Women Pastors? Help me.
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See here? This is the problem with our position. (Hey. Let's face it. The overall church has already decided women can be, and are, pastors, so we're the ones that need to defend.) If we keep giving verses that don't say anything -- one way or the other -- then we're kind of fluffing up the very few references that are in there about it. And then people go off and think we're standing on opinion, instead of Bible.
You've used three verses so far, and two don't really seem to say anything about women as pastors.
The reason I'm in this debate is because I'm kind of like Angela. Both of us had decided a path to take that is something a Christian woman has to study before deciding if it should be taken. (She had it in her heart to be a pastor. I had it in my heart to be a Christian counselor.) We really did have to consult the Bible to see if our decision matched with God's word. And we did.
The big difference is what way we went after studying. She believes God gave her the go-ahead to become a pastor. I believe God didn't give me the go-ahead to be a counselor. (That would include counseling husbands and fathers, which I believe I shouldn't.) I don't think either of us made the wrong decision, nor did we decide it lightly.
But our studies really did come up with different understanding. I just don't want the understanding of why I believe what I believe to be fluffed up with verses that don't fit in with the topic. It's a very small portion of the Bible, so if we're going to defend, it's important to take it to related verses.
(I also don't think this topic should divide the church. God still works out all things to his people's good and his glory.)
You've used three verses so far, and two don't really seem to say anything about women as pastors.
The reason I'm in this debate is because I'm kind of like Angela. Both of us had decided a path to take that is something a Christian woman has to study before deciding if it should be taken. (She had it in her heart to be a pastor. I had it in my heart to be a Christian counselor.) We really did have to consult the Bible to see if our decision matched with God's word. And we did.
The big difference is what way we went after studying. She believes God gave her the go-ahead to become a pastor. I believe God didn't give me the go-ahead to be a counselor. (That would include counseling husbands and fathers, which I believe I shouldn't.) I don't think either of us made the wrong decision, nor did we decide it lightly.
But our studies really did come up with different understanding. I just don't want the understanding of why I believe what I believe to be fluffed up with verses that don't fit in with the topic. It's a very small portion of the Bible, so if we're going to defend, it's important to take it to related verses.
(I also don't think this topic should divide the church. God still works out all things to his people's good and his glory.)
1 Timothy 3
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
These are prerequisites for pastors. The man is head of his house as Christ is the church. So the man must first rule his own house well before being concerned with the house of God.
Where are the rules for the women pastors? She must be the wife of one husband? It's just not Scriptural.
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
These are prerequisites for pastors. The man is head of his house as Christ is the church. So the man must first rule his own house well before being concerned with the house of God.
Where are the rules for the women pastors? She must be the wife of one husband? It's just not Scriptural.
I hope nobody is taking me as being argumentative, because I am not, I'm only trying to provide my point of view based on scripture. I personally wish that women were permitted to teach, because Ive heard some of the most brilliant things said from women. I'm definitely not saying that women are in any way incapable of being good leaders or good ministers/preachers. But I simply choose the very plain message from what I can read in the bible.
I believe that 1 Timothy 2:11-12 is so very clear on the subject.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet
I also don't think it matters if a woman is married or single.I know its unpopular, but I still think its clear. I realize that everyone is just going to think what they want anyway haha
I believe that 1 Timothy 2:11-12 is so very clear on the subject.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet
I also don't think it matters if a woman is married or single.I know its unpopular, but I still think its clear. I realize that everyone is just going to think what they want anyway haha
L
no you are not giving supporting scripture for your viewpoint
you present a portion of the events in the garden...you leave out the solution provided by God
even so, if you have to reach back to Genesis, it appears you prefer to stay in basics 101 or perhaps are unawares of your surroundings...OT first book? there are 65 others some of which comprise the NT
did I mention or say I care whether or not you love all women?
see, I don't care about that...I care about people ripping verses out of context and applying them to a prejudice that pops up whether or not they care to admit it
I mean if you really want to get into it...then head on over to the NT and tell us how husbands should love their wives and let us explore how Christians are supposed to defer to each other...don't just tell us that men lead and women secede and become barbie dolls once they are married...that's not a Christian marriage
God will use whom he chooses to use and the fruits show if God chose the person or not. Since she produced so much fruit I would say she was called to be a pastor regardless if people think it's against scripture or not. Often times we only look at the first layer of a scripture and take it at that when in fact there is a deeper layer to reach to understand it's meaning and call me crazy but I don't think the scripture means what people make it out to mean
I am completely familiar with how husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church from Ephesions 5, and I absolutely don't treat women as barbie dolls.
