Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Hi Lauren,

If you are talking about 1 Timothy 5:22 then I would say this is talking about ordination not praying over someone for healing.

And I agree there is emotion with some posters, but I have seen this on both sides of the fence. I have read a few of your posts where you get a bit testy as well :). But this is human nature and passion for what we believe in strongly :)

interesting how you side stepped this. I am not WoF, and even I have looked deeply into this verse! You know, the one that in Greek says that if the person is not healed, it is the fault of the elders, not the sick person. I wish this stuff came through in English. That would have stopped a lot of this WoF condemnation and judgment on sick people right back at the beginning, when this heresy started.

"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord." James 5:14
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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brother, i i just read that book, from cover to cover for the finance class they teach here. it teaches that what ever you set you hand to (work) God will help it prosper, if you trust in Him and His word (obey and believe His word), same with Kenyons writings, people need to stop judging people off of a few words out of context, and see what has been really said.

I have read Kenyon's, Hagin's and Copeland's books. I did not know the Bible well, when I read them but the Holy Spirit really convicted me of the "wrongness" that was written in them. Especially Kenyon! That was like a trip back to the New Age movement I left and repudiated when I was saved.

For me, if you want to prove something, use the Bible in context. I am not going to read the words of obvious heretics. It is bad enough reading the WoF people here, and to see the mess they make of the Bible, when they twist God's Words beyond recognition. Especially some people in this thread!

Oy, if only we could discuss the OP, and the Title of this thread - You know, what the BIBLE says! But I guess the problem is there really isn't enough Scripture to back any of the WoF claims, so they are loath to discuss it for that reason. Very sad!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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Wow...can we disagree with people, without calling them stupid?

Matthew 5:22 ►
New International Version
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Ariel, I love your posts, but he did not say anyone was stupid. He said WoF was stupid. And correspondingly, people who follow it are ignorant of the Bible and hermeneutics, to say nothing of discernement.


Just goes to show how stupid WOF is. The people who follow it are the most ignorant who live in some day dream world who impose there standards and rules upon the bible without any study or discernment.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Yeah never seen Marcus Welby ....must be an old show, but never watch much tv as a kid.

Ariel, Marcus Welby is WAY before your time. It was on the air from 1969 to 1976.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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i watched mash with dad all the time, this wassup guy is a little off tho, and spouting some deadly doctrine. his is the kind of thinking that has done so much damage to the WoF

Forget WoF! He is a disgrace to Christianity!
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
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interesting how you side stepped this. I am not WoF, and even I have looked deeply into this verse! You know, the one that in Greek says that if the person is not healed, it is the fault of the elders, not the sick person. I wish this stuff came through in English. That would have stopped a lot of this WoF condemnation and judgment on sick people right back at the beginning, when this heresy started.

"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord." James 5:14
it is the fault on there end because of the lack of teaching on there part of healing to the laity. to establish a firm biblical belief that God Heals.

[FONT=&quot]14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

if he mentioned the person still in sin, they were in the baby stages of faith, still carnal in thinking. not yet trained in the word fully enough to have there bible formed beliefs(faith) govern there thoughts and actions. hence falling on the elders(bishop, or the pastor) for not educating them.[/FONT]
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
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I have read Kenyon's, Hagin's and Copeland's books. I did not know the Bible well, when I read them but the Holy Spirit really convicted me of the "wrongness" that was written in them. Especially Kenyon! That was like a trip back to the New Age movement I left and repudiated when I was saved.

For me, if you want to prove something, use the Bible in context. I am not going to read the words of obvious heretics. It is bad enough reading the WoF people here, and to see the mess they make of the Bible, when they twist God's Words beyond recognition. Especially some people in this thread!

