Mystery, Babylon the Great - earthly Jerusalem?

[RachelBibleStudent]

i suppose Jeremiah doesn't quite just say great city.
he words it a little differently
so he's out i guess.

Lamentations 1:1
How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave. - NIV

Jerusalem, once so full of people, is now deserted. She who was once great among the nations now sits alone like a widow. Once the queen of all the earth, she is now a slave. - NLT

How lonely sits the city that was full of people! How like a widow has she become, she who was great among the nations! She who was a princess among the provinces has become a slave. - ESV

~

and Ezra doesn't match Revelation either:

Ezra 4:20
There have been mighty kings also over Jerusalem, which have ruled over all countries beyond the river; and toll, tribute, and custom, was paid unto them.

or Ezekiel

Ezekiel 5:5
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.

Ezekiel 16:14
13"Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your dress was of fine linen, silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey and oil; so you were exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. 14"Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you," declares the Lord GOD. 15"But you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries on every passer-by who might be willing.

a-a-a-a-a-anyways.
if we can't use israel's prophets; or God's names of derision for the unfaithful city.....

.....we can spiritualize it all and make it the mystical world.
or Rome or....the Jehovah's Witnesses?
what's left after we tear out half the bible?

a city being called great and being 'the great city' itself are two different things...'the great city' is a very specific term that can't be equivocated with just any city that is considered great...new york city is great by many standards...but only certain futurists will claim that it is 'the great city' of the bible...

and no ezra -doesn't- match up...neither does ezekiel...direct quotations are word for word -by definition-

if john wanted us to refer back to ezra and ezekiel he would have quoted them word for word...not excised bits and pieces and jumbled up the rest before adding a few new extras...

this equivocation hermeneutic of yours is just a slightly more developed form of eisegesis...

 

[NiceneCreed]

a city being called great and being 'the great city' itself are two different things...'the great city' is a very specific term that can't be equivocated with just any city that is considered great...new york city is great by many standards...but only certain futurists will claim that it is 'the great city' of the bible...

and no ezra -doesn't- match up...neither does ezekiel...direct quotations are word for word -by definition-

if john wanted us to refer back to ezra and ezekiel he would have quoted them word for word...not excised bits and pieces and jumbled up the rest before adding a few new extras...

this equivocation hermeneutic of yours is just a slightly more developed form of eisegesis...

Spot on!

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

it has been suggested that there is "nothing said about A CITY BEING ADULTEROUS"
amazing.



Isaiah 1:21
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The faithful city-- what an adulteress she has become! She was once full of justice. Righteousness once dwelt in her-- but now, murderers!

New International Version
See how the faithful city has become a prostitute! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her-- but now murderers!

New Living Translation
See how Jerusalem, once so faithful, has become a prostitute. Once the home of justice and righteousness, she is now filled with murderers.

English Standard Version
How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

New American Standard Bible
How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers.

King James Bible
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

already fulfilled in 586 BC...one fulfillment is enough for me...stop using dispensationalist style schemes to make old testament prophecy into something it isn't...

in any case...harlotry is a picture of pagan idolatry as can be seen from many many other passages...pagan idolatry is not mentioned among the sins of first century jerusalem...and most of the other cities in the world were -far more guilty- of pagan idolatry than first century jerusalem was...so again jerusalem does not fit the description and many other cities fit the description much better...

 

[danschance]

If I am ever in an argument with Rachelbiblestudent, I am going to immediately agree with her and wave a white flag. That is preferable than to have my arguments shredded publicly along with my ego.

 

[NiceneCreed]

If I am ever in an argument with Rachelbiblestudent, I am going to immediately agree with her and wave a white flag. That is preferable than to have my arguments shredded publicly along with my ego.

It is good to see you have, at the very least, a sense of humor about it.