Does humanity still suffer from those original sins from Genesis?
Does the serpent still bound to his belly?
Do women still have pain during childbearing?
Does the land still bring forth thorns and thistles
do we still eat by "the sweat of your face"?
Those are all things that were brought about by those sins in Gen 3, I absolutely understand that under Christ we are forgiven all sin, but still our broken world still suffers because of it. Jesus himself referred back to the old testament at times, and we are given the old testament to study the history and to learn of Gods relationship with people throughout history, this is part of the history.
This is absolutely off topic, and I believe that the scriptures that I have posted are absolutely relevant to the topic. I will not argue another word from you or with you in any way, you can bring your attacks somewhere else.
Thanks again
Does humanity still suffer from those original sins from Genesis?
Does the serpent still bound to his belly?
Do women still have pain during childbearing?
Does the land still bring forth thorns and thistles
do we still eat by "the sweat of your face"?
Those are all things that were brought about by those sins in Gen 3, I absolutely understand that under Christ we are forgiven all sin, but still our broken world still suffers because of it. Jesus himself referred back to the old testament at times, and we are given the old testament to study the history and to learn of Gods relationship with people throughout history, this is part of the history.
This is absolutely off topic, and I believe that the scriptures that I have posted are absolutely relevant to the topic. I will not argue another word from you or with you in any way, you can bring your attacks somewhere else.
Thanks again
If your small child ate a large bagful of candy, and you told him, "You're going to get sick!" would that be a curse or a statement of likely consequence?
God's statements to Adam and Eve, as quoted above, were statements of consequence, not curse. He cursed the serpent and the ground. Why would God is His great wisdom assign now-sinful man to be in charge of woman? That is contrary to His goodness. It makes much more sense to me that God is saying to Eve, "Sinful man is going to rule over woman anyway". There is nothing in the text to say that God approves of this, any more than He "approves" of painful childbirth. We live in a fallen world.
So, instead of making grandiose statement about twisting scripture, perhaps you could consider this perspective. It makes a significant difference in how you interpret every other passage about women.
God's statements to Adam and Eve, as quoted above, were statements of consequence, not curse. He cursed the serpent and the ground. Why would God is His great wisdom assign now-sinful man to be in charge of woman? That is contrary to His goodness. It makes much more sense to me that God is saying to Eve, "Sinful man is going to rule over woman anyway". There is nothing in the text to say that God approves of this, any more than He "approves" of painful childbirth. We live in a fallen world.
So, instead of making grandiose statement about twisting scripture, perhaps you could consider this perspective. It makes a significant difference in how you interpret every other passage about women.
I should inform people who do not know, that I am an ordained pastor. I preach and teach in my church. My last sermon touched many people, particularly with regards to the important of repentance in our Christian walk. I am a volunteer at this point. I was a chaplain for a while, till I ended up in another med failure, which I hope and pray, I am at the end of.
A few comments. First regarding the "helpmeet" in the Bible, and what Ezer really means in the OT, including Genesis 2:18. (This is put together from some other posts I have made)
"the word עזר or "ezer" often translated "helpmeet" from the Hebrew in Gen. 2:18 - It appears 21 times in the Old Testament. Two times it is in Genesis for the woman (Gen. 2:18, 20). three times for nations to whom Israel appealed for military aid. (Isa. 30:5, Eze. 12:14, Daniel 11:34),
and SIXTEEN TIMES for God as Israel's helper. (Exodus 18:4, Deut. 33:7, 26, 29, Psalms 20:2, 33:20, 70:5, 89:19 (translated STRENGTH) in NIV; 115:9, 10, 11; 121:1-2; 124:8; 146:5; Hosea 13:9.
So rather than the word being translated Helper, a better translation would be STRONG helper! Ezer is used in a military context, "shield and defense," "better than chariots and horses," "Sentry watch over his people."
Even Eden fits this pattern, because truly the Garden of Eden was a war zone. God commanded the man to keep or guard the garden by using the same military language later used for the cherubim who guarded the garden with a flaming sword. The reason, of course, is that a powerful enemy was already planning an attack.