Oy, if only we could discuss the OP, and the Title of this thread - You know, what the BIBLE says! But I guess the problem is there really isn't enough Scripture to back any of the WoF claims, so they are loath to discuss it for that reason. Very sad!
i will agree with Kenyon, especially the latter works, but i learned to eat the hay and spit out the sticks with him.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
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Forget WoF! He is a disgrace to Christianity!
no because what he says is not WoF, he is taking it and running with what he wants while detaching from the word. you cannot neglect the natural, we life in it to do so is foolish.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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Heb_4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

What saith the Lord to us personally.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

*** God tells us to pray for others...people weren't healed because of their righteousness but Christ and His prayers were heard.

It is not our righteousness but Christ that allows us to pray to God for others.

A person physical health does not reflect their spiritual health.
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,282
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48
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

*** God tells us to pray for others...people weren't healed because of their righteousness but Christ and His prayers were heard.

It is not our righteousness but Christ that allows us to pray to God for others.

A person physical health does not reflect their spiritual health.
nope but since all a judged righteous in Christ, and that we are the righteousness of God. our prayers are heard. and when we pray for healing,
prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Guys

Is the walk really about doctrines to follow? Isn't this life supposed to be a walk of faith, our own faith which grows with experience?

I looked again at the op and was going to try to answer by studying the language, but I feel this would just end in debating ideas about what we believe about God, rather than asking what He wants to say to us concerning every situation of life.

Now this can be given through the Word, by the rhema of it. And its a good thing to study, but this new birth is exactly what it says. We are born into the Kingdom of Heaven, with the Kingdom of God ruling in our heart. Connected through Spirit.

Would He not answer us if we just ask Him?

I went into the hospital of a friend who had lung cancer and my intention was to pray for her healing. As I was about to lay my hands on her, the Lord spoke...I'm taking her home. And I stopped.

His will may not be what we think it should be.

If we know its not His will to go yet? Then it may take a battle against forces of evil.

Sickness is evil. A result of the fall. Not the best for Gods children, but I don't see where Jesus ever reprimanded anyone for being sick.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Guys

Is the walk really about doctrines to follow? Isn't this life supposed to be a walk of faith, our own faith which grows with experience?

I looked again at the op and was going to try to answer by studying the language, but I feel this would just end in debating ideas about what we believe about God, rather than asking what He wants to say to us concerning every situation of life.

Now this can be given through the Word, by the rhema of it. And its a good thing to study, but this new birth is exactly what it says. We are born into the Kingdom of Heaven, with the Kingdom of God ruling in our heart. Connected through Spirit.

Would He not answer us if we just ask Him?

I went into the hospital of a friend who had lung cancer and my intention was to pray for her healing. As I was about to lay my hands on her, the Lord spoke...I'm taking her home. And I stopped.

His will may not be what we think it should be.

If we know its not His will to go yet? Then it may take a battle against forces of evil.

Sickness is evil. A result of the fall. Not the best for Gods children, but I don't see where Jesus ever reprimanded anyone for being sick.
Departing from sound doctrine is what has us in these situations.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

This is what we have here. Some want to make God do what they want and believe they can compel God to do things that God is not going to do.

Romans chapter 1 teaches us that men who will not accept the written revelation of God will still be required to answer to the natural revelation of God. This is why all are without excuse. There are those who do not like God as He is and go about to change Him into someone they can control.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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it is the fault on there end because of the lack of teaching on there part of healing to the laity. to establish a firm biblical belief that God Heals.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

if he mentioned the person still in sin, they were in the baby stages of faith, still carnal in thinking. not yet trained in the word fully enough to have there bible formed beliefs(faith) govern there thoughts and actions. hence falling on the elders(bishop, or the pastor) for not educating them.

Sorry, I was assuming we all understood and agreed upon this fact. Yes, we do need to confess our sins, repent and be walking with God. Although Jesus did heal the 10 lepers, and only one came back. So were the others saved? Were they walking righteously? Maybe, but they were definitely not grateful for what Jesus had done.

There is definitely a codicil here! I was trying to make my posts shorter. Hmm! I guess I won't try that again.