 

[SarahM777]

point by point refutation of the proof texting...posted earlier today by me in another thread...to be spread out over several posts...


regarding revelation 17:5-6...'drunken with the blood of saints and with the blood of the martyrs of jesus'...by the time revelation was written the romans had martyred far more christians than jerusalem...paul and peter among them... any reader would have thought about rome when they read about the blood of the martyrs...not jerusalem... this isn't to say that the harlot is rome...only to show that the biblical description of the harlot is not specific to jerusalem...since jerusalem isn't even the best fit...

regarding isaiah 1:21...the prophet called jerusalem a harlot around 800 BC...this does not prove that every reference to harlotry in scripture refers to jerusalem... harlotry in scripture stands for pagan idolatry as can be seen from numerous other passages...pagan idolatry was not even one of jerusalem's primary sins in AD 70...and many other cities were far more guilty of pagan idolatry...in fact most of the world was more idolatrous than jerusalem at that point...

regarding matthew 12:39...jesus says that an evil and adulterous -generation- asks for a sign...nothing is said about a -city- being adulterous... the generation being adulterous would again make it clear that this description is not specific to jerusalem...

UMM But you can't leave this out either when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees

Luke 11

47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

If I remember correctly John was there,so he knew Jesus said that.

 

[watcher2013]

If you have time please view this.
Mystery, Babylon the Great part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPur1eLuE40
Mystery, Babylon the great part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg5o8t408IM
Mystery, Babylon the great part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRDwB52gMbw
Knows the seven kings…
Who has the blood of the saints…past, present and future..

 

[john832]

already fulfilled in 586 BC...one fulfillment is enough for me...stop using dispensationalist style schemes to make old testament prophecy into something it isn't...

in any case...harlotry is a picture of pagan idolatry as can be seen from many many other passages...pagan idolatry is not mentioned among the sins of first century jerusalem...and most of the other cities in the world were -far more guilty- of pagan idolatry than first century jerusalem was...so again jerusalem does not fit the description and many other cities fit the description much better...

Some of us are not Preterists.

 

[SarahM777]

Rachel,

So going on,Jesus very clearly in that passage tells them that that generation would be held responsible for all the shed of all the prophets from Abel on. So wouldn't that mean that if in Revelation John is referring to Rome,New York,Paris,London or some other city,that Jesus shifted the responsibility of the shed blood of the prophets to a gentile nation after telling the Pharisees that it was that generation (IE tied to Jerusalem) that would be held responsible? So the question would be why did He do that and not make it more clear if it was now a gentile city that He was talking about?

 

[SarahM777]

And going on how do you reconciled these verses also? NT by the way

Matthew 23

36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Luke 11

47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Luke 13

33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!
34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[a]”

1 Thessalonians 2

13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[b]


Can you show me where God places the death of the prophets and Jesus on any gentile nation or city or is it squarely on someone else? And if no where else it's never mentioned that it was because of the gentiles how can one say that the city is something else other than Jerusalem?

 

[SarahM777]

Boiled down it appears when one says it's not Jerusalem in Revelation,it comes across as if Jesus is contradicting Himself when He already made it very clear that it was Jerusalem that was responsible for the blood of all the prophets.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

The main reason that John was given the word Babylon to use here, was because it was the last place and time Israel of Old heard from their Prophets. Though many of the Jews left Babylon and after some years re-established the City of Jerusalem; they never really came out of their exile in Babylon but brought it with them! Jesus was their true Exodus (or sacrifice for their sins on the cross), from their exile in Babylon and Egypt, for they were continually unfaithful until Jesus' day; except when God would raise up a type of Christ among-est them. Thus Babylon the Great Harlot was used to them explicitly, because they were God's wife; they represented the Great Holy City of God, and it represented them, not only to God but to the then known world. Thus Jerusalem is likened to Babylon and Egypt, where the Lord was crucified.

 

[SarahM777]

Taking it one step further can anyone find any other place in the NT that Jesus or the Apostles ever gave any hint that it was someone else other then Jerusalem? Did Jesus ever say that it was Rome,New York,Paris etc or was it every other time Jerusalem? How about Paul? Peter? James? So the question if they never say that it was someone else then how does one come to the conclusion that it's NOT JERUSALEM?

