The False Doctrine of OSAS

[eternally-gratefull]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. As for me, the misunderstanding is that people will say that obedience is not necessary, but yet will say they believe in obedience. The question which continuously pops into my head is always, 'what if one does not REMAIN obedient, what then?' I am not asking this to be answered but giving insight as to the dilemma which keeps me asking that question. If one does not remain obedient to His guidance, what is the Lord to do? LOL, now you got me asking questions to ponder again Anyhow, this is my way of thinking and naturally the way I see things. So, if obedience is willingness to follow, how then do we loose freewill to not follow? Let me stop here and please people, these are not questions I am asking to be answered, just showing you my deductive reasoning.

As to the rest, Sister, we should always wait, and continue to wait, upon God's Wisdom to be spoken to us before we respond (yes to those who will point this way, I know, even I myself do not always wait upon the wisdom of God).

I understand what you mean here. And I think the answer can be seen with just one question.

How obedient is obedient enough. Or as a book in my church is titled. How good is good enough.

if we can answer this question. we could then know how disobedient is not good enough.. The problem is, those who say obedience is necessary can not answer this question. thus what we have is a salvation based on an unknown. And since it is unknown. who can ever know they have eternal life? Yet scripture is clear. we can not only know we have it, we us this knowledge of assurance to continue to have faith in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eg, why condemn me, just stop, I am not condemning you, am I, just the slippery-slope doctrine of OSAS.

When you condemn it, you condemn me.

 

[GreenNnice]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. As for me, the misunderstanding is that people will say that obedience is not necessary, but yet will say they believe in obedience. The question which continuously pops into my head is always, 'what if one does not REMAIN obedient, what then?' I am not asking this to be answered but giving insight as to the dilemma which keeps me asking that question. If one does not remain obedient to His guidance, what is the Lord to do? LOL, now you got me asking questions to ponder again Anyhow, this is my way of thinking and naturally the way I see things. So, if obedience is willingness to follow, how then do we loose freewill to not follow? Let me stop here and please people, these are not questions I am asking to be answered, just showing you my deductive reasoning.

As to the rest, Sister, we should always wait, and continue to wait, upon God's Wisdom to be spoken to us before we respond (yes to those who will point this way, I know, even I myself do not always wait upon the wisdom of God).

Very, very, evocative (provacative, too, cee, so,cwatch out, dove, I mean, love )

Seriously, cee, and, I was being 'peace' serious to you, Christbro, but, the OSAS serpentine response (I was going to say 'serpenty' but mari , the grammar police would becall over that like maggots on a dead animal ) would be from Scripture, cookie-cut from the verses, forget where, but NT somewhere , that say to this paraphrased effect, 'Even if I become unfaithful , God remains faithful ' and so He cannot unsaved us, or, will not unsaved us might be better choice of words , OSAS might even appreciate my not telling our God what He can and cannot do, yikes!, too, I get the creeps running down my spine as if poison is coarsing through my veins suddenly, for no reason at all.

Anyway, Romans 3 is good to refute eg's broken record usage of this verse for what you said about disobedience and we all know that we disobey we don't enter His rest in Heaven. That's a given, if you are going to be in Heaven, don't you want to be like you are on earth--Loving things of God? And, yes, as I said, those that run their race obediently to God's 'spirited' leading can have REST while running that 'through faith' race, .

I listed Romans 3 yesterday, the Lord leads, but it was for a different point, here are the verses again, which cover 'wasn't saved in the first place' venomic OSAS doctrine too, a 'righteous person becomes wayward, becomes condemned.' Yes, this person was saved. Righteous=right standing with God=saved.

3 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
They are God's butvtyen in theirclife are choosing to do unrighteousness. God says don't do that, for you will be condemned
“So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” a

5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved.

