. The only reason that Lazarus was in paradise in Abraham's bosom is because he was poor and received evil things.

All this is complete nonsense in the light of the New Covenant as to be saved has absolutely nothing to do with whether one has money or not in this earth.

To the Jewish mind - being rich was the sign of being blessed of God which they get from the law of Moses. Being poor and sick meant that you were cursed according to the Law.

I believe one of the aspects of this parable/story is to show the fallacy of the Jewish belief system brought in this earth by God to reveal the effects from eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that grace is how God really deals with people.

 

[Bladerunner]

Is it really about an unrepentant life?

Or is Jesus foreshadowing how people who did not believe the prophets will certainly not be persuaded even if someone comes back from the dead...that someone being Him!!

Jesus was constantly telling people in so many different ways what was going to happen to Him and why, yet people always missed the point of the story making it about something else entirely.

Yes UnderGrace, you are right........ The nation of Israel was placed in diasporia and Blinded for simply not knowing that he would show up on that faithful day (April 6, 32 AD).

If this is the case, with all the abilities we have and they did not, what is He going to do to those that do not study the prophecies or simply do not try and/or find out.?????????????????????a horrifying thought.

 

[dcontroversal]

Had you taken the time to see what Vine's Expository Dictionary had to say about "perish" and "destroy/destruction", it would have cleared up everything for you.

The bottom line is that "death" means both physical death and the second death in Rom 6:23, so you simply need to understand what these terms mean.

First death = the separation of the soul and spirit from the body

Second death = the eternal separation of the sinner from God in the Lake of Fire

When people quote "the dead know nothing" they forget whose perspective that is. That is not the perspective of Christ, who says that the unrighteous dead suffer the torments of flames in Hades.

Amen and the dead not knowing anything is indicative of them knowing what is happening on this earth, not them being unaware of anything.....

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is it really about an unrepentant life?

Or is Jesus foreshadowing how people who did not believe the prophets will certainly not be persuaded even if someone comes back from the dead...that someone being Him!!

Jesus was constantly telling people in so many different ways what was going to happen to Him and why, yet people always missed the point of the story making it about something else entirely.

Well if you take the entire narrative into account, this is not an either/or situation and there are multiple lessons within this brief narrative, including the fact the if people would not believe the Old Testament, neither would they believe that Christ had indeed risen from the dead (even though it was the most stupendous miracles in human history). We know that the Jews did not believe, but let us not forget that even His apostles were having a very hard time believing that Christ had risen from the dead.

Our focus here in discussing the doctrine of Hell is to (1) establish that Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable (an earthly story with a heavenly meaning), (2) it clearly reveals that those who die are fully conscious in Hades, (3) that the unsaved or unrighteous dead are in great suffering and torment but there is no second chance, and (4) people should believe the Gospel BEFORE they die and can do nothing after that. Of course, we have other Scriptures to show that those in Hades will face a final judgment at the Great White Throne.

 

[JaumeJ]

What, pray tell, is a doctrine of hell?

All who know the Word, also ae well aware there is no hell.

There will be a lake of fire for the condemned to it, but hell is a word derived from a goddes, Hölle, the goddess of the dead...there is no such thing.

The name for where the dead go in the Word is originall Sheol or the pit.

Now people die and sleep until the resurrection...then they will be brought back from the dust.

Doctrine of hell? I have heard a lot, but this one is over the top.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What, pray tell, is a doctrine of hell?

All who know the Word, also ae well aware there is no hell.

There will be a lake of fire for the condemned to it, but hell is a word derived from a goddes, Hölle, the goddess of the dead...there is no such thing.

The name for where the dead go in the Word is originall Sheol or the pit.

Now people die and sleep until the resurrection...then they will be brought back from the dust.

Doctrine of hell? I have heard a lot, but this one is over the top.

It depends on the Greek word representing Hell. Hades in the Greek and Sheol in the Hebrew, is the place of departed spirits. It is only the body that is referred to as sleeping, as we have many scriptures which demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death.