 

[jb]

revelation 11:8...as i already showed...hebrews 13:12 indicates that jesus was crucified -outside- the city...not inside jerusalem...

To try and make Heb 13v12 negate the fact that Rev 11v8 states that 'the city, the great one' is the place 'where also our Lord was crucified' is NOT Jerusalem is laughable to say the least.

If you ask anybody in the world where the Lord Jesus was crucified six and a half billion people, bar you, would say Jerusalem!

If you claim to be a bible student, at least act like one and stop twisting the Scriptures to fit your erroneous view!

I thought better of you!

 

[zone]

Zone,

Just my thought on "Babylon the Great," but I am almost certain end times (eschatological topics) prophecies contained within the Bible are to be read as being more literary than literal. Might I ask, do you think of the 'Great Multitude' of the 144,000 as being literal descendants, ethnic Israel, or spiritual Israel? I suppose anything found in the Book of Revelation (or Daniel) is open to interpretation. Lord knows I may be wrong, but that is why we are here on the CC -- to discover new things and listen to the views of others.

NiceneCreed,
i don't know if you are familiar with amillennial eschatology.
it's basically that everything we read about (excluding the new heavens and earth/eternity) takes place between creation and the Second Advent - in other words, no future 1,000 years, or purgatory or anything like that.

the things concerning Rev 20 specifically refer to events from the First Advent to the Second - that's the (symbolic) thousand years.

re: the visions (plural) of the 144,000, and the 'Great Multitude':

Christ gathered the remnant of Israel at His First Advent. they were the firstfruits, represented by the vision of the 144,000.

the Gentiles (no man could number) at the First Advent began to be included with His people (without hinderance of the gospel - Rev 20) - the separate vision of the 'Great Multitude' would be all redeemed people from among jews and gentiles.

the vision of the 144,000 (which i believe is a symbolic number; signifies the entire church represented by the firstfruits - the remnant Israelites gathered to Christ out of the multitude of the nation of Israel. the remnant.

and yes, of course i believe jews are still saved, and i believe they are daily.
i do not think these would be included in the first-fruits, they would be counted among the great multitude, since the distinction was torn down by Christ at the Cross and Ascension.

the vision of the 144,000 (symbolic number) of holy firstfruits (representative in the vision though real in heaven and in history) standing with the Victorious Lamb (an heavenly vision) overlays should be read with another vision (earthly) where people on earth are in still in conflict with "the beast" (the church) or confederacy with (unbelievers) "the beast".

in other words, that vision of Christ the Victor, seen with His overcoming 144,000 firstfruits (imo) is a vision of comfort and strength to those still living on earth.

that probably is as clear as mud, but this is my reading.
a clear understanding of amillennialism is the only way to grasp what i have struggled to say in a few words

note: please consider these beliefs, as i now hold them, to be both in line with my denomination's amillennial eschatology - and within my christian liberty to study as an individual
z

 

[zone]

Boiled down it appears when one says it's not Jerusalem in Revelation,it comes across as if Jesus is contradicting Himself when He already made it very clear that it was Jerusalem that was responsible for the blood of all the prophets.

this does appear to be a contradiction.
and sometimes a great distraction.
perhaps even responsible for deception.
it's very difficult to even skim the Gospels and call into question either point.
particularly if one had a red letter letter Bible.

 

[1still_waters]

Sometimes splitting hairs that can't be split, makes things more difficult than needed.

Two major things I'm starting to look for in discussions on Bible are...

1. Are they splitting hairs that can't be split?
2. Are they blurring lines that can't be blurred?

People have a bad habit of drawing distinctions between things that aren't distinct.
People have a bad habit of blurring the distinctions between things that are distinct.

 

[zone]

i suppose Jeremiah doesn't quite just say great city.
he words it a little differently
so he's out i guess.