However, I do not see in this passage you have quoted, anywhere it talks about "baby Christians" only asking for prayer of the elders. I see nowhere it says that a mature Christian cannot call for the elders for prayer. Just because one is not an elder, does not mean they are not mature. An Elder is a designated position in a church, also known as a deacon.

"And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed." Acts 14:23

Because the church was so new, at this point in Acts, I doubt these "elders" were necessarily "old" or even mature in the faith! However, they had qualities which made them a choice from God. And those are the people that are supposed to pray for the sick. I think Lauren ably made this point earlier.

It seems to me this passage is as much about confession, as healing. Interesting how the next step after WoF is "not confessing your sin" and changing the Biblical definition of repentance to something it is not! But that is not the topic here, of course!
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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Sorry, I was assuming we all understood and agreed upon this fact. Yes, we do need to confess our sins, repent and be walking with God. Although Jesus did heal the 10 lepers, and only one came back. So were the others saved? Were they walking righteously? Maybe, but they were definitely not grateful for what Jesus had done.

There is definitely a codicil here! I was trying to make my posts shorter. Hmm! I guess I won't try that again.

However, I do not see in this passage you have quoted, anywhere it talks about "baby Christians" only asking for prayer of the elders. I see nowhere it says that a mature Christian cannot call for the elders for prayer. Just because one is not an elder, does not mean they are not mature. An Elder is a designated position in a church, also known as a deacon.

"And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed." Acts 14:23

Because the church was so new, at this point in Acts, I doubt these "elders" were necessarily "old" or even mature in the faith! However, they had qualities which made them a choice from God. And those are the people that are supposed to pray for the sick. I think Lauren ably made this point earlier.

It seems to me this passage is as much about confession, as healing. Interesting how the next step after WoF is "not confessing your sin" and changing the Biblical definition of repentance to something it is not! But that is not the topic here, of course!
luke 17:11-19 is an example of Israel and its rejection of Jesus, and evidence of His healing will for all

[FONT=&quot]15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

he was a samaritan, i don't need to go into what that means in that culture. but still we see that he has a lasting healing that we know because of his faith(belief) in who Jesus was. and it was no ones faith but his own that healed him, born out of the belief formed when he accepted Jesus as who HE was.

now spiritual maturity

1 Corinthians 3King James Version (KJV)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

and

[/FONT]

[h=1]Hebrews 6King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 And this will we do, if God permit.

so first Paul was speaking to believers after 4 years of there conversion, speaking to them that they were still living carnal. the aspects of carnality are living in the flesh and shows a mind governed by it. now i did not say that mature Christians shouldn't ask for the laying of hands, but i will say it is a basic principal of Christian faith.

and an elder and a deacon are different.

presbuteros: elder[/FONT]

Original Word: πρεσβύτερος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: presbuteros
Phonetic Spelling: (pres-boo'-ter-os)
Short Definition: elder
Definition: elder, usually used as subst.; an elder, a member of the Sanhedrin, an elder of a Christian assembly.HELPS Word-studies
4245 presbýteros – properly, a mature man having seasoned judgment (experience); an elder.
The NT specifies elders are men. (The feminine singular, presbytera, never occurs in the Bible.)
[The feminine plural, presbyteras, occurs in 1 Tim 5:2. It refers to aged women, i.e. not women with an official church office or title.]

elder is used as a wise mature member in the congregation, well versed in the faith, because of being hand picked to lead the church till Overseers or Bishops could be sent. so those chosen were most likely well versed in the Hebrew roots, knowing full well what true faith in God was.

while the word for deacon comes from diakonos, or diakoneó. which is just a word for servant. which we are all called to be. not an elder tho, that's basic Greek to.

and the WoF talks alot about confessing sin, confessing everything actually...



