But I think you are missing fundamental principles to your argument.
Obviously I don't think so, but I'll listen, I won't know until I consider them, right?
James said that faith without works is dead. Show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith through my works. Maturation does come through work but our works is a reflect of our maturation. But how can we grow in faith?
You grow in faith, by doing the works. Look the goal according to 1 john 4:16-18 is to learn to love like God does. If you don't have the love right, he's not in you and you aren't in Him. Jesus showed what is right love in Matt 5:43-48. Love like HE DOES a PROVIDENTIAL LOVE, not a standoffish love.
You can't learn to love right, without doing the works. When you first try to do them, you'll screw up. He helps coach you to the right way. As you screw up, you run the race, you learn, and He gets you there. Nothing in james disagrees with Ephesians 4. If it did, then you prove the Bible is unreliable. It all fits in just fine...
Like the pitcher analogy I've used.
Saved= invited to God's baseball team.
He says you gotta move from righty, to lefty, both pitching and batting.
You wont' get it down, until you go and throw the ball and swing the bat.
I>E> you won't learn to love, until you get out and love.
That word Agapao requires the demonstration, as Paul exemplifies in Gal 5:6
1 Col. 14:20 - be mature through understanding
Eph four agrees, you get understanding through works. And through the works you get maturity.
I have to ask, have you even read and broke down the eph 4 passage yet? Or are you just assuming you are right and I'm wrong. Cause some of these were pretty obvious.
James 1 - testing of faith produces patiences, and letting patience have its perfect make, makes us perfect and complete. Also sin is birth through temptation when we are draw by our own desires and are entice.
1 Peter 2:2 - desiring the pure milk of the word causes us to grow
Not sure what you mean by the James 1 verse. James is in total agreement with me.
The peter verse.... I'm going to ask you, why do you refuse the meat of Eph 4 and keep trying to stuff it in a milk bottle.
For the record I never denigrate to people on the milk meat issue, as it is possible I'm the one that's wrong, but you dropped that hammer first, I merely return it to you to demonstrate how unhelpful it is.
Also, where is the Holy Spirit in the analogy? Thankfully for us, we have that advantage.
ah ohh, which analogy was it??? In the baseball analogy, He'd be the coach, or the desire in you as you try to master the new issue.
I am looking at what backwards? Benefits from the journey before the journey? So continual sin is milestones on a road map? I'm really trying to understand. What is the issue (and where is it in the Bible) that say I must sin in order to grow?
You don't set out to not sin, think you achieve it, and then proclaim to be a mature believer. that's not how scripture shows it.
You learn to love, this is Maturity. You learn to love through works, and your understanding matures through experience from the works. AFTER you get the love right, OR rather, are led to that point by God's coaching, then the result is, you do not sin. THIS is how you know someone loves God. If you abide in love, God abides in you and you in Him. Until you have the love, you won't keep the commandments. You may work at it really hard, and be really successful sometimes.... but until the love is right, the obedience still struggles along.
Where does it say that falling after I accept Christ is a prerequisite for maturity?
This is called a strawman. You can learn about that at wikipedia, or dictionary.com.
1 Peter 2 tells us that Christ is our example and he was without sin. So you are telling me that I'm supposed to ignore the example of Christ for the sake of a "journey" or "process?"
why don't you deal with what I did say, rather than try to paint I said something I didn't? We'll get along better, I promise.
I'm telling you that maturity develops, it's not an altar call and POOF YOU GOT IT! And as it develops, you may screw up. Thus 1 john 1:9. Through the screw ups, you are taught, guided, directed by God. But, you are focused on sin. That's a satanic red herring.
The focus is on love. Not sin. There is no fear in love, as fear is a fear of punishment. A punishment for your sins causes the fear. You wreak of fear here. You are ONLY looking at your fear. But, the lesson here, is if you have learned the love, you don't fear the punishment. Your chosen path runs from fear, not to love. It's doomed to fail until it's changed.
IOW perhaps this is just part of your journey.
