Women Pastors? Help me.

[Magenta]

 

[Dino246]

Adam and Eve worked in the garden before the Fall. Adam had to name every single animal. That's work. I don't think they sweat though. And they really didn't have to pull weeds, harvest, or even plant, so no sweaty brows required.

And part of the curse was thorns and poisonous plants. That wasn't "you're going to get a tummy ache." That was God intentionally changing the scenery to something not-pleasant.

I've heard women giving birth. Definitely hurts. Would have been nice if it didn't. And the only ways childbirth hurts the man is that he watches his wife in that much pain, and might be just dumb enough to ask her to squeeze his hand. (Why do men offer that? Are you guys nuts? She's thinking it's your fault anyway, so sort of giving the opportunity to get both pain and anger out. lol)

I really do think God was punishing Man. Not "tummy ache." More, "You're grounded now."

So, I do agree it changes perspective on everything else we read, but I didn't quite think Jerry was that off, and I do think you are a bit off. Is that twisting scripture?

Lynn, I sincerely respect you, and I disagree with you.

 

[Angela53510]

There you have it. When the Bible goes against what I believe then change the Bible to fit what I believe. Use other books and study materials that agree with my theology and then correct the Bible. With this perspective, we can make the Bible fit into any theology system we come up with.

What do you do with:

1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

These are guidelines for men pastors. Where are the guidelines for women pastors specified in Scripture? And please, I am not saying that women are not equal or women can't be used in a mighty way in the ministry within the church, but God has set this thing up with order.

I already dealt with this above! In fact, it is the KJV translators and other translators who have changed the Bible. And next time, kindly put up the reference for the verses you are posting. KJV changes it so radically, I really had to figure out what was being said! Google helped, before I realized it was what I had already written above!

Just for you, the Greek for the above verses! As I repeat before, at no place is the word "He" or autos ἀυτός (Gk) used in verses 1-7.

"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ.2 δεῖ οὖν τὸν ἐπίσκοπον ἀνεπίλημπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον, φιλόξενον, διδακτικόν,3 μὴ πάροινον, μὴ πλήκτην, ἀλλὰ ἐπιεικῆ, ἄμαχον, ἀφιλάργυρον,4 τοῦ ἰδίου οἴκου καλῶς προϊστάμενον, τέκνα ἔχοντα ἐν ὑποταγῇ μετὰ πάσης σεμνότητος·5 (εἰ δέ τις τοῦ ἰδίου οἴκου προστῆναι οὐκ οἶδεν, πῶς ἐκκλησίας θεοῦ ἐπιμελήσεται6 μὴ νεόφυτον, ἵνα μὴ τυφωθεὶς εἰς κρίμα ἐμπέσῃ τοῦ διαβόλου.7 δεῖ δὲ καὶ μαρτυρίαν καλὴν ἔχειν ἀπὸ τῶν ἔξωθεν, ἵνα μὴ εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν ἐμπέσῃ καὶ παγίδα τοῦ διαβόλου." 1 Tom. 3:1-7

Verse 1
KJV says man, according to your bolded portion above. Man in Greek is aner ἀνέρ or andros ἀνδρός. The other word anthropos ἀνθρωπός, which really should be rendered "person, human being, humanity" was sometimes rendered as "man" in the older texts. As you can see below, verse 1 does not contain any of these words. In other words, MAN was added to the verse by the translator. Nor is "he" in the text which is the the word autos or ἀυτός in Greek. So two words down. The verse is mistranslated to reflect the opinion of King James, who was following in the shadow of the greatest monarch England ever had. Queen Elizabeth I. He did not want women to be in control, perhaps was even terrified of the incredible things Elizabeth did for England during her reign.

"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ." 1 Tim. 3:1

Verse 2
The second verse rightly refers to men who want to be an overseer, who have more than one wife. The New Testament is clear, especially in verses like this, that men are not to be polygamous, but rather to have one wife. Why were the women not addressed in this verse? I can only suppose that they did not have more than one husband, as polyandry was rare in the Greek societies.