 

[GreenNnice]

Note: This line below laced between verse 4 and 5 is me speaking:

They are God's but then in their life are choosing to do unrighteousness. God says don't do that, for you will be condemned

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very, very, evocative (provacative, too, cee, so,cwatch out, dove, I mean, love )

Seriously, cee, and, I was being 'peace' serious to you, Christbro, but, the OSAS serpentine response (I was going to say 'serpenty' but mari , the grammar police would becall over that like maggots on a dead animal ) would be from Scripture, cookie-cut from the verses, forget where, but NT somewhere , that say to this paraphrased effect, 'Even if I become unfaithful , God remains faithful ' and so He cannot unsaved us, or, will not unsaved us might be better choice of words , OSAS might even appreciate my not telling our God what He can and cannot do, yikes!, too, I get the creeps running down my spine as if poison is coarsing through my veins suddenly, for no reason at all.

Anyway, Romans 3 is good to refute eg's broken record usage of this verse for what you said about disobedience and we all know that we disobey we don't enter His rest in Heaven. That's a given, if you are going to be in Heaven, don't you want to be like you are on earth--Loving things of God? And, yes, as I said, those that run their race obediently to God's 'spirited' leading can have REST while running that 'through faith' race, .

I listed Romans 3 yesterday, the Lord leads, but it was for a different point, here are the verses again, which cover 'wasn't saved in the first place' venomic OSAS doctrine too, a 'righteous person becomes wayward, becomes condemned.' Yes, this person was saved. Righteous=right standing with God=saved.

3 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” a

5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved.

Let me help you out there my friend..

Paul was speaking to people like you. WHo declare i am still a sinner. And I am not good enough to earn my salvation. After the wonderful verses you posted, he goes on.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

So why do you think you are better than anyone else? When as Paul says, we are ALL UNDER SIN

Paul does not stop here though, He goes on!!


19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Paul tells us why all those wonderful commands were given. To rpove to the whole world that we are all under sin, For you see the law condemns, It does not save. Yet you want to put us back under law. Why would you do this? Paul makes it clear. the law condemns. because NO ONE CAN FULFILL THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW.



Yet paul goes on, and PROVES the very same venomic OSAS doctrine you so hate, Is true and from God himself!



21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness


1. Our righteousness is not found in the law. it is found in Christ, who was given to us.
2. It can only be found and given to us in Faith (not works)
3. We are justified freely, we can;t earn it.

4. We are saved, justified, given eternal life, based on redemption (Christ bought our freedom, justification and salvation wiht his blood)
4. Christ was a propitiation, Which satisfied the wrath of God on our behalf. And because of it, God is satisfied that payment was made, paid in full. And we will not see his wrath because of it.


Why do you preach against this greenie? The very passage you declared destroyed OSAS actually teaches it. You would see this. if you would stop reading part of it, and read the whole thing so you could get context. Picking and choosing what part of a passage to use to support your OWN BELIEF SYSTEM is dangerous. As we just proved here.

 

[cfultz3]

I understand what you mean here. And I think the answer can be seen with just one question.

How obedient is obedient enough. Or as a book in my church is titled. How good is good enough.

if we can answer this question. we could then know how disobedient is not good enough.. The problem is, those who say obedience is necessary can not answer this question. thus what we have is a salvation based on an unknown. And since it is unknown. who can ever know they have eternal life? Yet scripture is clear. we can not only know we have it, we us this knowledge of assurance to continue to have faith in Christ.

I am in a big conversation atm......give me a moment please

 

[GreenNnice]

Let me help you out there my friend..

Paul was speaking to people like you. WHo declare i am still a sinner. And I am not good enough to earn my salvation. After the wonderful verses you posted, he goes on.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

So why do you think you are better than anyone else? When as Paul says, we are ALL UNDER SIN

Paul does not stop here though, He goes on!!


19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Paul tells us why all those wonderful commands were given. To rpove to the whole world that we are all under sin, For you see the law condemns, It does not save. Yet you want to put us back under law. Why would you do this? Paul makes it clear. the law condemns. because NO ONE CAN FULFILL THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW.



Yet paul goes on, and PROVES the very same venomic OSAS doctrine you so hate, Is true and from God himself!



21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness


1. Our righteousness is not found in the law. it is found in Christ, who was given to us.
2. It can only be found and given to us in Faith (not works)
3. We are justified freely, we can;t earn it.

