TONGUES is a precious gift from God

[Heaven_Bound]

As to the charismatic tag and the possible reason it is there - I relooked at the page and see that the author is against pentecostals and charismatics. My reference to the French Prophets is connected to this element of the list:

• Cevennes: After Montanus, the next time any significant tongues-speaking movement arose was with the Cevennol Prophets of the seventeenth century. The Cevennol prophets likewise were outside of the church - their primary emphasis was on politics and the military.

And that is the second time the charismatic tag is used in the list - as the comment explains this is from 1700. I posted a link to a PhD paper that demonstrates that the claim is patent nonsense. And it is that nonsensical misuse of wilful false claims by Christians that characterises both sides of the argument. This website you posted a link to - is in fact against all charismatic use of tongues. PERIOD.

As to the so called Kundalini spirit - whilst the term has been applied as recently as a decade ago by a New Zealand brother in particular - the book I referenced and suggested you may want to read expressly cites that same meaning only it doesn't append made up words to do it. Hence my use of the expression so called when speaking about the Kundalini spirit. It is a reality that exists in Hinduism that is being applied by the author of the Kundalini Spirit fame - only Jesse Penn- Lewis is writing from the perspective of being a missionary in northern India (the then British summer seat of government [Simla] - today in Pakistan) And Mrs Penn-Lewis made both a rational and spiritual argument and didn't do what far too many Christians do today and imagine that they are being spiritual when they are wholly ignorant of what they are making claims to. Much of what Christians write these days is at best intellectual clap trap predicated on misquoting others to uphold either a cessationist position or else a charismatic prophetic madness.

I think the majority of your post is personal opinion, which you have every right to believe as you do. The Website is an accurate List of those for, against, opposed, and witnessed the topic of Tongues from the writings and documentation of those who fortunately kept notes of what was happening in their lifetime/Ministry/etc.

If Cessationalism was correct, Knowledge would not be as prevalent as it is Today. I did very well in my formal and higher education. Made a living off that Knowledge. But having the access to the Internet and comparing what I am learning each day to what I learned through the education system, I have more knowledge than I ever had. Daniel 12:4 speaks about Knowledge being evident in the future tense. Most people can attest to the knowledge they are gaining with access to Youtube, Internet, even gaining more Biblical Knowledge. If Cessationalism was correct, Knowledge would have Vanished when Tongues Ceased and Prophecy failed. But knowledge has clearly not Vanished but has Flourished and Increased. That means Prophecy has not Failed nor has Tongues Ceased.

The average local Church Body is less than 100 people. For the most part, there is nothing wrong going on. It's quite foolish to take the Examples off of Television and apply them to the local Church Body. Most Tongue Speaking local Church Bodies think what is happening on television is a complete Farce. But instead, they are being lumped together unjustly. Which proves just how out of touch most people who call themselves Followers of God actually are! Anyone, unable to Discern television from local Church Body reality needs serious help in multiple ways!

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Paul still says one person at a time speaking in tongues.

You did not understand my post. A bunch of people in the local Church Body are not Speaking in Tongues and there is Interpretation. When Tongues and Interpretation happened in my experience, everyone becomes very quiet, more praying in their mind not audible. Just silent Worship. You can sense the Holy Spirit moving. You can sense the Importance of the Moment. And then it happens, one person Speaks in Tongues, and then it is followed by someone else speaking in English with the Interpretation.

If you have witnessed something else, you have witnessed something very wrong.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I'm going to share something that God just revealed to me about a week ago. It had been tossing around inside me and I'd just not felt settled about it until God brought the question to the forefront of my mind and then proceeded to explain it to me. Here goes:

I used to know a prophet (someone who operates regularly in the gift of prophecy and had that as part of his calling). Of course he also had speaking in tongues, and often spoke in tongues out loud and in a way that was subsequently interpreted (which has MUCH in common with prophecy) so that's why I'm bringing this up here.