God created his daughters to be ezer-warriors with our brothers. God deploys the ezer to break the man's aloneness by soldiering with him wholeheartedly and at full strength for God's gracious kingdom. As ezer-warriors, we must be strong, resourceful, alert to the cries of the needy and oppressed. Other verses that support the ezer-warrior image, include Ruth and the Proverbs 31 woman, and all believers are told to "put on the armour of God" in Eph. 6:10-17, not just the men.
Thinking of ezer as a warrior is entirely consistent with how Scripture views us. If you do not understand this concept, that is ok, but don't go telling women they are to give up their calling to fight against the enemy and for God and his justice, or you will be the one sinning against God.
A few comments. First regarding the "helpmeet" in the Bible, and what Ezer really means in the OT, including Genesis 2:18. (This is put together from some other posts I have made)
"the word עזר or "ezer" often translated "helpmeet" from the Hebrew in Gen. 2:18 - It appears 21 times in the Old Testament. Two times it is in Genesis for the woman (Gen. 2:18, 20). three times for nations to whom Israel appealed for military aid. (Isa. 30:5, Eze. 12:14, Daniel 11:34),
and SIXTEEN TIMES for God as Israel's helper. (Exodus 18:4, Deut. 33:7, 26, 29, Psalms 20:2, 33:20, 70:5, 89:19 (translated STRENGTH) in NIV; 115:9, 10, 11; 121:1-2; 124:8; 146:5; Hosea 13:9.
So rather than the word being translated Helper, a better translation would be STRONG helper! Ezer is used in a military context, "shield and defense," "better than chariots and horses," "Sentry watch over his people."
Even Eden fits this pattern, because truly the Garden of Eden was a war zone. God commanded the man to keep or guard the garden by using the same military language later used for the cherubim who guarded the garden with a flaming sword. The reason, of course, is that a powerful enemy was already planning an attack.
God created his daughters to be ezer-warriors with our brothers. God deploys the ezer to break the man's aloneness by soldiering with him wholeheartedly and at full strength for God's gracious kingdom. As ezer-warriors, we must be strong, resourceful, alert to the cries of the needy and oppressed. Other verses that support the ezer-warrior image, include Ruth and the Proverbs 31 woman, and all believers are told to "put on the armour of God" in Eph. 6:10-17, not just the men.
Thinking of ezer as a warrior is entirely consistent with how Scripture views us. If you do not understand this concept, that is ok, but don't go telling women they are to give up their calling to fight against the enemy and for God and his justice, or you will be the one sinning against God.
A little more about me. I raised 4 children, played mommy, but always kept my job teaching. God called me to Seminary, both before and after I became chronically ill. I disobeyed the first time he called me, and got seriously ill. So the next time God called me, when the RA was better controlled, I defied my pastor, denomination and my husband. (Although I did not attend till I had his approval, because going to seminary was a major task, and affected both of us. Before this, I was told by my husband that only men were in charge. He has since realized he sinned against God in holding me back in my calling.
Formerly as a chaplain and now on the preaching team at my church, I preach to men and women all the time, and so far, people have been encouraged, and God is making my calling of helping the broken and hurting more and more real all the time - and reaching people with the gospel at the hardest time in their life! And also in being a solid member in our church who can be counted upon to bring a Word from God in my preaching, as many have told me!
Well, anyway, God did not want me to be in charge - he wanted me to be a servant, just like him!
"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [SUP]6 [/SUP]who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, [SUP]7 [/SUP]but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Phil. 2:5-8
And he wants all people to be a servants. As for authority, the only true authority is Christ.
"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this." Isa. 9:6-7
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land." Jer. 23:5
"For in him [Christ] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority." Col. 2:9
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
Notice, Jesus says the authority has been given to him, not men or women, or pastors, or priests. Jesus is the one we have to obey. It is better to obey God than man!
As for the Proverbs 31 women, I have preached from that text before. Please read the whole thing. Besides taking care of her family, she has a business, she works what appears to be 24/7, and she seems to run a vineyard on the side, besides making all her clothes and her family's and the food they eat. The husband appears to sit around the gates and not do too much, from the information we get. (Just joking, but I always find the reference to the man to be sitting at the gates, while she works to be a pretty amusing insight as to who did the work in ancient Israel!!)