4. We are saved, justified, given eternal life, based on redemption (Christ bought our freedom, justification and salvation wiht his blood)
4. Christ was a propitiation, Which satisfied the wrath of God on our behalf. And because of it, God is satisfied that payment was made, paid in full. And we will not see his wrath because of it.


Why do you preach against this greenie? The very passage you declared destroyed OSAS actually teaches it. You would see this. if you would stop reading part of it, and read the whole thing so you could get context. Picking and choosing what part of a passage to use to support your OWN BELIEF SYSTEM is dangerous. As we just proved here.

JUST TRYING TO HELP YOU OUT.

eg, saying God can't be unfaithful to you no matter what is the SCARIEZT piece of your doctrine I can think of, hmmm, besides....

they were never saved in the first place
I can't lose my salvation. It was never mine to begin with. Hoe can I lose something I never had !
Even if I fall away, don't matter, God MUST remain faithful, I am saved no matter what !
I am sealed with Holy Spirit (seals were broken in Revelation, is God going to just keep His finger on the seal so you can't leave Him?), He won't ever leave me, He promises. (But do you promise to never leave Him. You are human, quit putting Ei much faith in YOUR spirit, your humanness ! Dumb sheep

Hmm, guess I could think occasion few more (I make fun at my quip, not mocking )

Works burned up but they saved, eblven so by fire (eg, ya wanna be saved by fire ? ) Even in Heaven, that sounds scary? I WANT all God gives me, I am human and do not price after my mansion, but, Truth is, it is THERE waiting for me, Scripture says. Different sized trophies in Heaven, this ain't no Little League baseball championship, eg. Your eternity, my eternity !

 

[cfultz3]

I understand what you mean here. And I think the answer can be seen with just one question.

How obedient is obedient enough. Or as a book in my church is titled. How good is good enough.

if we can answer this question. we could then know how disobedient is not good enough.. The problem is, those who say obedience is necessary can not answer this question. thus what we have is a salvation based on an unknown. And since it is unknown. who can ever know they have eternal life? Yet scripture is clear. we can not only know we have it, we us this knowledge of assurance to continue to have faith in Christ.

EG,

This is my answer to that question. Bear with me, this is how I communicate.

How obedient is obedient enough. Or as a book in my church is titled. How good is good enough.

The only obedience necessary is a willingness to follow Him in His footsteps. (come and follow behind me).

This being so, at what point when one is no longer willingly following God and is not hearkening to God to revert from the path he is walking which is not leading to the Light, does God, in His Wisdom, decide that such an one is only producing thorns and biers and say he has abandoned his righteousness (our righteousness now is in Christ)?

So, I guess I am saying, at what point does one become apostatized is decided by God.

As long as one is being (present participle) led by God, then one is hearkening to Him and that is the obedience I am speaking of: a willingness to follow Him as He leads.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

JUST TRYING TO HELP YOU OUT.

eg, saying God can't be unfaithful to you no matter what is the SCARIEZT piece of your doctrine I can think of, hmmm, besides....

they were never saved in the first place
I can't lose my salvation. It was never mine to begin with. Hoe can I lose something I never had !
Even if I fall away, don't matter, God MUST remain faithful, I am saved no matter what !
I am sealed with Holy Spirit (seals were broken in Revelation, is God going to just keep His finger on the seal so you can't leave Him?), He won't ever leave me, He promises. (But do you promise to never leave Him. You are human, quit putting Ei much faith in YOUR spirit, your humanness ! Dumb sheep

Hmm, guess I could think occasion few more

Works burned up but they saved, eblven so by fire (eg, ya wanna be saved by fire ? ) Even in Heaven, that sounds scary? I WANT all God gives me, I am human and do not price after my mansion, but, Truth is, it is THERE waiting for me, Scripture says. Different sized trophies in Heaven, this ain't no Little League baseball championship, eg. Your eternity, my eternity !

yeah it is your eternity. so why are you trusting yourself. a sinner. a mere human, a man who can not even be sinnless. To save yourself. And not trusting in the God of heaven. Who made promises to you based on his love and his faithfulness.

It is not hard. trust God or trust self?

as for me and my house. we will trust and serve the lord.

