Women Pastors? Help me.

[samuel23]

Women are certainly equal to men in spiritual matters, however that is not the issue, we are dealing with GOD. Only males were allowed to be priest, does that not tell you something? The twelve apostles were all males, does that not tell you something? When God says through Paul that women are not to be in authority over men in the church then it is not a question open to debate, one either obeys God or disobeys God.

 

[John146]

Women are certainly equal to men in spiritual matters, however that is not the issue, we are dealing with GOD. Only males were allowed to be priest, does that not tell you something? The twelve apostles were all males, does that not tell you something? When God says through Paul that women are not to be in authority over men in the church then it is not a question open to debate, one either obeys God or disobeys God.

Agreed, it's not about my view, your view, Angela's view or anybody else's view...it's about what God has said.

 

[samuel23]

An issue like this separates those who really believe the bible from those who partly believe the bible. We have a very clear place in scripture that runs contrary to what our culture has been led to accept. I used to wonder about Amy McPherson, and K. Khulman. They seemed to have so much power with God...but did they really? It is a scary thing to read something clear and in context in the word of God and decide to ignore it. God has said, let not a woman have authority over a man in the church. It could never be worth it for a woman to ignore what God has said. Can you disobey God in order to serve God better?

 

[Depleted]

I hope nobody is taking me as being argumentative, because I am not, I'm only trying to provide my point of view based on scripture. I personally wish that women were permitted to teach, because Ive heard some of the most brilliant things said from women. I'm definitely not saying that women are in any way incapable of being good leaders or good ministers/preachers. But I simply choose the very plain message from what I can read in the bible.


I believe that 1 Timothy 2:11-12 is so very clear on the subject.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet


I also don't think it matters if a woman is married or single.I know its unpopular, but I still think its clear. I realize that everyone is just going to think what they want anyway haha

Yup. 1 Tim 2 is where we agree.

 

[Dino246]

You will answer to God and He has made it clear in scripture that He does not want a woman in a position of authority over men in the church. I cannot imagine a woman of God deciding to go against God in order to serve God...if you want to serve God do what He says, to obey is BETTER then to sacrifice. A desire to be over others is usually from the flesh.

It's a good thing you won't have to answer to God for being a woman; you'll have enough to answer for.
Did you even read Angela's posts? Or are you afraid you might learn something from her?

 

[Dino246]

Women are certainly equal to men in spiritual matters, however that is not the issue, we are dealing with GOD. Only males were allowed to be priest, does that not tell you something? The twelve apostles were all males, does that not tell you something? When God says through Paul that women are not to be in authority over men in the church then it is not a question open to debate, one either obeys God or disobeys God.

Only Jews were allowed to be priests; does that not tell you something? Only Jews made up the twelve apostles; does that not tell you something? Pry open your logical box a little further... it seems to be stuck.

 

[Dino246]

An issue like this separates those who really believe the bible from those who partly believe the bible.

Ah yes... let's make sure we know who the super-duper Christians are.

Oh, wait, wrong thread... or is it?

 

[Depleted]

If your small child ate a large bagful of candy, and you told him, "You're going to get sick!" would that be a curse or a statement of likely consequence?

God's statements to Adam and Eve, as quoted above, were statements of consequence, not curse. He cursed the serpent and the ground. Why would God is His great wisdom assign now-sinful man to be in charge of woman? That is contrary to His goodness. It makes much more sense to me that God is saying to Eve, "Sinful man is going to rule over woman anyway". There is nothing in the text to say that God approves of this, any more than He "approves" of painful childbirth. We live in a fallen world.

So, instead of making grandiose statement about twisting scripture, perhaps you could consider this perspective. It makes a significant difference in how you interpret every other passage about women.

Adam and Eve worked in the garden before the Fall. Adam had to name every single animal. That's work. I don't think they sweat though. And they really didn't have to pull weeds, harvest, or even plant, so no sweaty brows required.

And part of the curse was thorns and poisonous plants. That wasn't "you're going to get a tummy ache." That was God intentionally changing the scenery to something not-pleasant.

I've heard women giving birth. Definitely hurts. Would have been nice if it didn't. And the only ways childbirth hurts the man is that he watches his wife in that much pain, and might be just dumb enough to ask her to squeeze his hand. (Why do men offer that? Are you guys nuts? She's thinking it's your fault anyway, so sort of giving the opportunity to get both pain and anger out. lol)

I really do think God was punishing Man. Not "tummy ache." More, "You're grounded now."

So, I do agree it changes perspective on everything else we read, but I didn't quite think Jerry was that off, and I do think you are a bit off. Is that twisting scripture?

 

[Utah]

I've yet to hear a White chick give a sermon that rocked my world; I need a Black woman with soul. That said, I'd like to hear Angela and Kayla because I know they can deliver.

 

[kaylagrl]

I've yet to hear a White chick give a sermon that rocked my world; I need a Black woman with soul. That said, I'd like to hear Angela and Kayla because I know they can deliver.

Haha!Thanks brother! I truly hope I would not disappoint. I appreciate your confidence in me. And I would join you in wanting to hear a sermon from sister Angela, I have much respect for her.

 

[Magenta]

Samuel, you disregard what Scripture teaches, claiming that Adam did not sin
when he disobeyed God! I corrected you but as far as I know you never
acknowledged your mistake. You also plainly disregard Paul calling
Phoebe a deacon! How do you explain that? I am sure you have
some excuse you consider a valid reason for ignoring the
revealed written Word of God, as no doubt John does.
I don't think we need to hear them again.

Mary Magdalene was the first to witness the risen Lord.
Does that not tell you something?

Early Christian writers called Mary an apostle to the apostles!

 

[Depleted]

Regarding "authority" and various other selected verses, which people have chosen to post in this thread. These are the things God revealed to me in Seminary. I was reading the verse below, 1 Tim. 2:12, in my daily Bible reading, and I felt hurt and overwhelmed. Why would God call me to Seminary, and then not use me? It made no sense. I cried out to God, and the next day, I stopped in at a used bookstore, and God led me to 3 books on women in ministry.

Since then, I have accumulated many more books and scholarly articles. Those first three books explained the Greek, which I did not yet read, although my Greek studies have confirmed the truth of the way we are to read these disputed verses. Quite simply, there was an agenda when the KJV and many modern verses were translated. And that means some twisting in the translation process to make it say what God never meant it to say.


"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena in Greek. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia. (The word used in Matt 28:18)

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have read, authentein means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's anointing, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

The best translation, which takes into account the infinitive status of authentein "to domineer' as opposed to turning into a noun, and having to add an extraneous verb like "exercise," for the verse to make sense. Authentein is not a substantive, and there is no justification for adding a verb that is not even in the verse.

"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to domineer over a man, rather, she is to remain silent." 1 Tim. 2:12 (my translation!)

Further, the word "silent" or ἡσυχίᾳ in this verse, is the same word the rabbis used when teacher their students. They were not allowed to teach, and were to remain silent. In other words, Paul is following the rabbinic tradition, and saying the women are not ready to teach, and they need to stop domineering men.

Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)

Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.

So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!

So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia. Instead, he was giving instructions for Timothy to take these new women converts in hand, and get them to listen and learn. Maybe later, some of them could be preachers and evangelists. Prisca was certainly a teacher of the word. Why would Paul commend her, if he wanted her to be permanently silent? It makes absolutely no sense!

"Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus." Romans 16:3

Note that Prisca or Priscilla is listed first, and in 6 other passages. (Acts 18:18, 19, 26, Romans 16:3, and 1 Tim. 4:19) Aquila is only listed first once in 1 Cor. 16:19. The person that was mentioned first, in Roman and Greek tradition, is the stronger partner or the one in charge. Prisca must have been a very knowledge woman concerning the Word of God, including the New Testament and spreading the gospel.



And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word "autos" (αὐτὸς) which is a close to the pronoun, HE, as you can get in Greek, does NOT appear at all in verses 1-7. In addition, it talks about "deacons" in" verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. Τhe ESV translates it as thus:

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV

But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no "THEIR" in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons" or "their wives." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!

The NIV comes much closer with:

In the same way, the women(deaconesses?) are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV

As for 1 Tim. 3:2 "husband of one wife" is an admonition to the men who want to help out in ministry to NOT have more than one wife. It is simply not a prohibition that only men are allowed to be deacons.

If anyone is interested, I can parse the above verse in Greek, and explain what it means. And other verses!


As far as the office of pastor, I have yet to see anyone post a qualification for that office.

The big reference is Eph. 4:11:

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13

There is no place in the entire chapter that Paul says only men can hold these positions. In fact, the Greek uses the word "Some" or τοϋς, which definitely includes both genders!! In addition, the word "pastor" does not actually appear in this verse. The word is ποιμένας or poimenas in this case. It means "shepherd"

So that is the low down. Once again, the Greek has nothing against women being pastors. The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.

Really, what it really comes back to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ!

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18


As for me, I will continue to serve God however he calls me. He has given me gifts, called me and used me in so many ways. Why would I care what bad translations, and certain men who cling to wrong translations think? I am answerable to Christ, and I pray that he will use me, an obedient servant till the day I die.

PS Sorry for such a long post. I could not figure out a way to break it up!

I've read all three of your post and agree with 99% of what you've written. The one and only problem I have with a woman pastor is this -- pastors are also counselors. How does a woman counsel a couple? It screws up the whole authority dynamic in that couple's relationship as well as how the couple interacts/participates/edifies the church. It is like saying women are to submit to men (and by that I mean men they trust because they are trustworthy, not every guy) except in counseling where they skip submitting to husband and, instead, submit to the pastor. And, likewise, the man is to let go of his authority and give himself over to the authority of a woman.

I've never seen any hint of the exception clause in the Bible.

You can sway me over on the teaching part. (I'm already to women teaching younger folk, so how hard can that be?) You can sway me over on evangelism. (Don't even have to for that, since I think women are just as likely to be evangelist as men.) I already believe in deaconess. I already believe in women visiting the sick or going to prisons. It's that one little sticking part that did me in -- I have no authority to tell a man what to do in his marriage. I don't even think most men have the authority there, but a pastor would, unless the pastor happens to be a woman. And I'm saying this even using your word "domineering." How can a husband get past he feels like he's being dominate over by a woman? And how can a women tell someone else's husband what he should do without it being domineering?

You asked,

Why would I care what bad translations, and certain men who cling to wrong translations think?

Because you're trying to counsel that husband! You've got to get through to him in terms he will accept, or you don't get through. And isn't part of being a pastor is being a counselor?

 

[Depleted]

You will answer to God and He has made it clear in scripture that He does not want a woman in a position of authority over men in the church. I cannot imagine a woman of God deciding to go against God in order to serve God...if you want to serve God do what He says, to obey is BETTER then to sacrifice. A desire to be over others is usually from the flesh.

Soooo, okay. We have to answer to God if we get this one wrong. What's he going to do? Kick us out for not getting this one small thing right? Kick a woman who was a good and faithful pastor out because she was born the wrong gender?

Yeah? Really? Kind of think I have bigger things to answer for when I do the face-to-face. Jesus gave us two commandments that sum up the law -- Love God fully and love others as our self. I may never agree with a woman being a pastor, but I do NOT see a woman pastor breaking either of those commandments. She IS loving in all the right ways, as much as a man pastor.

(I really wish people will save the "you have to answer to God" card for something significant... say like SIN!)

 

[kaylagrl]

I've read all three of your post and agree with 99% of what you've written. The one and only problem I have with a woman pastor is this -- pastors are also counselors. How does a woman counsel a couple? It screws up the whole authority dynamic in that couple's relationship as well as how the couple interacts/participates/edifies the church. It is like saying women are to submit to men (and by that I mean men they trust because they are trustworthy, not every guy) except in counseling where they skip submitting to husband and, instead, submit to the pastor. And, likewise, the man is to let go of his authority and give himself over to the authority of a woman.

I've never seen any hint of the exception clause in the Bible.