Verse 3 - no words pertaining to any gender, we can agree on that.

Verse 4
"One that ruleth "HIS" house well". There is simply no word for "his" which could be autou άυτοῦ. Τhis is the genitive possessive, and does not appear in the sentence below the first part of the verse reads: "of one's own house." No word "HIS" in verse 4 in the Greek. All neutral!

"4 τοῦ ἰδίου οἴκου καλῶς προϊστάμενον, τέκνα ἔχοντα ἐν ὑποταγῇ μετὰ πάσης σεμνότητος" 1 Tim. 3:4

Verse 5
KJV - A MAN does not.... HIS house. The verse in Greek.

"(εἰ δέ τις τοῦ ἰδίου οἴκου προστῆναι οὐκ οἶδεν, πῶς ἐκκλησίας θεοῦ ἐπιμελήσεται"

Notice, once again, the words for man does not appear in the verse above (aner or andros) Instead, the impersonal adjective tis, or τις appears. Tis is a neuter word, meaning "someone, anyone, a certain one." So the first part of verse 5 should read, "But if someone does not know to rule/manage one's own house."

The second half should read "How will "he, she or it" care for the church of God?" The "he, she or it," is the technical translation of the noun reference in word epimelesatai, which is third person singular. Of course, it would not mean "it," because people have gender, however, he or she are both correct. But you cannot pick he, and not acknowledge that she is just as valid a translation.

Verse 6 - no words which refer to gender.

Verse 7 - KJV says "Moreover HE" however, verse 7 again, does not contain the word autos in the Greek. It does not refer to ANY GENDER.

"δεῖ δὲ καὶ μαρτυρίαν καλὴν ἔχειν ἀπὸ τῶν ἔξωθεν, ἵνα μὴ εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν ἐμπέσῃ καὶ παγίδα τοῦ διαβόλου.""

"But it is necessary also to have a good witness/reputation among outsiders, so that he/she will not fall into reproach [which is] also the snare of the devil." 1 Tim. 3:7 (my literal translation) See also Mounce's Reverse-Interlinear NT. (Bible gateway.com) [] indicate added necessary English words, because the "is" or estin ἐστίν is understood in Greek.

This the literal translation. Since no mention has been made of a man being the person referred to in verses 1-6, it would not be good Greek to suddenly add a "he" when the entire passage has been neutral.


And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word "autos" (αὐτὸς) which is a close to the pronoun, HE, as you can get in Greek, does NOT appear at all in verses 1-7 nor man- aner ἀνέρor androsἀνδρός.. In addition, it talks about "deacons" in" verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. Τhe ESV translates it as thus:

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV

But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no "THEIR" in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons" or "their wives." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!

The NIV comes much closer with:

In the same way, the women(deaconesses?) are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV

As for 1 Tim. 3:2 "husband of one wife" is an admonition to the men who want to help out in ministry to NOT have more than one wife. It is simply not a prohibition that only men are allowed to be deacons."


Finally, verse 1 Tim. 3:12

"διάκονοι ἔστωσαν μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρες, τέκνων καλῶς προϊστάμενοι καὶ τῶν ἰδίων οἴκων·" 1 Tim. 3:12

Estosan or ἔστωσαν is the εἰμί, third person plural, present imperative active. Thus, the men deacons are commanded to only have one wife. This seems to be a repeated theme with Paul. The only time he mentions gender, is when it concerns men who are deacons having more than one wife (verses 3 & 12). A definite admonishment to men who are deacons. And women obviously not needing such a warning, as I said before.

So, this entire passage does not contain one word saying men can be only deacons, although I can see how one would be fooled after reading a bad translation, which actually changes the Bible from being neutral with respect to gender where deacons are concerned, and constantly inserting words like "man" "he" and "his." I hope this helps you John, and the others who are confused by wrong translations of the Greek.