 

[cfultz3]

Let us all not forget: as long as Christ is the foundation we build on, we are saved nonetheless and rewarded accordingly. So, let it not be said that we destroyed another building material used upon that foundation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,

This is my answer to that question. Bear with me, this is how I communicate.

How obedient is obedient enough. Or as a book in my church is titled. How good is good enough.

The only obedience necessary is a willingness to follow Him in His footsteps. (come and follow behind me).

This being so, at what point when one is no longer willingly following God and is not hearkening to God to revert from the path he is walking which is not leading to the Light, does God, in His Wisdom, decide that such an one is only producing thorns and biers and say he has abandoned his righteousness (our righteousness now is in Christ)?

So, I guess I am saying, at what point does one become apostatized is decided by God.

As long as one is being (present participle) led by God, then one is hearkening to Him and that is the obedience I am speaking of: a willingness to follow Him as He leads.

then we can never know we have eternal life. for we can never know we are following God in a manor in which he will allow us in.

every one of us can look at other people who are more holy, more righteous, and doing more work than us. Every one of us can also look at others who are less of these same things.

thus begs the question. Who gets in and who gets out. Imagine being the person standing at the judgment seat of christ and finding out if he did just one more good deed, he would have made it. what Kind of god does this. this is why I reject a works based gospel based on my ability to do good. because God says I can KNOW I have eternal life. if my salvation is based on my works., I can never know I have anything. let alone have hope. because my hope is based on me, and not God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let us all not forget: as long as Christ is the foundation we build on, we are saved nonetheless and rewarded accordingly. So, let it not be said that we destroyed another building material used upon that foundation.

the foundation is Christ. His death, His ressurection, His redemption, His justification, His gift. If our foundation is based on our ability to be good enough, and follow Christ in some set way, our foundation will crumble. and we will fall.

 

[GreenNnice]

then we can never know we have eternal life. for we can never know we are following God in a manor in which he will allow us in.

every one of us can look at other people who are more holy, more righteous, and doing more work than us. Every one of us can also look at others who are less of these same things.

thus begs the question. Who gets in and who gets out. Imagine being the person standing at the judgment seat of christ and finding out if he did just one more good deed, he would have made it. what Kind of god does this. this is why I reject a works based gospel based on my ability to do good. because God says I can KNOW I have eternal life. if my salvation is based on my works., I can never know I have anything. let alone have hope. because my hope is based on me, and not God.

The Spirit knows, we are to be 'kept' by His power in us. This is through faith, eg. Again, not judging, not telling people they need to go do this, go have to do that, the Lord leads, but, no, neon, nix, for that is works , we are to live BY grace of God, but 'that' is through faith

 

[GreenNnice]

the foundation is Christ. His death, His ressurection, His redemption, His justification, His gift. If our foundation is based on our ability to be good enough, and follow Christ in some set way, our foundation will crumble. and we will fall.

We almost agree so I 'liked' your post, no, we are just to let Him perfect us to His perfect 'goodness, eg '

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Spirit knows, we are to be 'kept' by His power in us. This is through faith,veg. Again, not judging, not telling people they need to go Di this, that, mix for that is works , we are to live BY grace of God, but 'that' is through faith

the fact is, WE WILL BE KEPT BY HIS POWER IN US. Not we ARE TO BE.. for this would be like saying Gods power does not have the ability to keep us.

God told peter. I WILL MAKE YOU FISHERS of men. He did not say, I will help you make yourself a fisher.

so why do you want to make yourself something, when God said HE WILL MAKE YOU SOMETHING.

why deny the power of God?

as jesus said.

This is Love, Not that we loved him, but that he loved us, and sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Why do you want to try to redeem yourself?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We almost agree so I 'liked' your post, no, we are just to let Him perfect us to His perfect 'goodness, eg '

We don't even have to let him. Why? He who begun a good work in us WILL CONTINUE TO DO IT. All we have to do is have faith in him, and HE WILL DO IT.

 

[cfultz3]

the foundation is Christ. His death, His ressurection, His redemption, His justification, His gift. If our foundation is based on our ability to be good enough, and follow Christ in some set way, our foundation will crumble. and we will fall.

