What does this mean: "I have said, Ye are gods..."

[jaybird88]

Ok jaybird, let's do it your way. You just said, "they are judges/rulers, these judges however are sons of the Most High, not men like you and me." So who specifically are these sons of the Most High that are men like you and me?

I ask because I would like to know from you who are they judging at Psalm 82 verses 2-5?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

i think they are the rulers from this passage:
Deuteronomy 32 8-9
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

the nations were divided among the sons of the Most High, to those nations they were gods, but they were not the Most High.

remember the story of Naaman, Elisha cured him of leprosy, after the cure he wanted to worship the Most High of Israel, but for some reason he didnt think he could do this back at home unless he had dirt from Israel. this only makes sense if you understand that the nations were divided among the sons of the Most High and his home had been allotted to one of these rulers by the Most High. the dirt would serve as holy ground of the Most High just the same as if he was in Israel.

 

[bluto]

i think they are the rulers from this passage:
Deuteronomy 32 8-9
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

the nations were divided among the sons of the Most High, to those nations they were gods, but they were not the Most High.

remember the story of Naaman, Elisha cured him of leprosy, after the cure he wanted to worship the Most High of Israel, but for some reason he didnt think he could do this back at home unless he had dirt from Israel. this only makes sense if you understand that the nations were divided among the sons of the Most High and his home had been allotted to one of these rulers by the Most High. the dirt would serve as holy ground of the Most High just the same as if he was in Israel.

I don't buy that explanation for one second. How did you come up with the idea that Deuteronomy 32:8,9 has anything to do with judges who are called "gods/men" representing God by judging other men/ people unrighteously? Look at Psal m 58,1.2, "Do you indeed speak righteousness O gods? Do you judge uprightly, O SONS OF MEN? vs2, No, in heart you work unrighteousness; On earth you weigh out the violence of your hands." Who are these gods jaybird?

And look at Ezekiel 28:6-9, "Therefore, thus says the Lord God, Because you have made your heart like the heart of God, vs7, Therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you, The most ruthless of the nations, and they will draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor, vs8, They will bring you down to the pit, and yo will die the death of those who are slain in the heart of the seas. vs9, Will yo still say, "I am a god." In the presence of your slayer, AlTHOUGH YOU ARE A MAN AND NOT GOD, In the hands of those who wound you?"

The point being in this little exercise is the fact that these judges in Psalm 82:6 are men, period.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[jaybird88]

I don't buy that explanation for one second. How did you come up with the idea that Deuteronomy 32:8,9 has anything to do with judges who are called "gods/men" representing God by judging other men/ people unrighteously? Look at Psal m 58,1.2, "Do you indeed speak righteousness O gods? Do you judge uprightly, O SONS OF MEN? vs2, No, in heart you work unrighteousness; On earth you weigh out the violence of your hands." Who are these gods jaybird?

And look at Ezekiel 28:6-9, "Therefore, thus says the Lord God, Because you have made your heart like the heart of God, vs7, Therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you, The most ruthless of the nations, and they will draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor, vs8, They will bring you down to the pit, and yo will die the death of those who are slain in the heart of the seas. vs9, Will yo still say, "I am a god." In the presence of your slayer, AlTHOUGH YOU ARE A MAN AND NOT GOD, In the hands of those who wound you?"

The point being in this little exercise is the fact that these judges in Psalm 82:6 are men, period.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

why dont you explain what the Dt passage is talking about then?

The point being in this little exercise is the fact that these judges in Psalm 82:6 are men, period.

sure they are, men that live in the skies and that are called heavenly ones. that makes sense lol

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Children of God are Gods. We are children of God.

Demonic teaching there.

 

[jaybird88]

a better translation of Ps 58
Psalm 58 1 ESV

Do you indeed decree what is right, you gods? Do you judge the children of man uprightly?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

a better translation of Ps 58
Psalm 58 1 ESV

Do you indeed decree what is right, you gods? Do you judge the children of man uprightly?

Judges again.

 

[MarcR]

In Hebrew, when אֱלֹהִ֑ים Elohiym refers to deity it is ALWAYS to the one true (triune) God.

When 'gods' is intended אֱלֹהח֣י elohay is used.

The Hebrew word אֱלֹהִֽים Elohiym does NOT always signify deity. When applied to people it always signifies mighty in a political or military sense. note that the הִֽ he is accented with a הֽ megeth instead of an ה֑ atnah.

I Just made an interesting observation:

In Ps 82, in both verse 1 and verse 6 (where mighty is intended) The munach cantilation mark אֱלֹהִ֣ים is substituted for the metheg (typo in original post).


In this case the muna also functions as a metheg.
In verse 2, where God is intended The אֱלֹהִ֥ים merkah cantilation mark replaces the atnah

and in verse 8 where God is intended, the he is unaccented and a אֱ֭לֹהִים dehi continuation mark is placed on the Aleph


The distinctions made in my original post show the usual orthography.

 

[jaybird88]

Judges again.

judges was never an issue, where they men or heavenly beings is the issue.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

judges was never an issue, where they men or heavenly beings is the issue.

They were men judges.

 

[jaybird88]

They were men judges.

nothing in the text would suggest it.

divine council - no men there
son of the Host High are of the heavens, men are son of men of this world
men are already mortal
the nations were never divided among men.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

nothing in the text would suggest it.

divine council - no men there
son of the Host High are of the heavens, men are son of men of this world
men are already mortal
the nations were never divided among men.