And if you don't believe me, feel free to find a Greek translator, and see what they say about the actual words written here. I assure you, I use all the usual Greek tools - Bauer (BDAG) Greek/English Lexicon, and various other tools to say nothing of my study of Greek.

 

[Angela53510]

Women are certainly equal to men in spiritual matters, however that is not the issue, we are dealing with GOD. Only males were allowed to be priest, does that not tell you something? The twelve apostles were all males, does that not tell you something? When God says through Paul that women are not to be in authority over men in the church then it is not a question open to debate, one either obeys God or disobeys God.

Apparently you missed what I said in post #97. I just quoted the Greek, and showed how badly some of the KJV is translated.

You are not believing what God says, but rather what men with an agenda said, when they decided to translate the Bible wrongly. Over and over!

Here is a portion, I hope all of you who keep saying "God said" when in fact it was "men translated" will wake up and pay attention!

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena in Greek. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia. (The word used in Matt 28:18)

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have read, authentein means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's anointing, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

The best translation, which takes into account the infinitive status of authentein "to domineer" as opposed to turning into a noun, and having to add an extraneous verb like "exercise," for the verse to make sense. Authentein is not a substantive, and there is no justification for adding a verb that is not even in the verse.
"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to domineer over a man, rather, she is to remain silent." 1 Tim. 2:12 (my translation!)

Further, the word "silent" or ἡσυχίᾳ in this verse, is the same word the rabbis used when teacher their students. They were not allowed to teach, and were to remain silent. In other words, Paul is following the rabbinic tradition, and saying the women are not ready to teach, and they need to stop domineering men.

Please see more on my previous post.

Of course, those who think the KJV is divinely inspired, are going to have issues with the bad translation in their version. Later to this post, I will go through 1 Tim. 3:1-7, 1-12, and show how bad those translations were in KJV, and yes, in many modern versions, too! ESV, being complementation is one of the worst. (see post #123) on page 7) In fact, sadly, no one really got it right, with the temptation to add a gendered pronoun being difficult to overcome, when in fact, there was no gender introduced. That being a big difference between English and Greek. Our verbs simply need to have a gendered pronoun, although there are ways to get around it.

 

[Angela53510]

I've yet to hear a White chick give a sermon that rocked my world; I need a Black woman with soul. That said, I'd like to hear Angela and Kayla because I know they can deliver.

Thanks for your confidence in me, too! I have several posted to the internet, but I have never listened to them myself. So, if I ever manage to listen to them, I would love to send you the links. Whether it rocks your world, well, I will leave that up to God!

 

[Angela53510]

I've read all three of your post and agree with 99% of what you've written. The one and only problem I have with a woman pastor is this -- pastors are also counselors. How does a woman counsel a couple? It screws up the whole authority dynamic in that couple's relationship as well as how the couple interacts/participates/edifies the church. It is like saying women are to submit to men (and by that I mean men they trust because they are trustworthy, not every guy) except in counseling where they skip submitting to husband and, instead, submit to the pastor. And, likewise, the man is to let go of his authority and give himself over to the authority of a woman.

I've never seen any hint of the exception clause in the Bible.

You can sway me over on the teaching part. (I'm already to women teaching younger folk, so how hard can that be?) You can sway me over on evangelism. (Don't even have to for that, since I think women are just as likely to be evangelist as men.) I already believe in deaconess. I already believe in women visiting the sick or going to prisons. It's that one little sticking part that did me in -- I have no authority to tell a man what to do in his marriage. I don't even think most men have the authority there, but a pastor would, unless the pastor happens to be a woman. And I'm saying this even using your word "domineering." How can a husband get past he feels like he's being dominate over by a woman? And how can a women tell someone else's husband what he should do without it being domineering?

You asked,

Because you're trying to counsel that husband! You've got to get through to him in terms he will accept, or you don't get through. And isn't part of being a pastor is being a counselor?

Interesting question! One thing I know - I cannot counsel or teach my own husband. He actually, after my last sermon, said, that it "was ok" "with a few good points." As he is a master of understatement, this is high praise!