I knew this element of Grace was going to come up but Paul asked the question, "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?" First, the foundation of God's grace is while we were yet sinners, Christ came down to die for OUR sins that we might be reconciled to God. That being said, people use grace as a free bucket of get out of jail free cards when they decide to sin. While it is there because we have an advocate before the Father, lets look at what Paul said. Also, after I give my life to Christ, what benefit does sin bring to my life?
This paragraph has nothing to do with anything I've said. NOR with the topic. It's a fractal drop of information.
I'm lost on how you are reading Romans 6:22. First, karpón doesn't really mean benefit. It literally means fruit, also the base of this word is used when Jesus states that will will know a tree by its fruit and karpón is the exact word used in John 15 when Jesus sas that whoever abides in him bears much fruit; "for without Me, you can do nothing." karpoón is used by Jesus in Matthew 7, when He say by their fruits we shall know them. That being said,
Tell me does "benefit" or "fruit" change anything? Or are you just trying to demonstrate you can use a Strongs concordance?
So, what are you asking about Rom 6:22. I think I explained it out in detail when I posted it, although perhaps that was in another thread, but I think it was here.... I have to tell you, in four different conversations, I'm at a point where people are just repeating the same words over and over, and ignoring answers already given more than once. I don't think I can explain how disrespectful that is, and how it shows you find opposition to your thoughts insignificant and not even worth considering. Why not just buy a dang soapbox and plant it on a corner and tell the whole world what you want them to believe and be done with it?
ROm 6:22 shows freed from sins, atonement frees you from sins. After that you go into the obedience stage, or slave to God. From that struggle you gain a benefit. And the benefit, not the obedience is what leads you to maturity/sanctification.
Don't tell me I'm wrong if you can't show me where and how. You have not earned the right to just deny what i've said without an answer.
I'm not giving myself credit for anything but I also understand that we just don't come to Christ and sit still. We just don't accept the Lord and then never read or pray. Again, this goes back to the Armor of God.
So, let's do it your way. You go sit in the closet and read and pray. You come up with some idea of what it means. No one else in the world agrees (in this example), but you swear you got the Spirit of GOD teaching you. So the world is wrong and you are right. So what happens? Historically you go make your own church/denomination.
Eph 4 says that through works, led by the leaders of the CHURCH you get UNITY and KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST.
Look, you've yet to address the ephesians 4 explanations. Until you do, I'm just repeating myself.
Ephesians 6:13 tells us to put on the whole armour (some KJV for ya ;-) ) of God so we can stand.
Ephesians 4 shows that you are led by the church to build your armor. So what's your point? Rather than let the people trained to make the armor do their job, you are piecing your own armor together. I get the picture of....
Show me in Bible where it say we come to Christ and do nothing.
I don't think I can. I've never said it. I don't think anyone else has said it either. Are you arguing with your imagination and ignoring what I say?
Regarding 1 Cor. 8, reread it for context. What he is saying is don't ever thing we are so high that we forget that loves is what build and grows. For those who have not come to the full knowledge of Christ and don't understand true liberty in Christ, certain things that we know is not sin may confuse those who don't know yet. We should not let our knowledge be a roadblock to those who aren't mature. We should not use our knowledge to put down one that is weak but love to build them up. Yes, works doesn't build but love does. Nothing is wrong with having to much scripture in our heart. Where did you get that from?
You can't LOVE without works. AGAPAO without the works, is phileo. With out the acting on the love, it's a dream and warm fuzzies. Only through doing those gal 5:6 works will you get to maturity.
You just proved my point in your last paragraph, and you don't even know it. Which isn't unusual since most of your arguments aren't what I spoke of.
Actually, the pennacle of our spiritual maturity is being like Christ, which if you look at, totally encompass the fruit of the Spirit.
Open your eyes, stop closing them and drawing your own pictures. GO READ EPHESIANS FOUR PLEASE. The fruit of the spirit is the benefit of having the Spirit. NOT ACTS YOU PERFORM TO SUMMON THE SPIRIT. You either have it or you don't. If you have it, the fruit is demonstrated in your life/actions.
Note taken on the Holy Spirit, but if that's the case, where was it when the pitcher needed to become a lefty?
He was the catcher, seeing what was wrong and guiding the pitcher to get better.