Your foundation is faith alone.

My foundation is faith without works is dead.

We each use material to build upon that foundation of Christ.

Let us each know we have salvation.

Let us each know we are rewarded accordingly.

I know as well as you, Christ is my Savior, and by that faith alone I am saved.

If we both are saved on faith alone, then let us be fruitful as God leads us to be so that through being co-participants with Him, we will have treasures in Heaven which will not corrode.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your foundation is faith alone.

My foundation is faith without works is dead.

In reality, these both say the same thing. because if one does not have faith, they will not do any work. Thus it is still faith alone.

We each use material to build upon that foundation of Christ.

if it is not faith alone. but our works. then we are basing our foundation in self, which means we are taking the cornerstone with which the foundation is laid, and making it a flawed foundation, and not the perfect stone which is Christ.

Let us each know we have salvation.

Let us each know we are rewarded accordingly.

If one is not saved, they will not get a reward. Salvation is a gift. Those who are saved are given rewards for their work.

If your trying to earn a gift. the gift stops being a gift.

I know as well as you, Christ is my Savior, and by that faith alone I am saved.

If we both are saved on faith alone, then let us be fruitful as God leads us to be so that through being co-participants with Him, we will have treasures in Heaven which will not corrode.

I hope you believe this. and if you di, you know you can never be cast out. because God said whoever comes to me, i will never cast out.

 

[cfultz3]

then we can never know we have eternal life. for we can never know we are following God in a manor in which he will allow us in. -- My brother, we are given a lively (a living (a reality of the actuality of existence)) Hope which assures us of our salvation. We are given the evidence (testimony) of the Christ and of God. If He is the Light before us guiding us, then we are assured by Him of our everlasting destination. It is by following Him that we know we are being led in a manner in which He will allow us in His rest and our rest.

every one of us can look at other people who are more holy, more righteous, and doing more work than us. Every one of us can also look at others who are less of these same things. -- it is never about who is holier or more righteous or more active, it is only about being willing to be led by Him.

thus begs the question. Who gets in and who gets out. -- those who depend on God to be led home through their faith, seeing that faith alone is a means for salvation. But who can be led with a faith which is not active (a dead faith)(not saying yours is a dead faith, just pondering here)? A Faith which says, 'God, lead me to the promise land. I have faith in you to led me and will not doubt you as they did in the wilderness and fell.' This is what I am saying about obedience: trusting Him to show you the path to walk on so that you can get to the promised land as He did with the Hebrews. Trust Him in His leading you home.

Imagine being the person standing at the judgment seat of christ and finding out if he did just one more good deed, he would have made it. -- I am not saying that it is about doing goods deeds to earn salvation, salvation is obtained by faith alone, that we agree. All I am saying is that do we let it die or do we cultivate it?

what Kind of god does this. this is why I reject a works based gospel based on my ability to do good. because God says I can KNOW I have eternal life. if my salvation is based on my works., I can never know I have anything. let alone have hope. because my hope is based on me, and not God. -- I agree with you. Salvation is not based on works but faith alone. But the one who did nothing with his faith is the same one who will be thrown out into outer darkness. And if our faith is active, building upon Christ as our foundation, then we rest assured that we are at least saved by that faith of ours and need only to be concerned about our treasure in Heaven. You believe in Christ and rest in His promises. I believe in Christ and rest in His promises. The only difference is our building material. So, when it comes to judging the value of that material, let us all consider that God is the one who will test that material and will reward accordingly.

..............................

 

[GreenNnice]

Your foundation is faith alone.

My foundation is faith without works is dead.

We each use material to build upon that foundation of Christ.

Let us each know we have salvation.

Let us each know we are rewarded accordingly.

I know as well as you, Christ is my Savior, and by that faith alone I am saved.

If we both are saved on faith alone, then let us be fruitful as God leads us to be so that through being co-participants with Him, we will have treasures in Heaven which will not corrode.

Beautifully 'led' said, cee.

Let's see what Satan does with that one. No, eg, you are not he.

We fight against powers and principalities of this world, NOT flesh and blood, Scripture tells us