The real purpose of Proverbs 31, is verse 30:
"Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain,
but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised."
Fearing the Lord!!! Not fearing man, nor woman, nor her husband, nor elders, or bishops or overseers, but God alone. Jesus is the only one with authority over any Christian - man and woman. And that is something I think many who pull two verses out of context to support their idea that a woman is to be under the man, when in fact, she is to be under the authority of Christ.
Let me put it this way. We shall all appear before the judgement seat of Christ. We shall be like the angels in heaven, in that we will not be marrying, or given away in marriage.
"Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” Matt 22:29-32
In other word, on judgement day will judged by our standing with Christ, and our rewards will be based on the work we have done for God.
I realize some here might just be running a home. And that can also be a calling from God. But sadly, male authority over women, leads to abuse and domineering. I have read too many stories of abused women running from their husbands, including pastors, who were abusers. So if you are in that situation, with a domineering husband who is abusing you, contact me by pm and we will work on getting you help together.
As for the men, who are loving their wives, in the sense of putting their wives first, well, bless you!
So what do you do with the word "Authority" in 1 Tim 2:12? See my next post!
Formerly as a chaplain and now on the preaching team at my church, I preach to men and women all the time, and so far, people have been encouraged, and God is making my calling of helping the broken and hurting more and more real all the time - and reaching people with the gospel at the hardest time in their life! And also in being a solid member in our church who can be counted upon to bring a Word from God in my preaching, as many have told me!
Well, anyway, God did not want me to be in charge - he wanted me to be a servant, just like him!
"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [SUP]6 [/SUP]who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, [SUP]7 [/SUP]but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Phil. 2:5-8
And he wants all people to be a servants. As for authority, the only true authority is Christ.
"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this." Isa. 9:6-7
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land." Jer. 23:5
"For in him [Christ] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority." Col. 2:9
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
Notice, Jesus says the authority has been given to him, not men or women, or pastors, or priests. Jesus is the one we have to obey. It is better to obey God than man!
As for the Proverbs 31 women, I have preached from that text before. Please read the whole thing. Besides taking care of her family, she has a business, she works what appears to be 24/7, and she seems to run a vineyard on the side, besides making all her clothes and her family's and the food they eat. The husband appears to sit around the gates and not do too much, from the information we get. (Just joking, but I always find the reference to the man to be sitting at the gates, while she works to be a pretty amusing insight as to who did the work in ancient Israel!!)
The real purpose of Proverbs 31, is verse 30:
"Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain,
but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised."
Fearing the Lord!!! Not fearing man, nor woman, nor her husband, nor elders, or bishops or overseers, but God alone. Jesus is the only one with authority over any Christian - man and woman. And that is something I think many who pull two verses out of context to support their idea that a woman is to be under the man, when in fact, she is to be under the authority of Christ.
Let me put it this way. We shall all appear before the judgement seat of Christ. We shall be like the angels in heaven, in that we will not be marrying, or given away in marriage.
"Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” Matt 22:29-32
In other word, on judgement day will judged by our standing with Christ, and our rewards will be based on the work we have done for God.
I realize some here might just be running a home. And that can also be a calling from God. But sadly, male authority over women, leads to abuse and domineering. I have read too many stories of abused women running from their husbands, including pastors, who were abusers. So if you are in that situation, with a domineering husband who is abusing you, contact me by pm and we will work on getting you help together.
As for the men, who are loving their wives, in the sense of putting their wives first, well, bless you!
So what do you do with the word "Authority" in 1 Tim 2:12? See my next post!
So many aspire to lead yet they are no further on than the people they are preaching to.
Jesus was our servant, our giver of light and life, who gave His life for us.
It is hard to follow after such a man, and harder still to be an example others can follow.
I have seen a few men aspire and get it very wrong and fall into flawed adultery and broken
families. It is brutal if you want to stand up and shine a light if there is still darkness in ones
own life. And these failures cannot be undone, you live with them till you die.
The problem with ministry is once in many find it hard to get out, even though it is obviously
time.
Jesus was our servant, our giver of light and life, who gave His life for us.
It is hard to follow after such a man, and harder still to be an example others can follow.
I have seen a few men aspire and get it very wrong and fall into flawed adultery and broken
families. It is brutal if you want to stand up and shine a light if there is still darkness in ones
own life. And these failures cannot be undone, you live with them till you die.
