Those that God gave Christ

[shroom2]

One of Shroom's favorite scriptures, 2 Pet 3:9, To stay in context of who Peter is speaking to we have to go back to chapter 1:1 where it tells us that he is talking to "them that have obtained like precious faith" , so he is addressing those who are already saved eternally, and even includes himself in his warning in chapter 3 verse 9, by using the word "us-ward". He says that he is not willing that none of them "perish"(lose their fellowship with God) but that all(all of those he is talking to) should come to repentance(repentance being a work of man, and eternal salvation is not by works of man).

God requires us to repent and believe. He wants all men to be saved, but He will not force it on anyone.

2 Pet 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[shroom2]

Never underestimate the power of Christ's work on the cross. Eternal salvation was accomplished for everyone that Christ died for, which were those that God gave him, John 6:37-40. His shed blood on the cross covered those that he died for, Past, Present, and Future. Those that were saved were saved by God's grace and not of anything that man can or will do.

Christ died for everyone. Anyone who chooses can come to salvation.

 

[Forest]

Ignatius of Antioch- Died between 98 and 110 AD. Ignatius was likely a disciple of both Apostles Peter and John and was martyred (Ignatius was condemned to fight wild beasts in the Coliseum) in Rome. Seven of his letters have survived to this day; he is generally considered to be one of the Apostolic Fathers (the earliest authoritative group of the Church Fathers):

• • If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice.
  
  
  

God did not cause Adam to disobey Him; otherwise man wouldn’t have been created in God’s image. The Bible tells us that God hates sin and that sin can’t enter heaven. Solomon wrote

• This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes. Ecclesiastes 7:29 NIV
  

We are all born into this world by a natural birth and are by nature children of wrath. Eph 2:1-5, And you hath he quickened, who were dead(spiritually dead, as natural men)in trespasses and sins; Wherein in times past ye walked according to the course of this world(as natural men), according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience; among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others, But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead(spiritually dead) in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.)

 

[shroom2]

We are all born into this world by a natural birth and are by nature children of wrath. Eph 2:1-5, And you hath he quickened, who were dead(spiritually dead, as natural men)in trespasses and sins; Wherein in times past ye walked according to the course of this world(as natural men), according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience; among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others, But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead(spiritually dead) in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.)

Yes. He did all that when we believed.

 

[Forest]

so if people even think or speak of God, he thinks they are saved?

wow, that opens the door for lictencious false doctrine right there. the Pharisees would have qualified in spades.....

we'll see what he says when he comes back then....

My understanding of 1 Cor 2:14, Beginning in verse 11, For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?(the natural man know the things of a man). even so the things of God knoweth no man(the natural man), but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world(spirit of the natural man), but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's (natural man's) wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual(the natural man cannot compare spiritual things because he does not have the Spirit). But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Now if the natural man cannot discern spiritual things, how can he descern God because God is a spirit? Eph 2:1-5 tells us how we were as natural men and how we become spiritual men.

 

[Forest]

You continually leave out that God has given man free will. It is God's will for all men to be saved, and He has made salvation available through Christ to any person who will choose to believe on Christ. Obviously, not all have or will choose to believe, so not all will be saved.

Forest, you may find a little more support for your Calvinistic beliefs here on this forum, if that makes you feel better.

Shroom, you keep saying that I do not believe that man has free will. I don't know how Calvin believes on this, but I believe God gave man a free will to choose as he pleases, but the natural man will not choose to serve a siritual God because he cannot descern spiritual things. If it is God's will that all mankind is to be saved then all mankind will be saved because Dan4:35 declares that God accomplishes all his will. I just don't believe it is his will that all mankind be saved. Man's free will and the choices he makes are motivated either by the Spirit or by the flesh.

 

[AnandaHya]

Yes. He did all that when we believed.

no He did all of this so we might believe.

what about "dead in sin" is confusing?

Until God quickened the heart and convicted it of its sin and shone a light into your life you had nothing inside of you that even resembled belief.

it does not say by your faith you were made alive but by Grace through faith which is a gift from God. you didn't choose to be born, you don't choose to be born again. However you can choose to walk in the Spirit or in the flesh.


Ephesians 2

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

 

[tribesman]

Christ died for everyone. Anyone who chooses can come to salvation.

So the real savior is the almighty free will of man?

what about "dead in sin" is confusing?

Ephesians 2

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

That the sinner is dead in his sins is of course a huge stumblingblock for any arminian/synergist, since it eradicates their hope of boasting in self.

 

[Forest]

Matthew 9:9-13

9And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

10And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

11And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were LIVING when Jesus walked.

Matt 15:24, Christ was sent unto the lost sheep (if they are sheep, they are God's children already) of the house of Israel (Israel is a type of God's elect, he even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28). Those of God's people who do not have a knowledge of the truth are the lost sheep. There is a salvation (deliverance) when you come to an understanding of the truth, Rom 10.

 

[Forest]

Free will is an illusion.

Man has a free will, but his choices are influenced either by the Spirit or by the flesh. If he has not been born again his will is only influenced by the flesh.

 

[Forest]

no its not, its the forbidden fruit. you can choose to do your will or GOD's. You can choose to eat of the tree or Good and evil or from the tree of Life.

God places before people the choice of life or death, but most don't even see or hear. it is only be the grace of God that anyone does.


1 Corinthians 2

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ

God sets before us to choose from, life and death. Life in this verse is not eternel life but as aboundant life we can have here in this world by following his commandments and the death, death meaning a seperation from fellowship with God, not eternal death.

 

[tribesman]

Paul judged that those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are lost, even if they are zealous for God.

Whatever any person may claim of faith, works, holiness, experiences, miracles, conduct, piety etc, if that person is ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel, then that person is not saved.

Rom.1

[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Rom.9

[30] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[31] But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[32] Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[33] As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom.10

[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Forest]

This choice thing really makes me angry.

Is it God who Saves or is it people who saves themselves?

God has given man free will but not in the matter of his eternal salvation.

 

[Forest]

It is God's will for all men to be saved.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV)

There is a salvation in coming unto the knowledge of the truth, but it is a deliverance (salvation) we receive here in this world. Most of God's born again children do not have a knowledge of the truth.

 

[Forest]

Israel & 2knowhim

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV)

The kingdom of God in this verse does not mean eternal heaven, but it is refering to Christ's church, his kingdom. Look at the terriable things that David did and he is a man after God's own heart. Thats the beauty of how Christ erased our sins, as far as eternal life is concerned.

 

[Forest]

You only prove my point, with those scriptures,

That it is not of him who WILLETH or him who RUNNETH But God Who Shows Mercy.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thats true, but some, like Shroom, will not accept the plain truth.

 

[AnandaHya]

Christ died for everyone. Anyone who chooses can come to salvation.

yes Christ died for everyone but unless God draws them and gives them a NEW Heart they will NOT choose to hear or see His Truth. it will be foolishness to them and be a stumbling block.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[Forest]

Calvin wasn't stallin'.

I am in agreement with you, I think, can you explain yourself more clearly to a thick minded person?

 

[Forest]

Cronjecj,

I know that you are not stupid,

Those things will not INHERIT the kingdom,
But if All are confessing that Jesus is Lord,
Then they are not in that state anymore they have
become Alive in Christ.

No one can Inherit the Kingdom in that state,
But through the Grace and Mercy of The Cross All men
Shall be Redeemed.

Sorry, but scripture will not uphold that all men will be redeemed. Matt 25:46.

 

[Forest]

Forest,

Does God's Mercy and Grace only exist in this
Physical Realm, and is it only given to those in
a physical body?

Yes, there will be no reason for grace and mercy when we are in heaven.