As for counselling, I have not done a lot as a pastor, but when I was working as a chaplain, I counselled men all the time. In fact, one widower whose wife of 70 years had just died, I spent a lot of time counselling and praying with him. But that sounded like a marriage that didn't need any help from me or anyone else. The man was grief stricken. I don't know how much longer he lasted.

I have counselled men of all ages. Talked about their issues, and their problems, and introduced them to Christ. I will say, I often offer counsel in the Family Forum, although face to face marriage counselling would be very different.

Basically, God's principles are the same in counselling, no matter whether it is a man or woman that is doing it. Plus, if I was to tell a woman to submit to her husband, she might listen more, if it was in context of a woman pastor. As for men that are overbearing, thinking they have the right to treat their wives terribly, they would probably not listen to me, either. I would pass those couples off to another pastor. There is nothing wrong with admitting in certain circumstances, I would not be the right person to do the job! Although, I would think that a good pastor would probably say the same things to an abusive husband as I do. And the pastors who tell their wives to go back into an abusive marriage, well, they are complicit in abuse and sometimes murder, which happens more often than most people would like to admit. (Yes, in the church! Sadly!)

Still, I cannot find any Bible verse that prohibits a woman from counselling a couple. Do you know one? In fact, the whole idea of "counselling" per se, is really not in the Bible, although their are some excellent principles that anyone who knows them can use.

 

[kaylagrl]

First, let me guess. The fight-naked person was a single man? Because that guy doesn't get how angry angry can get. lol

As for pastors not counseling? How do you tend the flock without talking out problems with people who have problems?

(Hey, my denomination gets around that one by hiring two types of Elders -- Teaching Elders, who do just that, and Ruling Elders, who are charged with tending the flock. But most churches only have one pastor.)

Believe it or not he was married. I have just found that pastors dont make good marriage counselors. Not according to what Ive seen with family and friends.

 

[garee]

God has established government. There is government at home and government in the church. While we are informed in Galatians 3: 28 and similar verses that say we are neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female it simply means we are all God’s children if we are saved .It does not negate the government God has set up. .

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Act 2:17

The last days speaks of the time of refomation. As part of the new order seeing the old was restored at the time of the first century reformation to another time period (Judges) when there was no outward representative or appointed meeting place (the temple) .Today we go out into the world . Where before the gathering together was restricted.

The body of Christ became a kingdom of priests; every believer is typified as a priest. .I believe the time period of Judges uses Deborah as a prophet. She is identified as a mother of Israel. Which is a picture of the bride of Christ made up of male and female, the freed woman.

Jud 5:7 The inhabitants of the villages ceased, they ceased in Israel, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel.

However God informs us carefully that woman are to be silent when the whole congregation gathers together something that was passed on form the fall . Just as all inherit the sin nature that principle where woman are not to be the head as far as authority remains. So woman are not to teach Bible class they are in and should have their head covered to show they are in submission to the word of God. Except for those limitations a woman can prophecy by declaring the existing word of God called prophecy anywhere at any time. Go out into the word and make disciples for Christ .

When a woman shares the gospel with someone today seeing new prophecy has ceased, she is prophesying. She is saved by childbirth. In the house she is equal with man you could say, as a pastor who can teach males.

It is a shame for women to speak in the church in respect to the new order just as in the same way it is a shame if she does not cover her head as a sign to the angels.

 

[John146]

I already dealt with this above! In fact, it is the KJV translators and other translators who have changed the Bible. And next time, kindly put up the reference for the verses you are posting. KJV changes it so radically, I really had to figure out what was being said! Google helped, before I realized it was what I had already written above!

Just for you, the Greek for the above verses! As I repeat before, at no place is the word "He" or autos ἀυτός (Gk) used in verses 1-7.