The problem with ministry is once in many find it hard to get out, even though it is obviously
time.
When one looks a little deeper into this subject of Phoebe - we find that she was in fact a leader in the body of Christ and Paul seems to be saying that she at one point was leading him as well in some capacity. ( I know this is very shocking to some of our church teachings and interpretations of some scriptures )
It's in the word "helper".
Romans 16:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;
[SUP]2 [/SUP] that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.
Phoebe as a leader (prostatis) in a local church? The word "helper" is the greek word - prostatis.
Romans 16:2 provides us with one more important piece of information about Phoebe that often tends to disap­pear in translation. There Paul calls Phoebe
prostatis, literally, “the one who stands before.”.
The most interesting line of evidence, however, suggesting that Phoebe might have been much more than just a helper, comes from Paul’s own writings. While prostatis as a noun occurs only once in the New Testament, its other forms, such as proistemi, appear several times.
The first time prostatis appears in the New Testament in another form is in Romans 12:8 in Paul’s list of gifts from the Holy Spirit: “if it is to lead [proistamenos], do it diligently.” Speaking of elders, Paul encourages the Thessalonians “to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you [proista­menous] in the Lord” (1 Thess. 5:12).
Most importantly, in 1 Timothy 5:17, Paul uses the verb form of prostatis when he writes, “The elders [proestotes presbuteroi, i.e., “those elders who stand before”] who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.”
Here is the link for this excellent article. It also shows where the word "helper-prostatis" was used in secular literature as meaning those that have a leadership position. ( gasp! - our sacred cows are starting to moo...sorry - I couldn't help myself... )
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/04/phoebe-was-she-an-early-church-leader
Here is another source.
In Romans 16:2, another Greek word is used to describe Phoebe’s role in the church. She is referred to as a “prostatis.” NKJV translates this word regarding Phoebe as “helper”. When similar Greek words are used of men, however, they are translated as “ruling” (1 Timothy 5:17, 1 Timothy 3:4, NKJV). In Romans 12:8, the word is translated as “leading” (NKJV).
Lost In Translation: Phoebe, Servant or Minister? - The Junia Project
It's in the word "helper".
Romans 16:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;
[SUP]2 [/SUP] that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.
Phoebe as a leader (prostatis) in a local church? The word "helper" is the greek word - prostatis.
Romans 16:2 provides us with one more important piece of information about Phoebe that often tends to disap­pear in translation. There Paul calls Phoebe
prostatis, literally, “the one who stands before.”.
The most interesting line of evidence, however, suggesting that Phoebe might have been much more than just a helper, comes from Paul’s own writings. While prostatis as a noun occurs only once in the New Testament, its other forms, such as proistemi, appear several times.
The first time prostatis appears in the New Testament in another form is in Romans 12:8 in Paul’s list of gifts from the Holy Spirit: “if it is to lead [proistamenos], do it diligently.” Speaking of elders, Paul encourages the Thessalonians “to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you [proista­menous] in the Lord” (1 Thess. 5:12).
Most importantly, in 1 Timothy 5:17, Paul uses the verb form of prostatis when he writes, “The elders [proestotes presbuteroi, i.e., “those elders who stand before”] who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.”
Here is the link for this excellent article. It also shows where the word "helper-prostatis" was used in secular literature as meaning those that have a leadership position. ( gasp! - our sacred cows are starting to moo...sorry - I couldn't help myself...
)https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/04/phoebe-was-she-an-early-church-leader
Here is another source.
In Romans 16:2, another Greek word is used to describe Phoebe’s role in the church. She is referred to as a “prostatis.” NKJV translates this word regarding Phoebe as “helper”. When similar Greek words are used of men, however, they are translated as “ruling” (1 Timothy 5:17, 1 Timothy 3:4, NKJV). In Romans 12:8, the word is translated as “leading” (NKJV).
Lost In Translation: Phoebe, Servant or Minister? - The Junia Project
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Regarding "authority" and various other selected verses, which people have chosen to post in this thread. These are the things God revealed to me in Seminary. I was reading the verse below, 1 Tim. 2:12, in my daily Bible reading, and I felt hurt and overwhelmed. Why would God call me to Seminary, and then not use me? It made no sense. I cried out to God, and the next day, I stopped in at a used bookstore, and God led me to 3 books on women in ministry.