Lamentations 1:1
How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave. - NIV

Jerusalem, once so full of people, is now deserted. She who was once great among the nations now sits alone like a widow. Once the queen of all the earth, she is now a slave. - NLT

How lonely sits the city that was full of people! How like a widow has she become, she who was great among the nations! She who was a princess among the provinces has become a slave. - ESV

~

and Ezra doesn't match Revelation either:

Ezra 4:20
There have been mighty kings also over Jerusalem, which have ruled over all countries beyond the river; and toll, tribute, and custom, was paid unto them.

or Ezekiel

Ezekiel 5:5
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.

Ezekiel 16:14
13"Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your dress was of fine linen, silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey and oil; so you were exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. 14"Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you," declares the Lord GOD. 15"But you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries on every passer-by who might be willing.

a-a-a-a-a-anyways.
if we can't use israel's prophets; or God's names of derision for the unfaithful city.....

.....we can spiritualize it all and make it the mystical world.
or Rome or....the Jehovah's Witnesses?
what's left after we tear out half the bible?

no, no match - CONCERNING WHICH CITY GOD KEEPS TALKING ABOUT

let's see...which CITY was did HE SAY He set "in the center of the nations, with countries all around her."
and which CITY did HE SAY would eventually be laid waste.

OR

Ezekiel 5:5
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.

Revelation 17:1
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters

Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

hmmm.....

 

[zone]

no, no match - CONCERNING WHICH CITY GOD KEEPS TALKING ABOUT

let's see...which CITY was did HE SAY He set "in the center of the nations, with countries all around her."
and which CITY did HE SAY would eventually be laid waste.

OR

Ezekiel 5:5
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.

Revelation 17:1
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters

Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

hmmm.....

i guess to be fair, i should have included this CITY:

Ezekiel 5:5
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.

Revelation 17:1
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters

Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

now if i could find a side-by-side comparison chart from Scripture, of all the times The LORD called the Vatican (which didn't exist at the time), or where He calls Rome the harlot or great city, i'll certainly consider it.


oops edit - add disclaimer; The RC IS ANTICHRIST.
k? definitely antichrist according to my church.
so far i haven't found a The Antichrist though.

 

[zone]

Zone,

Just my thought on "Babylon the Great," but I am almost certain end times (eschatological topics) prophecies contained within the Bible are to be read as being more literary than literal. Might I ask, do you think of the 'Great Multitude' of the 144,000 as being literal descendants, ethnic Israel, or spiritual Israel? I suppose anything found in the Book of Revelation (or Daniel) is open to interpretation. Lord knows I may be wrong, but that is why we are here on the CC -- to discover new things and listen to the views of others.

concerning Daniel.
i don't know how good you are at skimming through 90-some posts.
and be warned the thread was a real-time study thingee. there's lots of silliness from me, and quick notes to self from readily googled sources - for further study....(i mention this cuz kinda get alota flak fer using wiki etc...i use it for the footnotes).

anyways, since then having gone through Daniel several more times, i see very little of it open to (our own) interpretation. it's surprisingly precise; very time specific; marks the climax of The Lord's Revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ (not withstanding the Second Advent) to and in Israel, as Promised....right through to Jerusalem's destruction.

it's just loaded with amazingly detailed prophecies of events we can now pin down to the letter!

having gone through it matching the events to the highly dramatic and increasingly intensifying events for Israel in her last days as a nation (Jesus having taken upon Himself her burden as she failed, He being The Israel, The single representative of and for her, and us all).....the Book of Daniel's mind-blowing predictions of events that came to pass in such minute and exact detail really increased my faith! if there was ever a book that could prove to unbelievers (especially jews) that God did not fail and He is kind (as well as severe) it's that one!

it's AMAZING!

apologies in advance for the clutziness of this thread....maybe i'll do a new new one soon - more organized.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/63663-herods.html < click

k....ttyl.