He was often sent into other churches as God would send him with messages to those churches, or to his children within those churches. And sometimes he would tell us what happened.

In one instance he was sent into a church and instead of prophesying, God had him speak a message aloud in tongues. USUALLY, God would provide the interpretation either through himself or some other in the church but on this occasion no audible interpretation followed. Now some would already be saying "If God didn't provide an interpretation, he should have kept his mouth SHUT" But he was wise enough to obey what God told him to do and trust God to take care of the rest. So that's why he was obedient.

After the service, at least 3 individuals approached him, saying that as he was speaking, God was giving them the interpretation internally and telling them to gather their families and get out of that church. So there was no infraction against 1 Corinthians 14:28 which says:

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.1 Corinthians 14:28 KJV​

However... the part that I was questioning was contained in verse 2:

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." - 1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV​

I thought "Isn't he speaking unto the 'men' (individuals) who heard the message and received the meaning?".

If you want to be accurate about it ...and I do... the answer is "No. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue is still NOT speaking to man, but unto God". In this particular case (as it also is in the case where audible interpretations are given) the unknown tongues was spoken to the Spirit (Holy Ghost, GOD) within them and GOD (the Spirit within them, the Holy Ghost, God) provided the interpretation to their understanding.

I thought that was kinda cool.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Oblio]

You can't say that if you spoke in tongues and there was no interpretation, you shouldn't have spoke, because how would you know unless you spoke? Perhaps you made a mistake. Perhaps someone had the interpretation but chickened out.
No, you speak, believing there will be an interpretation. If there is no interpretation, then you don't continue. Otherwise, one might, due to doubt, be quiet in case there's no interpretation. You step forth in faith, taking a risk.
You don't want to be in unbelief, nor do you want to be careless. As you try to be led by the Spirit, you try to keep in mind what the word says. The word is to help, not hinder the operation of the gifts. It's not a law!
My old pastor used to say, "I bless you to make mistakes." That's how we learn.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

I think the majority of your post is personal opinion, which you have every right to believe as you do. The Website is an accurate List of those for, against, opposed, and witnessed the topic of Tongues from the writings and documentation of those who fortunately kept notes of what was happening in their lifetime/Ministry/etc.

If Cessationalism was correct, Knowledge would not be as prevalent as it is Today. I did very well in my formal and higher education. Made a living off that Knowledge. But having the access to the Internet and comparing what I am learning each day to what I learned through the education system, I have more knowledge than I ever had. Daniel 12:4 speaks about Knowledge being evident in the future tense. Most people can attest to the knowledge they are gaining with access to Youtube, Internet, even gaining more Biblical Knowledge. If Cessationalism was correct, Knowledge would have Vanished when Tongues Ceased and Prophecy failed. But knowledge has clearly not Vanished but has Flourished and Increased. That means Prophecy has not Failed nor has Tongues Ceased.

The average local Church Body is less than 100 people. For the most part, there is nothing wrong going on. It's quite foolish to take the Examples off of Television and apply them to the local Church Body. Most Tongue Speaking local Church Bodies think what is happening on television is a complete Farce. But instead, they are being lumped together unjustly. Which proves just how out of touch most people who call themselves Followers of God actually are! Anyone, unable to Discern television from local Church Body reality needs serious help in multiple ways!

Sure if you mean that I am expressing myself in my own volition and cogency. If you mean that the charismatic tags in the link you provided are not used in the way I have stated then that is a simple matter of going and observing the page that contains the entire list of the numerous posts you made from that page. That cannot be a matter of opinion - it can only be a matter of sight.

As to the point you made about knowledge, local churches and the need of those whom you say [are], unable to Discern television from local Church Body reality needs serious help in multiple ways!

The spiritual abuse and the harm that charismatic believers and increasingly pentecostal believers have evidenced in the last 40 years in local churches runs into tens of thousands of the same running after signs and wonders to carry that effect back into their local churches and then in local churches pressing it onto their brethren or in the case of the pastors who endorsed the madness of worldwide campaigns that have literally reached hundreds of millions of Christians - the fire stalkers and the prophetic seers along with the wicked and carnal men and women who are all but sorcerers in their outward manner - they have abrogated reason in favour of mystical prophetic babble -

In this thread a brother who really has done no more that express his doubts and likely cessationist position is told by a sister@#223

"but what do you do?

you BADMOUTH the Holy Spirit and tell people not to believe and you are in Germany so you spread that news from there to a different continent."

The charismatic renewal that has infiltrated pentecostal churches and brought many of them to a place of carnal weakness is set aside in favour of an opportunity to condemn a brother in Christ for doing no more than writing on a forum that is hosted in the US from his home in Germany. Myself, I would rather leave the cessationist alone and address the charismatic brethren.

You see sister I am not a cessationist even though I am a Jew by birth and a Calvinist by election - I just find that I am more concerned by dissensions in the churches than by trying to solve every argument in favour of uplifting a spectacular abuse of the flocks by charismatic believers who cannot acknowledge the harm that has been done in the churches by an apostasy of the faith.

As to opinion - well it is entirely worthless - as to bearing witness it may stand if the Holy Spirit seals it with His authority.

As to the charismatic madness that has been upon us in the last 40 years - it will be torn down because judgement begins in the household of God - and not in the world.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

How can a person get saved without hearing the Gospel?


That's a good thing? What kind of trances? People cast about like skittles?

..curious. Thanks.

The narration I posted in the video link embedded in that post you are quoting simply states what happened in the Hebridean Revival. I am not at liberty to say anything further on that matter because I am still involved in the Hebrides - expressly with the children of those who were saved in that revival in 1949-52. The reason I posted it is because those two things - being slain in the Spirit - the trance and the falling back as described in the video were all unbelievers at the time as were all those who were thrown about the pews on the other side of the church. Within one week every single one of them were saved and began to confess Christ publicly. As to not hearing the gospel and yet being saved - well the video narration speaks plainly about that because it is an account of an effect in every household in a village five miles from the church in which Donald MacPhail prayer and asked the Father to send that power - seeing Christ in a vision at the right hand of the Father with the keys of death and hell at His girdle - and then the fire of God fell in a spectacular way. So those who were in their homes in that village and thereof knew nothing of what was happening just five miles away - experienced that fire of God and they also believed - yet they believed instantly without hearing the gospel being preached.

Duncan Campbell states in the narration that he cannot explain what happened - except to say that God works in sovereign ways. Just to say it - The Hebrides are a Calvinist community is so far as reformed doctrine is concerned. But I have preached in mission stations on the Island and have made express reference to the need for the baptism and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to work an express work to address the needs of the Islands. I wasn't resisted by men - I was spectacularly rested by demonic hoards through the air. - in fact I was openly supported by the elders and the congregations I ministered under.

Donald MacPhail: After he went into formal ministry and was preaching in the Highlands of Scotland - Duncan Campbell came to him and spoke to him directly to turn away from the local churches and to go into the mission field. That was because the Calvinist churches of Scotland resisted the meaning of God working in that power of the Holy Spirit. Donald then went into the mission field in a Muslim majority country. I fellowshipped with Donald and his immediate family and a few close friends who came out of the Highlands under his calling on the Isle of Lewis in the early 1990's - there were about fifty members and by and large they mostly operated in the gifts of the Spirit. But the gifts were never emphasised - the Cross was the focus and the unity of the faith and one body was the ambition regardless of all other matters.

 

[Aidan1]

Speaking in Tongues can be traced back from the Apostles till now. There's written Documentation from the time of the Apostles till now. Clearly, John Wesley, from England/U.K. in the 1700's Documents speaking in Tongues. That was less than 150 years before the 1900's. You just choose to ignore the facts.

Thats right speaking in tongues you find during the churchhistory but manly used from cults. Wesley claimed the baptism with the Holy Spirit as an event timely after someone is bornagain showes that the believer reached a special holy level/ live sinless.
According this, the corinthians would fail, because Paul could not see in his first letter
much mature Christians.
The events in Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19 gave no witness about the spiritual maturity of the believers.
So what you follow? The bible or man made doctrines?
So, even if John Wesley spoke in tongues, is it not a proof that this what we find about tongues in 1. COR. is for today.
You know that John Wesley count the montanism for Real Christians? So how we trust someone who found a cult for correct? At seems that he is not a measure for right doctrine.

Btw, why God should not use speaking in tongues for to reach people with the gospel?

But the teaching about tongues today has nothing to do with spreading the gospel.

 

[Aidan1]

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Theoretically speaking here, what is happening today is Greater than what happened in the Book of Acts.

So then show me one Single believer today through whom God works the deeds he did through Peter and Paul.
Where it was repeatet what God did in Acts 2,3 when the Holy Spirit fall onto the believers?

 

[Aidan1]

I've seen miracles of the likes Peter and Paul saw.

And the gifts given as well.

The Giver never changes, just the potential recipients do.

Then you have for shure no problems to share them! What miracles you saw?

 

[Aidan1]

Yes i can
I live it.
I love it

Salvation is like body surfing.
Baptism in the Holy Ghost is getting a surfboard.

Then you have for shure no problems to share the miracles and wonders God did through you. For his glory!

 

[VARob]

yet they believed instantly without hearing the gospel being preached.

People have to hear the gospel before they can believe it (Eph 1:13). People need to call on the name of the Lord to be saved (Rom 10:13ff).

 

[SophieT]

In this thread a brother who really has done no more that express his doubts and likely cessationist position is told by a sister@#223

"but what do you do?

you BADMOUTH the Holy Spirit and tell people not to believe and you are in Germany so you spread that news from there to a different continent."

you either truly do not understand, which I suspect at times is true as I see how you answer others and how you have answered me since I refute Calvinism

since I am the author of that infamous post 223, I know what I am talking about and you, do not

this brother does not express doubts. I know him well and he is not in ignorance and expressing doubts.

you appear to believe you are an authority here that has no rival but you are doing harm

you enjoy a freedom in this forum that would not be afforded you in quite a few others

however, you do not have freedom before God to accuse anyone of acting in a manner that you do not approve it when you are ignorant of both parties

 

[VARob]

Btw, why God should not use speaking in tongues for to reach people with the gospel?

But the teaching about tongues today has nothing to do with spreading the gospel.

Speaking in tongues was never about spreading the gospel. It’s for edifying the individual believer (1 Cor 14:4), for praying (1 Cor 14:14), and when spoken aloud and interpreted in a public setting, it edifies the church (1 Cor 14:5). What happened on the day of Pentecost, where others present understood the languages the apostles were speaking, was unique, is not guaranteed, and in fact rarely happens, although it occasionally does. That’s why when a person speaks in tongues in public, it must be interpreted so people can understand what was said (1 Cor 14:5, 13, 27). When someone speaks in tongues, they are not witnessing or sharing the gospel, they are speaking divine secrets (1 Cor 14:2), praying (1 Cor 14:14-15), speaking the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:11), praising God, magnifying Him (Acts 10:46), thanking Him (1 Cor 14:17).

 

[KelbyofGod]

You can't say that if you spoke in tongues and there was no interpretation, you shouldn't have spoke, because how would you know unless you spoke? Perhaps you made a mistake. Perhaps someone had the interpretation but chickened out.
No, you speak, believing there will be an interpretation. If there is no interpretation, then you don't continue. Otherwise, one might, due to doubt, be quiet in case there's no interpretation. You step forth in faith, taking a risk.
You don't want to be in unbelief, nor do you want to be careless. As you try to be led by the Spirit, you try to keep in mind what the word says. The word is to help, not hinder the operation of the gifts. It's not a law!
My old pastor used to say, "I bless you to make mistakes." That's how we learn.

I appreciate churches whose members are willing to learn and grow. And praise God for the pastors who allow the spiritual gifts to function. And praise God for God, who knows how to fix mistakes... to make all things work together for good to those who love him... Even mistakes. (He turns them around in miraculous ways)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Rhomphaeam]

People have to hear the gospel before they can believe it (Eph 1:13). People need to call on the name of the Lord to be saved (Rom 10:13ff).

So what that means is that more than 70% of the men. women and children who made a confession of Christ in the Hebridean Revival between 1949-1952 were deceived and only thought they came under the power of God. That sounds like one of those charismatic dishonesties after all. Duncan Campbell has borne a false witness and so we can all turn away because we have established by one precept that they could not have been saved after all because they didn't hear the gospel being preached when they came to faith.

It also means that my own faith is worthless because I came to salvation in solitary confinement in prison and there was no preacher - no gospel message and not even a bible to hand. Just myself and whoever it was that made me confess Christ and put my confidence in His death and resurrection for my sin.

Don't be concerned if I denigrate myself - I am as a wall of brass. So no need to retract your claim because to do so would be to make your claim false. And don't tell me that you are not speaking of myself - because I say that I didn't hear any gospel when I was saved when I was in solitary confinement at the time and there was no one to hear. We have to stand by what we say - and it is better to press it to its full meaning than endlessly play with words. Which is why I am so pleased that @Aidan1 has asked his last few questions. Lets see where reality lies - and let us say what the Lord has done that we were a party to - be that our own salvation or the great works of God in others lives.

So just to state the obvious - all men call upon the name of the Lord when the Lord comes to them in power. It's just a completely reasonable and inevitable outcome of meeting God in power.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

you either truly do not understand, which I suspect at times is true as I see how you answer others and how you have answered me since I refute Calvinism

since I am the author of that infamous post 223, I know what I am talking about and you, do not

this brother does not express doubts. I know him well and he is not in ignorance and expressing doubts.

you appear to believe you are an authority here that has no rival but you are doing harm

you enjoy a freedom in this forum that would not be afforded you in quite a few others

however, you do not have freedom before God to accuse anyone of acting in a manner that you do not approve it when you are ignorant of both parties

Try not to make this so personal sister. It won't serve any good purpose. Shalom

 

[SophieT]

Try not to make this so personal sister. It won't serve any good purpose. Shalom

you will not receive what you want in this forum and that is neither prophecy nor a threat

you do appear somewhat versed in manipulation brother as per this response

 

[VARob]

So no need to retract your claim

No worries there, friend. People don't get saved without calling on God.

Concerning your personal salvation, you must have know enough about the gospel, or at least enough to believe in God and call to Him.

God doesn't save people against their will. Calvinism isn't true.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

you will not receive what you want in this forum and that is neither prophecy nor a threat

you do appear somewhat versed in manipulation brother as per this response

Sister - resist playing with words to imbibe hidden meanings. Just say what you mean to say and say it plainly - it will be to your credit in the day of the Lord. If you want to incite meanings and are determined to do so - then do so. It will be like throwing stones at a brass wall. And I won't even complain to a moderator. Otherwise spare yourself any further effort.

 

[SophieT]

Sister - resist playing with words to imbibe hidden meanings. Just say what you mean to say and say it plainly - it will be to your credit in the day of the Lord. If you want to incite meanings and are determined to do so - then do so. It will be like throwing stones at a brass wall. And I won't even complain to a moderator. Otherwise spare yourself any further effort.

yeah

the fact you just 'had' to respond again illustrates what I said

there has been absolutely nothing personal from me.

I could care less about your 'warnings'. if you consider yourself to be a brass wall, so be it

you are spinning words and spouting nonsense but you are free to do so up to a point