Since then, I have accumulated many more books and scholarly articles. Those first three books explained the Greek, which I did not yet read, although my Greek studies have confirmed the truth of the way we are to read these disputed verses. Quite simply, there was an agenda when the KJV and many modern verses were translated. And that means some twisting in the translation process to make it say what God never meant it to say.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12
The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena in Greek. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia. (The word used in Matt 28:18)
Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.
The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have read, authentein means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's anointing, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.
The best translation, which takes into account the infinitive status of authentein "to domineer' as opposed to turning into a noun, and having to add an extraneous verb like "exercise," for the verse to make sense. Authentein is not a substantive, and there is no justification for adding a verb that is not even in the verse.
"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to domineer over a man, rather, she is to remain silent." 1 Tim. 2:12 (my translation!)
Further, the word "silent" or ἡσυχίᾳ in this verse, is the same word the rabbis used when teacher their students. They were not allowed to teach, and were to remain silent. In other words, Paul is following the rabbinic tradition, and saying the women are not ready to teach, and they need to stop domineering men.
Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)
Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.
So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!
So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia. Instead, he was giving instructions for Timothy to take these new women converts in hand, and get them to listen and learn. Maybe later, some of them could be preachers and evangelists. Prisca was certainly a teacher of the word. Why would Paul commend her, if he wanted her to be permanently silent? It makes absolutely no sense!
"Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus." Romans 16:3
Note that Prisca or Priscilla is listed first, and in 6 other passages. (Acts 18:18, 19, 26, Romans 16:3, and 1 Tim. 4:19) Aquila is only listed first once in 1 Cor. 16:19. The person that was mentioned first, in Roman and Greek tradition, is the stronger partner or the one in charge. Prisca must have been a very knowledge woman concerning the Word of God, including the New Testament and spreading the gospel.
And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word "autos" (αὐτὸς) which is a close to the pronoun, HE, as you can get in Greek, does NOT appear at all in verses 1-7. In addition, it talks about "deacons" in" verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. Τhe ESV translates it as thus:
"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV
But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no "THEIR" in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons" or "their wives." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!
The NIV comes much closer with:
In the same way, the women(deaconesses?) are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV
As for 1 Tim. 3:2 "husband of one wife" is an admonition to the men who want to help out in ministry to NOT have more than one wife. It is simply not a prohibition that only men are allowed to be deacons.
If anyone is interested, I can parse the above verse in Greek, and explain what it means. And other verses!
As far as the office of pastor, I have yet to see anyone post a qualification for that office.
The big reference is Eph. 4:11:
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13
There is no place in the entire chapter that Paul says only men can hold these positions. In fact, the Greek uses the word "Some" or τοϋς, which definitely includes both genders!! In addition, the word "pastor" does not actually appear in this verse. The word is ποιμένας or poimenas in this case. It means "shepherd"
So that is the low down. Once again, the Greek has nothing against women being pastors. The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.
Really, what it really comes back to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ!
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
As for me, I will continue to serve God however he calls me. He has given me gifts, called me and used me in so many ways. Why would I care what bad translations, and certain men who cling to wrong translations think? I am answerable to Christ, and I pray that he will use me, an obedient servant till the day I die.
PS Sorry for such a long post. I could not figure out a way to break it up!
Since then, I have accumulated many more books and scholarly articles. Those first three books explained the Greek, which I did not yet read, although my Greek studies have confirmed the truth of the way we are to read these disputed verses. Quite simply, there was an agenda when the KJV and many modern verses were translated. And that means some twisting in the translation process to make it say what God never meant it to say.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12
The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena in Greek. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia. (The word used in Matt 28:18)
Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.
The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have read, authentein means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's anointing, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.
The best translation, which takes into account the infinitive status of authentein "to domineer' as opposed to turning into a noun, and having to add an extraneous verb like "exercise," for the verse to make sense. Authentein is not a substantive, and there is no justification for adding a verb that is not even in the verse.
"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to domineer over a man, rather, she is to remain silent." 1 Tim. 2:12 (my translation!)
Further, the word "silent" or ἡσυχίᾳ in this verse, is the same word the rabbis used when teacher their students. They were not allowed to teach, and were to remain silent. In other words, Paul is following the rabbinic tradition, and saying the women are not ready to teach, and they need to stop domineering men.
Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)
Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.
So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!