"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ.2 δεῖ οὖν τὸν ἐπίσκοπον ἀνεπίλημπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον, φιλόξενον, διδακτικόν,3 μὴ πάροινον, μὴ πλήκτην, ἀλλὰ ἐπιεικῆ, ἄμαχον, ἀφιλάργυρον,4 τοῦ ἰδίου οἴκου καλῶς προϊστάμενον, τέκνα ἔχοντα ἐν ὑποταγῇ μετὰ πάσης σεμνότητος·5 (εἰ δέ τις τοῦ ἰδίου οἴκου προστῆναι οὐκ οἶδεν, πῶς ἐκκλησίας θεοῦ ἐπιμελήσεται6 μὴ νεόφυτον, ἵνα μὴ τυφωθεὶς εἰς κρίμα ἐμπέσῃ τοῦ διαβόλου.7 δεῖ δὲ καὶ μαρτυρίαν καλὴν ἔχειν ἀπὸ τῶν ἔξωθεν, ἵνα μὴ εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν ἐμπέσῃ καὶ παγίδα τοῦ διαβόλου." 1 Tom. 3:1-7

Verse 1
KJV says man, according to your bolded portion above. Man in Greek is aner ἀνέρ or andros ἀνδρός. The other word anthropos ἀνθρωπός, which really should be rendered "person, human being, humanity" was sometimes rendered as "man" in the older texts. As you can see below, verse 1 does not contain any of these words. In other words, MAN was added to the verse by the translator. Nor is "he" in the text which is the the word autos or ἀυτός in Greek. So two words down. The verse is mistranslated to reflect the opinion of King James, who was following in the shadow of the greatest monarch England ever had. Queen Elizabeth I. He did not want women to be in control, perhaps was even terrified of the incredible things Elizabeth did for England during her reign.

"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ." 1 Tim. 3:1

Verse 2
The second verse rightly refers to men who want to be an overseer, who have more than one wife. The New Testament is clear, especially in verses like this, that men are not to be polygamous, but rather to have one wife. Why were the women not addressed in this verse? I can only suppose that they did not have more than one husband, as polyandry was rare in the Greek societies.

Verse 3 - no words pertaining to any gender, we can agree on that.

Verse 4
"One that ruleth "HIS" house well". There is simply no word for "his" which could be autou άυτοῦ. Τhis is the genitive possessive, and does not appear in the sentence below the first part of the verse reads: "of one's own house." No word "HIS" in verse 4 in the Greek. All neutral!

"4 τοῦ ἰδίου οἴκου καλῶς προϊστάμενον, τέκνα ἔχοντα ἐν ὑποταγῇ μετὰ πάσης σεμνότητος" 1 Tim. 3:4

Verse 5
KJV - A MAN does not.... HIS house. The verse in Greek.

"(εἰ δέ τις τοῦ ἰδίου οἴκου προστῆναι οὐκ οἶδεν, πῶς ἐκκλησίας θεοῦ ἐπιμελήσεται"

Notice, once again, the words for man does not appear in the verse above (aner or andros) Instead, the impersonal adjective tis, or τις appears. Tis is a neuter word, meaning "someone, anyone, a certain one." So the first part of verse 5 should read, "But if someone does not know to rule/manage one's own house."

The second half should read "How will "he, she or it" care for the church of God?" The "he, she or it," is the technical translation of the noun reference in word epimelesatai, which is third person singular. Of course, it would not mean "it," because people have gender, however, he or she are both correct. But you cannot pick he, and not acknowledge that she is just as valid a translation.

Verse 6 - no words which refer to gender.

Verse 7 - KJV says "Moreover HE" however, verse 7 again, does not contain the word autos in the Greek. It does not refer to ANY GENDER.

"δεῖ δὲ καὶ μαρτυρίαν καλὴν ἔχειν ἀπὸ τῶν ἔξωθεν, ἵνα μὴ εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν ἐμπέσῃ καὶ παγίδα τοῦ διαβόλου.""

"But it is necessary also to have a good witness/reputation among outsiders, so that he/she will not fall into reproach [which is] also the snare of the devil." 1 Tim. 3:7 (my literal translation) See also Mounce's Reverse-Interlinear NT. (Bible gateway.com) [] indicate added necessary English words, because the "is" or estin ἐστίν is understood in Greek.