There is no such thing as soul-sleep, where the body, soul and spirit are unconscious until the resurrection. When the believer dies, their spirit immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor.5:6, Phil.1:23). It is the body that is referred to as sleeping and will be resurrected when the Lord gathers the church.

For those who are not in Christ, when they die their spirit/soul goes into Sheol/Hades in torment (Luke 16:19) until they are resurrected at the great white throne judgment and are judged and then thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:11-15). We just have too many scriptures that demonstrate conscious awareness after death:

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[SUP]e[/SUP] were killed just as they had been." - Rev.6:9-11

The group above seem to be pretty conscious and aware for dead guys.

"But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Since both Jesus and the man crucified with him both died that very day, how could Jesus say to him "today you will be with me in paradise?" We know that Jesus' body was put in the tomb, so he was referring to the fact that both of their spirits/souls would be in that place of paradise, which was the same place where Abraham and Lazarus went to. And no, the comma is not in the wrong place.

"And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth​ could open the scroll or even look inside it. "

Under the earth? This is referring to those who are under the earth, i.e. those spirits in Sheol/Hades who are in torment until the great white throne judgment.

"Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. - Luke 9:28-32

We know that Elijah did not die, buy Moses certainly did and according to the scripture, he seemed to be pretty aware and conscious, the two them speaking with Jesus about his departure.

Then we have account of the rich man and Lazarus, which states that both men died and their spirits were found in Sheol/Hades, the rich man in torment and Lazarus in an area of paradise which was separated by a great chasm from the place of torment.

 

[JaumeJ]

Hades is the kingdom of the dead in Greek mythology.

Having studied linguistics at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, when I pass on what I know it is with some qualification.

Hell is not in the Tanakh. The first converts to teh faith of Abraham leanrned from the Tankh only

If your goal is to paganize the Word as taught by Jesus and teh Twelve Apostles, go for your goal, but
it is a perversion of the teachings of the Word.

It forms jsut a tiny part of what is known as teh apostasy.

You are correct if your manner of changinglanguage is accepted by some, but ony for some

I am not going to attempt to convince anyone who cannot discern etymologies of words
as having perverted the Word of God from the actual reality of our forefathers' experience.

At this point I confess I cannot be labeled a christian for I am of the faith of Abraham thanks to
Jesus the Messiah.

As long as you and your people are jsut christian, you cannever understand how we are of teh Israel of God.

No........I cannot be named Hebrwe Roots, Jews for Jesus or the like, I am of the faith of Abraham as taught
by our Lord ans Savior, Jesus Christ...or do you call HIm Yeshua.

 

[JaumeJ]

When the last Trump sounds from God, Himself, and Jesus appears on the clouds, He is going to send His angels to gather first those who are asleep in the dust and then those who are yet in the flesh.

Where some people get that we got directly into th Presence of Jesus Christ and not to sleep and rest first, I have no idea. Even in Revelation this is mentioned with those under the alter asking how long....

Again, as pertaining to the doctrine of hell, I have given tha etyimology of the word, hell. For most people today it represents either the lake of fire or for others sheol. This also may be true for the word, hades the mythological kingdom.

The truth and the fact is, the name used in the Word until after the Greek incursion into the teachingsof the Tanakh and the Gospels was always sheol or the pit.

We have gone very far away from our historic roots of Jesus, Yeshua, coming in the flesh as a Jew. This is why so much ismissing or replaced with myth in the paganized version of christianity.

The true Christianity recognizes our forefathers and all they did, and saved for us to learn in the Word........

Most who claim to believe balk when told Abraham was the first to hear the Gospel of Jesus christ. These same are not even aware Abraham is teh first to prophesy Jesus Christ being the Sacrifice for sin.

These same folks put no value in the fact that Bethlehem may be translated as the House of Bread, even though Jesus teaches us He is the Bread from heaven. Just this alone should tell all what the breaking of bread truly means, but most dfo not.