So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia. Instead, he was giving instructions for Timothy to take these new women converts in hand, and get them to listen and learn. Maybe later, some of them could be preachers and evangelists. Prisca was certainly a teacher of the word. Why would Paul commend her, if he wanted her to be permanently silent? It makes absolutely no sense!
"Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus." Romans 16:3
Note that Prisca or Priscilla is listed first, and in 6 other passages. (Acts 18:18, 19, 26, Romans 16:3, and 1 Tim. 4:19) Aquila is only listed first once in 1 Cor. 16:19. The person that was mentioned first, in Roman and Greek tradition, is the stronger partner or the one in charge. Prisca must have been a very knowledge woman concerning the Word of God, including the New Testament and spreading the gospel.
And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word "autos" (αὐτὸς) which is a close to the pronoun, HE, as you can get in Greek, does NOT appear at all in verses 1-7. In addition, it talks about "deacons" in" verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. Τhe ESV translates it as thus:
"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV
But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no "THEIR" in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons" or "their wives." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!
The NIV comes much closer with:
In the same way, the women(deaconesses?) are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV
As for 1 Tim. 3:2 "husband of one wife" is an admonition to the men who want to help out in ministry to NOT have more than one wife. It is simply not a prohibition that only men are allowed to be deacons.
If anyone is interested, I can parse the above verse in Greek, and explain what it means. And other verses!
As far as the office of pastor, I have yet to see anyone post a qualification for that office.
The big reference is Eph. 4:11:
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13
There is no place in the entire chapter that Paul says only men can hold these positions. In fact, the Greek uses the word "Some" or τοϋς, which definitely includes both genders!! In addition, the word "pastor" does not actually appear in this verse. The word is ποιμένας or poimenas in this case. It means "shepherd"
So that is the low down. Once again, the Greek has nothing against women being pastors. The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.
Really, what it really comes back to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ!
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
As for me, I will continue to serve God however he calls me. He has given me gifts, called me and used me in so many ways. Why would I care what bad translations, and certain men who cling to wrong translations think? I am answerable to Christ, and I pray that he will use me, an obedient servant till the day I die.
PS Sorry for such a long post. I could not figure out a way to break it up!
One argument that I've run across is that, when God has chosen a woman to fulfill a certain role or perform a certain task, it's because God looked all around and couldn't find a suitable or capable man. As if God is thinking, "well I can't find a man for the job, so a woman will have to do". I totally disagree with this assertion. I won't go as far as to say that a woman has NEVER stepped in when a man couldn't or wouldn't, but it is foolish, IMHO, to make such a sweeping generalization.
Consider all the women which God has used to accomplish His purposes, and whom He has held up as examples to follow:
Sarah
Deborah
Abigail
Miriam
Pharaoh's daughter
Esther
Rahab
Ruth
Hannah
Mary (mother of Jesus)
Elizabeth
Priscilla
Lydia
The virtuous woman (or wife) of Proverbs 31
Martha
Mary Magdalene
The woman caught in the act of adultery
Consider all the women which God has used to accomplish His purposes, and whom He has held up as examples to follow:
Sarah
Deborah
Abigail
Miriam
Pharaoh's daughter
Esther
Rahab
Ruth
Hannah
Mary (mother of Jesus)
Elizabeth
Priscilla
Lydia
The virtuous woman (or wife) of Proverbs 31
Martha
Mary Magdalene
The woman caught in the act of adultery
You will answer to God and He has made it clear in scripture that He does not want a woman in a position of authority over men in the church. I cannot imagine a woman of God deciding to go against God in order to serve God...if you want to serve God do what He says, to obey is BETTER then to sacrifice. A desire to be over others is usually from the flesh.
There you have it. When the Bible goes against what I believe then change the Bible to fit what I believe. Use other books and study materials that agree with my theology and then correct the Bible. With this perspective, we can make the Bible fit into any theology system we come up with.
What do you do with:
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
These are guidelines for men pastors. Where are the guidelines for women pastors specified in Scripture? And please, I am not saying that women are not equal or women can't be used in a mighty way in the ministry within the church, but God has set this thing up with order.
What do you do with:
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
These are guidelines for men pastors. Where are the guidelines for women pastors specified in Scripture? And please, I am not saying that women are not equal or women can't be used in a mighty way in the ministry within the church, but God has set this thing up with order.