This the literal translation. Since no mention has been made of a man being the person referred to in verses 1-6, it would not be good Greek to suddenly add a "he" when the entire passage has been neutral.


And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word "autos" (αὐτὸς) which is a close to the pronoun, HE, as you can get in Greek, does NOT appear at all in verses 1-7 nor man- aner ἀνέρor androsἀνδρός.. In addition, it talks about "deacons" in" verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. Τhe ESV translates it as thus:

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV

But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no "THEIR" in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons" or "their wives." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!

The NIV comes much closer with:

In the same way, the women(deaconesses?) are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV

As for 1 Tim. 3:2 "husband of one wife" is an admonition to the men who want to help out in ministry to NOT have more than one wife. It is simply not a prohibition that only men are allowed to be deacons."


Finally, verse 1 Tim. 3:12

"διάκονοι ἔστωσαν μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρες, τέκνων καλῶς προϊστάμενοι καὶ τῶν ἰδίων οἴκων·" 1 Tim. 3:12

Estosan or ἔστωσαν is the εἰμί, third person plural, present imperative active. Thus, the men deacons are commanded to only have one wife. This seems to be a repeated theme with Paul. The only time he mentions gender, is when it concerns men who are deacons having more than one wife (verses 3 & 12). A definite admonishment to men who are deacons. And women obviously not needing such a warning, as I said before.

So, this entire passage does not contain one word saying men can be only deacons, although I can see how one would be fooled after reading a bad translation, which actually changes the Bible from being neutral with respect to gender where deacons are concerned, and constantly inserting words like "man" "he" and "his." I hope this helps you John, and the others who are confused by wrong translations of the Greek.

And if you don't believe me, feel free to find a Greek translator, and see what they say about the actual words written here. I assure you, I use all the usual Greek tools - Bauer (BDAG) Greek/English Lexicon, and various other tools to say nothing of my study of Greek.

Ah, once again, the ole I've been to seminary and learned to be a Bible corrector instead of a Bible believer answer. When the Bible goes against my theology, go to the Greek and change the Bible to fit my theology.

By the way, your explanation is what homosexual pastors use to be married and pastor a church.

 

[LaurenTM]

I am completely familiar with how husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church from Ephesions 5, and I absolutely don't treat women as barbie dolls.

Does humanity still suffer from those original sins from Genesis?
Does the serpent still bound to his belly?
Do women still have pain during childbearing?
Does the land still bring forth thorns and thistles
do we still eat by "the sweat of your face"?

Those are all things that were brought about by those sins in Gen 3, I absolutely understand that under Christ we are forgiven all sin, but still our broken world still suffers because of it. Jesus himself referred back to the old testament at times, and we are given the old testament to study the history and to learn of Gods relationship with people throughout history, this is part of the history.

This is absolutely off topic, and I believe that the scriptures that I have posted are absolutely relevant to the topic. I will not argue another word from you or with you in any way, you can bring your attacks somewhere else.

Thanks again

who said anything about arguing? not me...this is a discussion forum

you are in the wrong place if you think a common disagreement is an argument

of course you believe the verses that only tell HALF the truth are relevant

get some understanding...you cannot post HALF a truth and then say you rest your case

did God leave Adam & Eve in their exile and hopeless state or did he promise salvation?

that is not an argument...it is the simple truth and if you cannot see that, then you are in for a rough ride in this forum

 

[LaurenTM]

You will answer to God and He has made it clear in scripture that He does not want a woman in a position of authority over men in the church. I cannot imagine a woman of God deciding to go against God in order to serve God...if you want to serve God do what He says, to obey is BETTER then to sacrifice. A desire to be over others is usually from the flesh.