No one has to be like today's Jews of Judaism to believe, but they do have to be Jews by the translation of the word (JUIdah.) That is "praisers of God." If you are not a praiser of God, then not to worry, you are not a Jew.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Where some people get that we got directly into th Presence of Jesus Christ and not to sleep and rest first, I have no idea. Even in Revelation this is mentioned with those under the alter asking how long.

Regarding those under the altar, I think that you missed the point, in that they are having a conversation and are given robes to wear, which would demonstrate that they are conscious and aware.

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

Therefore, when the body dies, the spirit is released and for the believer, goes to be in the presence of the Lord, conscious and aware. For the unrighteous person who dies, their spirit goes into Sheol/Hades in torment until the great white throne judgment. Sleep is only in reference to the body, not the soul/spirit. I've already given you examples of the spirits of the dead being conscious and aware.

 

[Ahwatukee]

When the last Trump sounds from God, Himself, and Jesus appears on the clouds, He is going to send His angels to gather first those who are asleep in the dust and then those who are yet in the flesh.

When the last trumpet sounds, the Lord will descend and all of those spirits/souls that will have died and gone to be in his presence from the beginning of the church will return with him, where at which time their spirits/souls will be reunited with their resurrected bodies, which will have been sleeping. Those believers who are still alive when the resurrection takes place, will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. From here the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house as promised in John 14:1-3

 

[JaumeJ]

The robes given us are the deed of the Holy Spirit while serving God in this age.

There are so many who for who knows what reason actually believe Jesus Christ
taught in Greek; now how insane is that?

If taking a Greek into the temple was cause for punitive measures against aJew
don't these people thing teaching in a gentile tongue the wonders
of Yahweh would be something of a considered blasphemy.

The land that was once Israel at the time of our Lord was occupied by Rome. It is curious how Greek was adopted soon after the ascent of our Lord to the Right Hand of Power.


Paul is credited with raising the "church" to the level of no longer being a sect but a true religion. This would have been the first time this was true for beleivers of Jesus Christ ever, and for His ancestors since Israel was never a religion but a theocracy made by God.

Just as teh first Israel, all who believe Jesus Christ, King, should be aware that no matter what denomination they call themselves, if a person truly beieves Jesus Christ,,, he is of teh Israel of God, a Hebrew and a Jew.

Since Christianit became a vehicle for the outright hatred of Jews, it was a simple task to steer teh innocents towards the paganization that began immediately after our Lord' first presence here.

Why do people not understand that when it was said, apostasy shall abound and it already is here, that it was true, and more prevalent than ever now?

Peopl would rather show off their linguistic prowess in Greek than to permit the confession that Greece had nothing to do with the first coming of our Lord.

Go ahead, teach about hades, the mythological place of the dead, as though it is from the Patriarchal influences of our faith, but it has nothing to do with it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Undergrace,

In reality could a single drop of water be enough to help someone suffering in flames?

No, it couldn't help someone suffering in flames, but in that situation, any relief would be welcome to the one suffering.

According to this story we would be able to see others in torment, could any of us, seeing others in torment be able to enjoy our eternal life?

People in heaven would not be able to see people in Hades/Sheol, which is under the earth. When the rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus afar off, the scripture states that there was a great chasm fixed in between that place of paradise and the place of torment, which was on the other side. Some have erroneously interpreted that Abraham and Lazarus were in heaven, but the scripture puts them all under the earth in the same vicinity, both places separated by that great chasm.

Also, while Sheol/Hades is under the earth, the lake of fire is in a completely different location, which is never revealed.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The robes given us are the deed of the Holy Spirit while serving God in this age.

There are so many who for who knows what reason actually believe Jesus Christ
taught in Greek; now how insane is that?

Hi JaumeJ,

You are missing the point! These are the spirits/souls of those who have died and are under the altar in heaven. They are conscious and aware, having a conversation and are being giving robes to wear. In other words, they have dies and not sleeping.

 

[beta]

You are quite right. "The love of Christ constraineth us". As long as preachers do not whitewash the doctrine of Hell, there should be a proper balance between the grace of God for repentant sinners and the wrath of God against unrepentant sinners.