You can sway me over on the teaching part. (I'm already to women teaching younger folk, so how hard can that be?) You can sway me over on evangelism. (Don't even have to for that, since I think women are just as likely to be evangelist as men.) I already believe in deaconess. I already believe in women visiting the sick or going to prisons. It's that one little sticking part that did me in -- I have no authority to tell a man what to do in his marriage. I don't even think most men have the authority there, but a pastor would, unless the pastor happens to be a woman. And I'm saying this even using your word "domineering." How can a husband get past he feels like he's being dominate over by a woman? And how can a women tell someone else's husband what he should do without it being domineering?

You asked,

Because you're trying to counsel that husband! You've got to get through to him in terms he will accept, or you don't get through. And isn't part of being a pastor is being a counselor?

Totally JMO but I dont think pastors should council married couples, I think a pastor and wife should do so. And even at that I know very few pastors that have any skill when it comes to marriage counseling.My sisters former pastors best advice was "fight naked,you wont be able to stay mad at each other". Seriously. Some people have a special calling for counseling, very few pastors do well at it.

 

[Depleted]

Women are certainly equal to men in spiritual matters, however that is not the issue, we are dealing with GOD. Only males were allowed to be priest, does that not tell you something? The twelve apostles were all males, does that not tell you something? When God says through Paul that women are not to be in authority over men in the church then it is not a question open to debate, one either obeys God or disobeys God.

Yeah, it does tell me something. Did God screwup when he made Debrara the spiritual leader over the Israelites?

As for what's open for debate? I'm thinking if we're debating it, it is obviously open for debate.

 

[Depleted]

An issue like this separates those who really believe the bible from those who partly believe the bible. We have a very clear place in scripture that runs contrary to what our culture has been led to accept. I used to wonder about Amy McPherson, and K. Khulman. They seemed to have so much power with God...but did they really? It is a scary thing to read something clear and in context in the word of God and decide to ignore it. God has said, let not a woman have authority over a man in the church. It could never be worth it for a woman to ignore what God has said. Can you disobey God in order to serve God better?

Wild guess here. You didn't read Angela's well-thought-out post, did you?

 

[kaylagrl]

Soooo, okay. We have to answer to God if we get this one wrong. What's he going to do? Kick us out for not getting this one small thing right? Kick a woman who was a good and faithful pastor out because she was born the wrong gender?

Yeah? Really? Kind of think I have bigger things to answer for when I do the face-to-face. Jesus gave us two commandments that sum up the law -- Love God fully and love others as our self. I may never agree with a woman being a pastor, but I do NOT see a woman pastor breaking either of those commandments. She IS loving in all the right ways, as much as a man pastor.

(I really wish people will save the "you have to answer to God" card for something significant... say like SIN!)

I have more than one female pastor in my family and they felt the call of God on their lives. They were bold for the Lord. Some have passed,some have retired. No one can deny they served the Lord with all their hearts.

 

[Depleted]

Totally JMO but I dont think pastors should council married couples, I think a pastor and wife should do so. And even at that I know very few pastors that have any skill when it comes to marriage counseling.My sisters former pastors best advice was "fight naked,you wont be able to stay mad at each other". Seriously. Some people have a special calling for counseling, very few pastors do well at it.

First, let me guess. The fight-naked person was a single man? Because that guy doesn't get how angry angry can get. lol

As for pastors not counseling? How do you tend the flock without talking out problems with people who have problems?

(Hey, my denomination gets around that one by hiring two types of Elders -- Teaching Elders, who do just that, and Ruling Elders, who are charged with tending the flock. But most churches only have one pastor.)

 

[PinkDiamond]

There is also the account of Anna the prophetess in Luke 2:38. Granted she wasn't a " minister", but she did speak of Christ to all that sought redemption in Jerusalem. That sounds like evangelism and preaching

 

[Depleted]

I have more than one female pastor in my family and they felt the call of God on their lives. They were bold for the Lord. Some have passed,some have retired. No one can deny they served the Lord with all their hearts.

I'm still opposed to woman pastors, but I have no doubt they are doing God's work. I also have no doubt they get the "Well done, good and faithful servant" from God himself one day.

I know women will step up, if they have to. But I think that says something about guys who should have. (Along with the couple counseling problem.)