Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

[peacefulbeliever]

As far as life on this earth and learning goes. this is correct.

Yes, I know. But as I showed earlier. even the women was amazed. It scared the crap out of her seeing something.

She was probably a fake. Never really saw anything (like todays) and when she saw something real, she freaked.

And as I said, The author who was writing the testimony of what occured. said it was Samuel.

just showing why I disagree, not trying to argue..lol

Nice to see you too. How you been??

I don't know if you have ever seen on TV that show about the woman that talks with the dead. (I can't think of the name of the show now) She goes and gives readings and when you watch it. . .you begin to think. . .wow she is really blessing people. She is dead on with the stuff she "knows" and that she "hears" from the familiar spirits of the dead relatives of these people. . .only ONLY, knowing the word keeps a Christian from believing this stuff.

I have been great and u? I have been going to chat more. . .not many topics here that have interested me lately. Every once in a while something will catch my eye!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't know if you have ever seen on TV that show about the woman that talks with the dead. (I can't think of the name of the show now) She goes and gives readings and when you watch it. . .you begin to think. . .wow she is really blessing people. She is dead on with the stuff she "knows" and that she "hears" from the familiar spirits of the dead relatives of these people. . .only ONLY, knowing the word keeps a Christian from believing this stuff.

No I do not watch them, But I listened to a special on these people and how they do it, They are good at reading people. so they appear to be saying things which appear to be prophesy, but in reality they are not.

This is what I think happened then. Although I do beloieve demons can help here also. However, in this case, i believe God used samuel.

I have been great and u? I have been going to chat more. . .not many topics here that have interested me lately. Every once in a while something will catch my eye!

Glad your well, I left for a bit, got sick of the fighting..lol Plus got real busy..

 

[Michael50]

Please note, that it does not say what most people believe. It does not say "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and then go to Heaven.... " This verse plainly tells us were we will MEET the Lord, not where we will reside with the Lord, We indeed will meet the Lord in the clouds, which is in our atmosphere. When Jesus returns He will not step foot on the Earth at the time of His Coming, We will leave the Earth to meet Him in the Atmosphere, it the sky, in the clouds. That verse is no way descibes where we will reside, where we will live with Jesus Christ.

I Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caughtup together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice it says we will be caught up with them in the clouds, NOT in Heaven. At that time we Meet the Lord, and we Meet in the sky. And from then on we shall forever be with the Lord, not forever in the clouds, forever with Him, where ever He may be dwelling, either in the New City Jerusalem, or in Heaven, we will be able to be with Him forever.

Also another thing is the New City Jerusalem will be in the Air. There are prophesies which describe people living under that city, and that water which causes rivers come out from the New City as well. However it will not be floating, it will rest on four mountains on each of the corners of the City.

^i^

I read your post and the best way to get to the heart of the issue is tell you what I believe.

I believe when Jesus appears in the clouds, the saved, both dead and alive will meet Jesus in the air. Then, I believe Jesus will take us to heaven, where the Holy city is now at.

I believe we will spend 1000 years in heaven where the Holy city is at. I believe one of the activities the saved will be doing in heaven is judging both, wicked humans, and wicked angels.

After the 1000 years,, I believe we will return with the Holy City Jerusalem, along with God the Father, Jesus, and all the angels, and the Holy City shall land on the earth (where the mount of olives is now).

So,, I got Jesus coming to the earth 3 times:

1, First Coming, to Bethlehem in a manger
2, Second Coming,,in the clouds at the beginning of the 1000 years to take His people to heaven.
3. Third Coming, with the Holy City and all the Righteous at the close of the 1000 years.

That's what I beleive. If you have any questions,, I will give you scriptures to support my belief.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Shiloah]

I was raised in a family that only knew the belief that immortal souls go to heaven when the body dies. I clearly remember asking why when Christ returns for the resurrection of the dead, what for? since our souls had already gone to heaven? I was told He comes back to reunite our dead bodies with our souls. I asked then, why in the world would He come and retrieve our dead bones, or even our ashes, or dust, etc. when He could just make new bodies for us-- or-- what did we even need with bodies if our souls were in heaven apparently doing just fine without bodies? People would say they didn't know. These were just things we didn't understand yet. This concept never did work for me, even as a little kid.

 

[danschance]

I was raised in a family that only knew the belief that immortal souls go to heaven when the body dies. I clearly remember asking why when Christ returns for the resurrection of the dead, what for? since our souls had already gone to heaven? I was told He comes back to reunite our dead bodies with our souls. I asked then, why in the world would He come and retrieve our dead bones, or even our ashes, or dust, etc. when He could just make new bodies for us-- or-- what did we even need with bodies if our souls were in heaven apparently doing just fine without bodies? People would say they didn't know. These were just things we didn't understand yet. This concept never did work for me, even as a little kid.

And no one ever explained it to you? The resurrection is where the soul is reunited with a body.

 

[danschance]

I was raised in a family that only knew the belief that immortal souls go to heaven when the body dies. I clearly remember asking why when Christ returns for the resurrection of the dead, what for? since our souls had already gone to heaven? I was told He comes back to reunite our dead bodies with our souls. I asked then, why in the world would He come and retrieve our dead bones, or even our ashes, or dust, etc. when He could just make new bodies for us-- or-- what did we even need with bodies if our souls were in heaven apparently doing just fine without bodies? People would say they didn't know. These were just things we didn't understand yet. This concept never did work for me, even as a little kid.

Let me ask you a question....

Suppose your dad gave you a car as a present. A nice beautiful car. One that had special meaning to you. Then one day it was stolen from you and gone forever. At some point you decided that you would make another car exactly like the first. Same color paint, same upholstery, same everything. You even made the upholstery have the same stain where your boyfriend spilled coffee as he kissed you for the first time. Same door squeak. Same gas pedal... you name it and you made sure it looked and even smelled identical to the first.

There is only one problem. It is not the actual car your dad gave you. Same with soul sleep. If we die, god does not resurrect you. He simply makes a copy of you. So you wonder thru paradise thinking you are the original, but you are just a forgery.

The spirit is you, not your body. Even now your body is getting older and someday soon will wear out. So all your good work and all good deeds simply will go to a forgery of you if there is no spirit. Think about it.

 

[Elin]

Problem is that the scripture does not say that. It plainly states that
only God has immortality and it is a gift that He will give to His children...

1Ti 6:16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Who alone possesses immortality?

Let's go go back to 1Ti 1:17:

God is
eternal (King of the ages),
immortal,
invisible,
the only God.

The Greek word translated "immortal" here is aphthartos, which means "incorruptible."

God is physically "incorruptible" because he has no body which, therefore, makes him immortal.
God is also a morally "incorruptible" spirit, because he is God.
God is both a morally and physically incorruptible (aphthartos) spirit.

Now to 1Ti 6:16 - "God. . .who alone is immortal."

The text is stating that God alone is the incorruptible (1Ti 1:17) immortal being.

How do we know that?
Because God is the author of Scripture (2Ti 3:16,) and God does not contradict himself.

God is not the only immortal being, because angels are immortal, and demons are immortal.

So the text means something else.

However, the same kind of phraseology is seen in the same epistle at 1:17, presented above.
So in the light of 1Ti 1:17, where incorruptible has been translated immortal, we see what is meant in 6:16.
God is the only morally incorruptible/immortal being.

Thus 1Ti 6:16 does not disagree with other Scripture which reveals angels and demons are immortal.
But even though the angels are immortal, they could be, and were, corrupted in the heavenly rebellion.

The NT reveals that all spirits are immortal. . .God, angels, demons and human spirits
(Php 1:23; Heb 12:18, 22-24; Mt 22:31-32; Lk 16:22-26).

But God is the only incorruptible/immortal spirit.

 

[john832]

And no one ever explained it to you? The resurrection is where the soul is reunited with a body.

And yet we read...

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Apparently Paul thought differently.

 

[Michael50]

Let's go go back to 1Ti 1:17:

God is
eternal (King of the ages),
immortal,
invisible,
the only God.

The Greek word translated "immortal" here is aphthartos, which means "incorruptible."

God is physically "incorruptible" because he has no body which, therefore, makes him immortal.
God is also a morally "incorruptible" spirit, because he is God.
God is both a morally and physically incorruptible (aphthartos) spirit.

Now to 1Ti 6:16 - "God. . .who alone is immortal."

The text is stating that God alone is the incorruptible (1Ti 1:17) immortal being.

How do we know that?
Because God is the author of Scripture (2Ti 3:16,) and God does not contradict himself.

God is not the only immortal being, because angels are immortal, and demons are immortal.

So the text means something else.

The same kind of phraseology is seen in the same epistle at 1:17, presented above.
So in the light of 1Ti 1:17, where incorruptible has been translated immortal, we see what is meant in 6:16.
God is the only morally incorruptible/immortal being.

Thus 1Ti 6:16 does not disagree with other Scripture which reveals angels and demons are immortal.
But even though the angels are immortal, they could be, and were, corrupted in the heavenly rebellion.

The NT reveals that all spirits are immortal. . .God, angels, demons and human spirits
(Php 1:23; Heb 12:18, 22-24; Mt 22:31-32; Lk 16:22-26).

But God is the only incorruptible/immortal spirit.

These scriptures speak of DEATH. ETERNAL DEATH!

SATANS DEATH:

"And I turned you to ashes upon the earth.....You have become a horror and shall be no more, forever. (Ezekiel 28:18,19)

WICKED HUMANS DEATH:

"..all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up...You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet....." (Malachi 4:1,3)

Summary: Satan (Fallen angels) become ashes. Wicked humans become ashes. All dead, all gone,,,Like God says, "..shall be no more, forever."

And in case your wondering what will happen to the smoke of them that are burning up:

"But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord,,,shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let's go go back to 1Ti 1:17:

But God is the only incorruptible/immortal spirit.

not to reign on your party, but what about the engels who di dnot fall. would they not be morally incorruptable also?? as we will be when we get to heaven?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

These scriptures speak of DEATH. ETERNAL DEATH!

SATANS DEATH:

"And I turned you to ashes upon the earth.....You have become a horror and shall be no more, forever. (Ezekiel 28:18,19)

WICKED HUMANS DEATH:

"..all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up...You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet....." (Malachi 4:1,3)

Summary: Satan (Fallen angels) become ashes. Wicked humans become ashes. All dead, all gone,,,Like God says, "..shall be no more, forever."

And in case your wondering what will happen to the smoke of them that are burning up:

"But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord,,,shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away."

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[SUP][b][/SUP] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

since when does "forever" not mean forever?

of course you do not believe eternal means eternal either so I can see why you would be fooled into thinking this way!

 

[Elin]

I was raised in a family that only knew the belief that immortal souls go to heaven when the body dies. I clearly remember asking why when Christ returns for the resurrection of the dead, what for? since our souls had already gone to heaven? I was told He comes back to reunite our dead bodies with our souls. I asked then, why in the world would He come and retrieve our dead bones, or even our ashes, or dust, etc. when He could just make new bodies for us-- or-- what did we even need with bodies if our souls were in heaven apparently doing just fine without bodies? People would say they didn't know. These were just things we didn't understand yet. This concept never did work for me, even as a little kid.

The NT shows that our spirits are incomplete without their bodies, that they long to be clothed in them again.

The NT also reveals that our resurrection bodies will be similar but different from our corruptible, weak and sinful bodies, for they will be incorruptible (immortal), powerful and glorious like the resurrection body of Jesus.

So, according to the word of God, our immortal spirits will be clothed with immortal bodies at the resurrection, where they will live for eternity.

 

[Elin]

Let me ask you a question....

Suppose your dad gave you a car as a present. A nice beautiful car. One that had special meaning to you. Then one day it was stolen from you and gone forever. At some point you decided that you would make another car exactly like the first. Same color paint, same upholstery, same everything. You even made the upholstery have the same stain where your boyfriend spilled coffee as he kissed you for the first time. Same door squeak. Same gas pedal... you name it and you made sure it looked and even smelled identical to the first.

There is only one problem. It is not the actual car your dad gave you. Same with soul sleep. If we die, god does not resurrect you. He simply makes a copy of you. So you wonder thru paradise thinking you are the original, but you are just a forgery.

That is not the purport of 1Co 15:35-43.

 

[Elin]

These scriptures speak of DEATH. ETERNAL DEATH!

SATANS DEATH:

"And I turned you to ashes upon the earth.....You have become a horror and shall be no more, forever. (Ezekiel 28:18,19)

WICKED HUMANS DEATH:

"..all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up...You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet....." (Malachi 4:1,3)

Summary: Satan (Fallen angels) become ashes. Wicked humans become ashes. All dead, all gone,,,Like God says, "..shall be no more, forever."

And in case your wondering what will happen to the smoke of them that are burning up:

"But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord,,,shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away."

You did not address the Scriptures presented.

You are setting the Scriptures against themselves, which means you misunderstand them.

The revelation of Jesus (Heb 1:1-2), which is the NT given through the apostles, shows that all spirits are immortal.

The OT is to be understood in the light of the NT, which gives the true meaning of the Scriptures which you quote.

Scripture does not contradict itself when the OT is understood in the light of Jesus' revelation which is the NT.

 

[Michael50]

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[SUP][b][/SUP] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

since when does "forever" not mean forever?

of course you do not believe eternal means eternal either so I can see why you would be fooled into thinking this way!

They are destroyed.. The lake of fire occurs when Satan marshals the wicked to surround the Holy City. God cause fire to fall on them.. That fire is called the "lake of fire".. That is where satan and his angels,, and all the wicked humans will be burned up, become ashes.. like God said in Ezekiel and in Malachi!

Doesn't the Bible teach that "former things have passed away",,isn't death and suffering and sadness and pain all going to pass away and be no more? Not if God has a torture chamber with some of our loved ones (perhaps our children) burning and writhing in pain forever and forever.

If you think Satan and the demons and all the wicked humans are going to live forever in flames screaming and writhing in pain,, then you can't say the "former things" have passed away.

Just think,, Nearly all of the saved will have loved ones that will not be saved. And I suppose you get to see and hear them screaming out in agony everyday for eternity... Then look over to Jesus,, and tell him how happy you are watching and hearing your child continually scream, day and night, forever and ever!!!!

Your doctrine is diseased. You make our Saviour to be an exacting, mean torturing tyrant! You have misrepresented God. You have erred, exceedingly!

 

[Elin]

not to reign on your party, but what about the engels who di dnot fall. would they not be morally incorruptable also?? as we will be when we get to heaven?

Yes, they are morally incorruptible now.

But they were capable of moral corruption prior to the rebellion in heaven.

And now, both they and the demons are fixed in their state.

 

[Shiloah]

I do not know why people keep ignoring questions, then get mad when we do not see it their way. Seems to be a common occurrence.

Honestly, the reason people are ignoring questions, or so you read it that way, is because those questions have been answered in every way possible already. And if the answer isn't understood by now, then there's no other way to explain it.

 

[Michael50]

You did not address the Scriptures presented.

You are setting the Scriptures against themselves, which means you misunderstand them.

The revelation of Jesus (Heb 1:1-2), which is the NT given through the apostles, shows that all spirits are immortal.

The OT is to be understood in the light of the NT, which gives the true meaning of the Scriptures which you quote.

Scripture does not contradict itself when the OT is understood in the light of Jesus' revelation which is the NT.

You must be joking,,,, You are now going to sit here and tell the whole forum that the old testement is wrong,, all of its facts are wrong..ect....lololololol

You continually present evidence that strongly suggests you disbelieve God and is Bible.. Unbelief is a terrible sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are destroyed.. The lake of fire occurs when Satan marshals the wicked to surround the Holy City. God cause fire to fall on them.. That fire is called the "lake of fire".. That is where satan and his angels,, and all the wicked humans will be burned up, become ashes.. like God said in Ezekiel and in Malachi!

where do you come up with this stuff.

forever and ever.. this means forever and ever.

The beast and false prophet was already there for 1000 years by this time, and the unbeliever will go there after final judgment.

Doesn't the Bible teach that "former things have passed away",,

That is refering to the lawi

isn't death and suffering and sadness and pain all going to pass away and be no more?

for those who are in christ. yes.. but for those who are not in christ, they are still under the old thing..

Not if God has a torture chamber with some of our loved ones (perhaps our children) burning and writhing in pain forever and forever.

If you think Satan and the demons and all the wicked humans are going to live forever in flames screaming and writhing in pain,, then you can't say the "former things" have passed away.

Just think,, Nearly all of the saved will have loved ones that will not be saved. And I suppose you get to see and hear them screaming out in agony everyday for eternity... Then look over to Jesus,, and tell him how happy you are watching and hearing your child continually scream, day and night, forever and ever!!!!

Your doctrine is diseased. You make our Saviour to be an exacting, mean torturing tyrant! You have misrepresented God. You have erred, exceedingly!

lol.. I am so sorry you feel like a just God is wrong.. go argue with him

 

[Shiloah]

The NT shows that our spirits are incomplete without their bodies, that they long to be clothed in them again.

The NT also reveals that our resurrection bodies will be similar but different from our corruptible, weak and sinful bodies, for they will be incorruptible (immortal), powerful and glorious like the resurrection body of Jesus.

So, according to the word of God, our immortal spirits will be clothed with immortal bodies at the resurrection, where they will live for eternity.

This answer shows that we're never going to understand one another. Apparently, you've not understood anything said by the other side of the argument so far. It's amazing you actually expect that side to perpetually (maybe there's the operative word for a number of reasons) reexplain their position by posting scriptures and then you people accuse your opponent of not answering questions after they've already proved by way of those scriptures their position so many times it's perfectly ridiculous. It is true that both of us cannot be right about this.

Honestly, I believed as you did once, as I already said, and I heard the same answers you're giving me and never was satisfied because they contradict scriptures, plus they just plain don't make sense. So when I finally found some people that could explain why this position did not make sense according to all the scriptures already presented on this thread, I literally rejoiced. Because scriptures all fit together then and all made perfect sense, not to mention the fact that they finally made perfectly logical sense.

Your position not only does not match up with all scripture, it doesn't make a lick of sense. You can have it, because you're obviously more than willing to ignore everything said here so you can hang onto it.