The text, your ESV translation, says they are "born from the womb". That implies they are are men:
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:3 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/psa.58.3.ESV

 

[jaybird88]

The text, your ESV translation, says they are "born from the womb". That implies they are are men:
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:3 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/psa.58.3.ESV

it says estranged from the womb and go astray from birth.

if these judges are men, when were the nations divided among men? there is no scripture to suggest this. thre are several scriptures that support the nations being divided among sons of the Most High

 

[DevotiontoBible]

it says estranged from the womb and go astray from birth.

if these judges are men, when were the nations divided among men? there is no scripture to suggest this. thre are several scriptures that support the nations being divided among sons of the Most High

It says they were estranged (went astray) from the womb. Those are men not gods.

 

[7777pinacled]

I Just made an interesting observation:

In Ps 82, in both verse 1 and verse 6 (where mighty is intended) The munach cantilation mark אֱלֹהִ֣ים is substituted for the metheg (typo in original post).
View attachment 178089

In this case the muna also functions as a metheg.
In verse 2, where God is intended The אֱלֹהִ֥ים merkah cantilation mark replaces the atnah

and in verse 8 where God is intended, the he is unaccented and a אֱ֭לֹהִים dehi continuation mark is placed on the Aleph


The distinctions made in my original post show the usual orthography.

Court of singers, awesome.

 

[7777pinacled]

I Just made an interesting observation:

In Ps 82, in both verse 1 and verse 6 (where mighty is intended) The munach cantilation mark אֱלֹהִ֣ים is substituted for the metheg (typo in original post).
View attachment 178089

In this case the muna also functions as a metheg.
In verse 2, where God is intended The אֱלֹהִ֥ים merkah cantilation mark replaces the atnah

and in verse 8 where God is intended, the he is unaccented and a אֱ֭לֹהִים dehi continuation mark is placed on the Aleph


The distinctions made in my original post show the usual orthography.

I was reminded of the angels who came and ministered to our Lord.

In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire."

 

[jaybird88]

It says they were estranged (went astray) from the womb. Those are men not gods.

ok if thats what you think.

so where does scripture say the nations were divided by the Most High among these men rulers? are you just assuming this with no scripture support, like i said before, i have supplied scripture support that they were divided among the sons of the Most High, i have yet to see a scripture showing they were divided among men.

 

[MarcR]

the DSS and LXX both agree that it is in fact "gods"

DSS -
6 I said, “You are gods,

all of you are sons of the Most High.



LXX -

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you children of the Most High. 7 But ye die as men, and fall as one of the princes.

mainstream Jews argue this same subject and i have never heard any of them mention this "accent" theory. and these guys have been in Hebrew school since they were five.

Th Dead Sea Scrolls are also written in Hebrew, NOT ENGLISH; and the LXX is a Greek translation from the Hebrew.

Whoever translated them into English and/or Greek may not be aware of how the accents function beyond the fact that they signal a pause or emphasized syllable.

Observation reveals that the word is accented differently when it refers to God than when it refers to the mighty.

Elohiym is NEVER used to signify gods! Elohay alone serves that function. Whoever translated the DSS and or the LXX must have followed the KJV.


I realize that all the major English translations have followed the KJV. The Complete Jewish Bible, the Jerusalem Bible (Tenach) and the JPS Bible (T'nach) and the Soncino Tenach all have it translated correctly.

The HPS interlinear calls itself a translation but, in fact, follows the KJV except for 3 verses.

I started Hebrew School when I was 4 and attended 2 hrs /day 6 days/wk until I was 13.

The Hebrew schools in most synagogues meet 2 or 3 times per week for an hour.

Even most yeshivas don't offer as much training in Hebrew as I got.

 

[bluto]

nothing in the text would suggest it.

divine council - no men there
son of the Host High are of the heavens, men are son of men of this world
men are already mortal
the nations were never divided among men.

You just said, "divine council-no men there. Fine, then tell me who are the people this so-called divine council (who are not men according to you) that are judging at Psalm 82:2-5? Are then men or somebody else?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[know1]

I Just made an interesting observation:

In Ps 82, in both verse 1 and verse 6 (where mighty is intended) The munach cantilation mark אֱלֹהִ֣ים is substituted for the metheg (typo in original post).
View attachment 178089

In this case the muna also functions as a metheg.
In verse 2, where God is intended The אֱלֹהִ֥ים merkah cantilation mark replaces the atnah

and in verse 8 where God is intended, the he is unaccented and a אֱ֭לֹהִים dehi continuation mark is placed on the Aleph


The distinctions made in my original post show the usual orthography.

No no no, you are doing it all wrong.
You are perverting the meaning by interpreting each and every word.
You have to check the preceding and following verses to get a general idea of what the verse is talking about.
And then you will have an accurate understand of what the verse is saying.
Or so I am told when it comes to interpreting scripture that proves the others wrong.
I haven't seen that nonsensical argument on this subject, so I thought I would just throw that in.
Good post sir, I enjoy the Hebrew lessons.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

ok if thats what you think.

so where does scripture say the nations were divided by the Most High among these men rulers? are you just assuming this with no scripture support, like i said before, i have supplied scripture support that they were divided among the sons of the Most High, i have yet to see a scripture showing they were divided among men.

What Scripture are you talking about?