There is proper balance between life and death....and it is NOT eternal torment.
The wicked who refuse correction and are unrepentant will be 'ashes under the feet of the saints=burnt up, Mal 4v3....and shall be 'as if they had never been.

 

[JaumeJ]

They were beheadeaded in the Tribulation......

All who believe suffer for Christ at some time or another, since His departure.

I see making a reference to those under the altar has rased a deflection of the points being made.

All, included those under the altar are awating the resurrection, do you understand this?

All points to Jesus Christ......Yeshua......all.

I am not ashamed or afraid to admit I am ignorant of much, unlike the sholars of the Word who look for hairs to split every time someone mentions a passage or event of the Word from understanding what he or she is sharing.

Yes, I do not understand what I was saying or what I mean. If this is how you like it, so be it.

Jesus christ is always my top line, bottom line and reference in the love of mankind, especially those who hear Him.

Hi JaumeJ,

You are missing the point! These are the spirits/souls of those who have died and are under the altar in heaven. They are conscious and aware, having a conversation and are being giving robes to wear. In other words, they have dies and not sleeping.[/COLOR]

 

[valiant]

What part of the following do you not understand, reject or deny....

The smoke of their torment ascending before the throne forever?

Look at the context. This is talking in terms of Roman methods of the questioning of men before judges. That is why the Lamb and the angels are there. They do the questioning,

The men are being examined by torture, but only 'the smoke of their torment' arises for ever and ever. Always the means of punishment is what lasts for ever, not the consciousness of the men themselves.

Do you really think that the Lamb and His angels will watch gloatingly over the eternal torture of men, some of whom died very young? You might, they would never do so.

And the reason they are judged is because they never ceased (find no rest day or night) worshipping the beast (compare the same phrase in chapter 4).

There is no hint of people being kept alive to face torture eternally. It is sinful man who thinks like that.

 

[JaumeJ]

Where do you read or understand those under the altear are awake in always conversant with the Lord? Why do you suppose they are waiting?

As for your verses from Paul' testimony and witness of himself, I have read and understood this for many decades. Now I am obliged to use text-to-voice, but it is the same.

WE will be just like Christ, but we will not be He. This is to come. Do you honestly believe we will need our bodies once with Jesus in the Kingdom? I cannot say for certain since no one is privvy to this mystery.

I see you are adpt at reading text and giving it a total explanation, but for the life of me, I do not know if the persons under the altar are always in conversation with the Lord, It seems strange that when they were given teh robes they were instructed to bo back and wait.........but you know. This is disturbing.

When the last trumpet sounds, the Lord will descend and all of those spirits/souls that will have died and gone to be in his presence from the beginning of the church will return with him, where at which time their spirits/souls will be reunited with their resurrected bodies, which will have been sleeping. Those believers who are still alive when the resurrection takes place, will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. From here the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house as promised in John 14:1-3
[/COLOR]

 

[valiant]

Had you taken the time to see what Vine's Expository Dictionary had to say about "perish" and "destroy/destruction", it would have cleared up everything for you.

I prefer to see how the Greeks used the term themselves in the context of the immortality of the soul. And THEY used apollumi to mean that the dead person eased to exist, as opposed to the idea of living for ever. I can quote you many examples.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Where do you read or understand those under the altar are awake in always conversant with the Lord? Why do you suppose they are waiting?

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been."

Well for one, they are having a conversation with the Lord and their concern is how long before they are avenged in regards to those on the earth who killed them. So the fact that they are speaking with the Lord and are given robes to wear would be a good indication that in their spirits they are conscious and aware.

And let's not forget about the other examples, such as Moses and Elijah appearing with Christ when he was transfigured, that Jesus said to the man crucified with him "today you will be with me in paradise." You have to be conscious and aware to experience paradise. Then there is the rich man and Lazarus both having died and yet their spirits being found in Sheol/Hades.

The examples of conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death is found in many places in scripture.