ironic

Women are certainly equal to men in spiritual matters, however that is not the issue, we are dealing with GOD. Only males were allowed to be priest, does that not tell you something? The twelve apostles were all males, does that not tell you something? When God says through Paul that women are not to be in authority over men in the church then it is not a question open to debate, one either obeys God or disobeys God.

so kind of you to allow for that

consider the world 2000 years ago...women were often no more than chattel

it seems some Christian men would prefer that while mouthing religious phrases and hiding behind scripture

of course the disciples were all male...it was an all male world

gee...boy howdy are we women ever privileged to vote! and change your diapers when you mess 'em

and I can hardly believe I wrote that last sentence...I must be fed up with religion or something

 

[p_rehbein]

Some do, mayhaps, many do, but not all..............too broad brush for me........just saying.

I know three, no, four Pastors who are wonderful Marriage Counselors. And not only for their own Congregations. Some people travel some distance to seek their Counseling.

The thing folks do not realize about Pastors is........they also are bestowed certain gifts. Some are wonderful at preaching the Word, but may not be great in other areas. Some are great at Church Building, but may not be great at ministering to the needs of the Congregation. Some are wonderful at Spiritual discernment and guidance, but may not be great as Administrators. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. What I have seen on more than one occasion is God place a Pastor in a certain Congregation which is in need of the gift that Pastor is best in.

Once their God given mission if filled, He may well lead them to another Congregation, and a new Pastor come in who has the gift to continue in the growth of that particular Congregation. God is truly in charge, and knows what is best for His Church.

Believe it or not he was married. I have just found that pastors dont make good marriage counselors. Not according to what Ive seen with family and friends.

 

[LaurenTM]

Agreed, it's not about my view, your view, Angela's view or anybody else's view...it's about what God has said.

that is about as believable as a woman becoming a judge of the entire United States because of the book of Judges

such hypocrisy

 

[PeterJens]

Sexism - At what point does a woman no longer have authority over a man.

A mother instructs their son. The basis is not sexist but based on experience.
For instance in cooking mothers often are very skilled and the men not.
So if the man wants to cook they need to take instruction from a woman.

So equally in any subject or skill, the skilled person instructs the unskilled.

So in Pauls day who were skilled, educated, able to discuss or argue points?
The men, because women were not deemed worthy of education. So in response
to this cultural reality, it would be reasonable to bias men over women.

Today this is no longer true. And we value content not the sex of the person
who delivers it.

 

[LaurenTM]

You will answer to God and He has made it clear in scripture that He does not want a woman in a position of authority over men in the church. I cannot imagine a woman of God deciding to go against God in order to serve God...if you want to serve God do what He says, to obey is BETTER then to sacrifice. A desire to be over others is usually from the flesh.

and you?

when someone pulls the YOU WILL ANSWER TO GOD CARD I totally loose all respect

that is nothing but a cheap attempt at intimidation and SO typical

and it was sketchy to begin with

 

[LaurenTM]

An issue like this separates those who really believe the bible from those who partly believe the bible. We have a very clear place in scripture that runs contrary to what our culture has been led to accept. I used to wonder about Amy McPherson, and K. Khulman. They seemed to have so much power with God...but did they really? It is a scary thing to read something clear and in context in the word of God and decide to ignore it. God has said, let not a woman have authority over a man in the church. It could never be worth it for a woman to ignore what God has said. Can you disobey God in order to serve God better?

nope

what actually happens, is it demonstrates those who manipulate and those who actually try to understand

and you cannot stand the fact that women are on here who disagree with your posts

you think you are judging everyone in the world here?

you might swing weight in your own home, but not here

we ALL answer to God and not because YOU say so...the issue as others see it, is the desire to rule all right...but men over women...

I'm married...I don't want to rule over anyone but the struggle for women and especially in many churches, are the dogmatic men who make authoritative statements that God has not made and enjoy rule by intimidation, manipulation and downright domination

you reflect those things in your posts and dead end statements like..God is gonna get you (you have to answer to God) or you don't believe the Bible and therefore you are in danger of hellfire (this issue separates those who REALLY BELIEVE)

THE ARROGANCE IS STUNNING BUT NOT SURPRISING

 

[samuel23]

Hi Magenta: Adam most definitely sinned when he disobeyed God(I don't remember saying otherwise). However the sin of Adam(according to God) was that he listened to and did what his wife told him to do. Apparently God expected Adam to take charge of the situation and prevent his wife from following Satan, this is evident because the first person that God came to because of disobedience was Adam. God saw Adam as being in charge, not Eve. Another note, Phoebe was actually a "servant" that was not a title as was overseer. If Paul had used the word overseer that would make the point that women can be over men in the church even through it would contradict the other position of Paul about women not being in authority over men in the church. I love the story about Mary Magdalene because it demonstrates God's love for those who love Him, however God is a God of order and He has spoken through His apostle Paul that women are not to be over men in the church.

 

[p_rehbein]

You left out Deborah and Priscilla.............just saying.........

Hi Magenta: Adam most definitely sinned when he disobeyed God(I don't remember saying otherwise). However the sin of Adam(according to God) was that he listened to and did what his wife told him to do. Apparently God expected Adam to take charge of the situation and prevent his wife from following Satan, this is evident because the first person that God came to because of disobedience was Adam. God saw Adam as being in charge, not Eve. Another note, Phoebe was actually a "servant" that was not a title as was overseer. If Paul had used the word overseer that would make the point that women can be over men in the church even through it would contradict the other position of Paul about women not being in authority over men in the church. I love the story about Mary Magdalene because it demonstrates God's love for those who love Him, however God is a God of order and He has spoken through His apostle Paul that women are not to be over men in the church.

 

[EarsToHear]

Acts 21:9 And the same man (Philip) had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.


Philip had four daughters and now pay special attention what these daughters did. They prophesied. Today many say that there is no way a woman is to preach in a church, they are supposed to keep quiet in the church. Well, Philip was one of the chosen by the Apostles, that walked and talked with God, and was to be one of the administrators of the Church from the beginning, and has taught all four of his virgin daughters the Word and they prophesy through the Holy Spirit.


God used those four women, and God will use whomever He pleases, and directs them to speak to people where ever He leads them. If a man chooses to ignore a prophecy from God, that will be his loss. Women should pay attention to these scriptures where God favors His servants, especially when they are direct to the ladies. Then when some old duffer tries to put you on a trip, prod him a little with the Word of God. God gives gifts to different members of the body of Christ, and He is not a respecter of persons. He knows who can get His job done for Him, and who will waste those gifts. And if we take a close look into the church world today, we will see that much of the work that needs to get done is done by the ladies.


Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


What is going to happen in their speaking in cloven tongues by the Holy Spirit, shall come to pass in the last generation. It is God that will pour out His Spirit, the Holy Spirit on all flesh. Then Peter told them that "your daughters would prophecy in church", and can't you see all those old men choking and gasping for air when the words were spoken. Women shall prophesy, they shall preach and teach from the Word of God. Now that isn't to confusing, is it.


Well if you were living two thousand years ago on Pentecost day, it would have been earthshaking. Friend, this is what Joel said, and what Peter just repeated. It is found in Joel 2:28-32.


Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


After the northern army comes lead by Antichrist. "My Spirit" is the Spirit of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit. It is what the People will say on Pentecost day, during the time of this filling of the Holy Spirit. Here the daughters are mentioned again. Friend, listen to what God's Word has to say and shut off the turkey callers. It is absolute, the daughters shall prophesy in the church right along with the sons.


This was the message that was given two thousand years ago also, and it was a sample of what would happen in our generation.

 

[samuel23]

Lauren: You are missing the point(maybe because you want to), we did not create ourselves, we are a creation by a Person, He created the man first, and then He created a mate for Him, a woman. Because of this God has placed certain things in order, only men were priests, only men were apostles, and women were not to be over men in the church. When I come on a forum or talk to people I always warn then about the consequences of disobeying a clear command from God as recorded in scripture, it does not matter what the subject is.