[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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Acts 14King James Version (KJV)

14 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
4 But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.
5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them,
6 They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:
7 And there they preached the gospel.
8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
18 And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them.
19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
24 And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia.
25 And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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i will agree with Kenyon, especially the latter works, but i learned to eat the hay and spit out the sticks with him.
Here we go again wanderer, another wof SECULAR saying you learned which btw is not Biblical. In all my years studying wof I've heard that one, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" and a variation of yours, "eat the meat and spit out the bones."

Years ago I read an article on these idioms that was very enlighting and I just now found it. You can start out wanderer by reading Acts 17:11. We are to search the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. You see wanderer it was God who said that His Word is perfect and from it we would get sound doctrine. (2 Timothy 3:14).

So, let's look at "I eat the meant and spit out the bones." It is used countless times to defend using the teachings of favorite teachers/preachers who upon evaluation, are far from the Word of God. What they do like kenyon, hagin, copeland and many others is present "truth teasers" in amongst the bones, so the undiscerning (especially like you) will ead and find that "meat" to validate their teachings. Supporter like you lay claim to the idea that "no one is perfect" and if they can glean one thing from an otherwise unsound teaching or writing, they'll keep that meat and spit out the offending bones. They don't believe it to be unsound to be taught both doctrinal truth and error and uphold the person who teaches in this manner. And as a side note, I do recall you saying in one of your post, "nobody's perfect." In other words wanderer, you have fallen hook, line and sinker to false teaching by false and heretical teachers. See, I just gave you another "idiom."

Hopefully you get the point becasue I don't see the need to explain to you about the idiom "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Besides, what is a baby doing in filthy water in the first place? And one last thing? If you have a mind to bring up 2 Timothy 1:13 and apply it to one of these secular idioms I have a great answser for that as well and how it does not apply. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,118
538
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and i remember answering you but i guess you can't read... i'll make my font bigger.


i did not say the devil was holding him back, but lying to him. he is holding himself back by a lack of faith(or unbelief in healing)



​why can't i heal him... i have no authority over him, he is not my servant like the centurion in this case. I cannot apply my faith to him, or even ask for him, but only pray with him on his accord, that is the right, that is the legal way you could say it is. and Christ healed others by the GIFT of healing.

and what i am going to tell you is you have no comprehension of the words FAITH and BELIEF, you lack understanding and need to educate yourself.




Craig Hagin, the grandson, hes one of the teachers. i do not know about the sister, i don't know what she believed. but Craig, his dad, and granddad all talked about what you mention with the brain tumor, they use it to teach in WOF to still stand on modern medicine and prayer. he was taken to the hospital (city of faith) and they prayed for a perfect operation, and recovery. guess what, he had a perfect operation and recover. no trace of the tumor even tho they didn't get it all, and the burr holes they basically drilled in his skull completely healed.





​so again, i don't operate in the gift of healing, i can't do that. but i will pray all day long with people on healing, where they are at. its not the devil, its not me, its not even God keeping healing from many, its there own faith(belief in the word of God) that hinders.
Are you serious wanderer? What do you mean when you say, "​why can't i heal him... i have no authority over him, he is not my servant like the centurion in this case." Remeber, I said to you in another post "why don't you clear out people in the hospital in your area?" What does not being their servant have to do with anything? Your suppose to be a servant just like Jesus Christ took on the form of a servant at Philippians 2:5-9. He's our example and He also said we would do greater works than Him. So again, what is stopping you from healing people with your great faith?

Finally, I don't need you to lecture me on belief and faith as you said here: "and what i am going to tell you is you have no comprehension of the words FAITH and BELIEF, you lack understanding and need to educate yourself." I've forgotten more about wof than you will ever know. Your 28 years old and the bunion on my big toe is older than you. And lastly, I noticed another wof buzz word you used in this post of yours? It's the word, "legal." This is a favorite word kenneth copeland loves to use in his heretical sermons when it comes to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I'll try and find it for you. You better run and not walk to the nearest exit from wof wanderer. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto