Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Kerry]

Believe in the One God sent.

Trust Him to lead me Home.

Come back on the Path when He corrects me.



Do as He asks of me.

Do not deny my faith under the sword.

Walk pleasingly before God (fulfill His will).

Die to my flesh.

Become alive to my spirit.

What work can I do for salvation: believe in the One He sent. And the One He sent says: You come and you follow Me.

Nice question, Kerry

You left out the most important one, place my faith in the work of the Cross and nothing else.

 

[cfultz3]

You left out the most important one, place my faith in the work of the Cross and nothing else.

Sweet.....

I thought 'placing faith in the Cross' was implied in the first answer........

A faith which is active by love is the only thing which matters to Jesus

 

[Hoffco]

Sweet.....

I thought 'placing faith in the Cross' was implied in the first answer........

A faith which is active by love is the only thing which matters to Jesus

The thing you missed is: I make my faith a living faith by, obeying Jesus. You talk of FOLLOWING, good, but, then you must say, I trust and obey Jesus, that is how I know I am saved, no works/no faith! This is the message of the Bible, no works/ no faith. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[cfultz3]

The thing you missed is: I make my faith a living faith by, obeying Jesus. You talk of FOLLOWING, good, but, then you must say, I trust and obey Jesus, that is how I know I am saved, no works/no faith! This is the message of the Bible, no works/ no faith. Love to all, Hoffco

Could not have said it any better...Thanks Hoffco

 

[Radius]

is the OP Catholic?

 

[Kerry]

Faith is unseen and cannot be judged as the a fore post boast. We cannot see the heart of a man, yes we can see the fruit and what is that fruit? Doing what you think is right? Yes the the fruit and what is the fruit? Combining your hair in the right way. Cutting the church Grass. I meant what is the fruit, fasting for 21 days? Giving out water bottles? Passing out tracks, Church attendance? what is the fruit? Being Kind to people? Oh I know, reading the bible and praying for ten hours a day, no that's not it. Then what is the fruit? I would liked to know.

 

[Elin]

If you cannot loose salvation by whatever means, then may I go and live as lasciviously as my heart desires?

You reveal in this question that you do not know what saving faith is,

that you do not know the work done in the heart of one who is born again,

that he no longer desires lasciviousness.

If one still desires it, one has not been born again of the Holy Spirit.

One has simply chosen to reform one's life.

 

[Elin]

What has never been true? That those who persevere until the end will receive everlasting life? But, we understand from Scripture that
those who do not persevere has fallen from grace,

That is not what Paul is saying in Gal.

If a Christian justified by grace then tries to justify himself by being circumcised according to the law,

he has fallen from grace. . . into law, and law keeping cannot save him.

He will die in his sin.

 

[Radius]

You reveal in this question that you do not know what saving faith is,

that you do not know the work done in the heart of one who is born again,

that he no longer desires lasciviousness.

If one still desires it, one has not been born again of the Holy Spirit.

One has simply chosen to reform one's life.

Exactly. If you come to the Lord IN REPENTANCE, but still desire and want to sin then I don't think you genuine are repentive and therefore *probably* not saved.

 

[newbirth]

That is not what Paul is saying in Gal.

If a Christian justified by grace then tries to justify himself by being circumcised according to the law,

he has fallen from grace. . . into law, and law keeping cannot save him.

He will die in his sin.

then he did not persevere in faith...persevere is not a bad word ...it means to persist, continue, carry on, go on, keep on, keep going, struggle on ...which is exactly what Paul is saying

 

[Elin]

That is not what Paul is saying in Gal.

If a Christian justified by grace then tries to justify himself by being circumcised according to the law,

he has fallen from grace. . . into law, and law keeping cannot save him.

He will die in his sin.

then he did not persevere in faith...persevere is not a bad word ...it means to persist, continue, carry on, go on, keep on, keep going, struggle on ...which is exactly what Paul is saying

Justifying himself is not falling away from "faith."

It manifests that he has no true faith.

His "faith" is counterfeit (Mt 7:21-23) because it does not have the root of rebirth (Lk 8:13).

 

[Elin]

P.S.:

He can persevere in his counterfeit faith, and he will still die in his sin.

 

[SeaBass]

Paul disagrees.

No unregenerate person is even able to do good works until he is regenerated; i.e.,
born again into eternal life, which is salvation.

God himself makes the wicked righteous (justifies them), and then their faith produces obedience.

If God didn't make the wicked righteous, no one would be righteous.


Ro 8:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

(There is no doing of any good works by the unregenerate nature.)

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked,"

And if I may add, the fundamental flaw of works for salvation is unbelief of Ro 8:7-8, 4:5.

Human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God
with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the regenerated (born again) who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures, or the power of God." (Mt 22:29)

Paul in Rom 6 has made working righeousness a requirment for salvation.

Rom 6:16 Paul said "obedience unto righteousness".
Rom 6:17,18 the order of events, Paul put obedience BEFORE freed from sin:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then freed from sin/justified.


The context of Romans 8 has nothing to do with the Calvinistic ideas of being "regenerate" or "unregenerate".

Rom 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

A person can choose to either set their mind on the flesh or on the spirit. A person minds what he freely chooses to mind

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

The ungodly must first obediently believe before he can be justified. "HIS faith" "his" refers back to the ungodly that obediently believe.

1Pet 4:18 "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

There is a contrast between the righteous that are scarcely saved and the ungodly.

 

[SeaBass]

It is troubling that you don't realize you just contradicted yourself there.
That has never been true.

1 Jn 2:25 "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

Eternal life is a promise and because a Christian can lose that promise does not make eternal life any less eternal. It's still eternal but that Christian just no longer possesses the promise of it anymore.

 

[SeaBass]

Hebrews 10:12-14

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The group Christian (the "them" in Heb 10:14) are the ones sanctified and this group will be for certain sanctified. But one can become unfaithful and fall away from that sanctified group and be lost.

 

[SeaBass]

Let us see if a Bible teacher can overcome the false teachers here.

[TABLE="width: 400"]
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[TD="colspan: 3"]Q & A: Conditional Salvation?
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[/TR]
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[TD="colspan: 3"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"] Conditional Salvation?
Ask a Bible Teacher
By Jack Kelley

Question: My husband is convinced that you can lose your salvation. (Answer)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I dare the false teachers to read the entire article so that they may come to repentance. If they're of a mind to.
For the Christians among us, may this be a blessing that bolsters your resolve to meet the enemy and turn them back when they try to convince the sanctified that they can choose to leave Christ and make his sacrifice a temporary conditional illusion of ours.

May God have mercy.

Your link says:

The second part of Hebrews 10:14 describes us as being made holy, implying a process. The sacrifice saved us, but didn't make us completely holy. That's the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, which will never be complete as long as we're alive. This implies that we're still sinners, even though saved.

Seabass: Again, the "them" in Heb 10:14 refers tothe group Christain and not to any individual unconditionally. It is the group that is sanctified and not the individual unconditionally apart from the group.


Your link: If we could prevent ourselves from sinning, God wouldn't have had to die for us. But knowing that we couldn't He first died for our sins and then prescribed a remedy for our re-occurrences, 1 John 1:9. It's there so we can restore ourselves to righteousness, and there's no limit on its use.

Your link just made salvation CONDITIONAL, that ofr the Christian to remain sved he must CONDITIOALLY confess his sis in order to be forgiven.

1 n 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

If eternal security were true, then 1 Jn 1:9 is false for eternal security says one does not have to conditionally confess his sins else be lost. Is a Christians salvation CONDITIONAL upon him confessing his sins?

Your link says: The third thing they misunderstand is Hebrews 6. It was written to Jewish Christians who were trying to maintain both New and Old Covenant relationships. The writer explained that by trying to maintain their relationship with God through sacrifices and offerings they were in fact losing it because by their human effort they were declaring the Lord's work insufficient. Hebrews 6 is not about our salvation. It's about our fellowship.

Your link admits the Hebrew writer is speaking about Christians in Heb 6:4,5. And verse 6 says "if they shall fall away" meaning fall away from that saved state mentioned in verses 4 and 5. Your link tries to twist this and say they fall away from fellowship and not salvation. But even falling out of fellowship with God is a lost state.


Your link says "And the fourth thing is grace. Grace is an unmerited favor. Anytime you interject any form of work into the equation, you nullify the effect of grace"

Your link does not understand works and grace that God's grace is CONDITIONAL upon man's obedient works, Heb 5:9

 

[SeaBass]

is the OP Catholic?

No.

Member of the church of Christ.

 

[notuptome]

Your link does not understand works and grace that God's grace is CONDITIONAL upon man's obedient works, Heb 5:9

Now I see! You are correct and everybody else is wrong. I did not know that there was room in the trinity for you.

You are changing the image of the Incorruptible God into corruptible things.

Gods grace is freely given and without expectation of repayment. You act like God is selling tickets to heaven. Shame on you!

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Faith is unseen and cannot be judged as the a fore post boast. We cannot see the heart of a man, yes we can see the fruit and what is that fruit? Doing what you think is right? Yes the the fruit and what is the fruit? Combining your hair in the right way. Cutting the church Grass. I meant what is the fruit, fasting for 21 days? Giving out water bottles? Passing out tracks, Church attendance? what is the fruit? Being Kind to people? Oh I know, reading the bible and praying for ten hours a day, no that's not it. Then what is the fruit? I would liked to know.

Faith can be seen...."When Jesus saw their faith,.." Mk 2:5

What Jesus saw that is called faith are the works those men were doing.

 

[SeaBass]

Now I see! You are correct and everybody else is wrong. I did not know that there was room in the trinity for you.

You are changing the image of the Incorruptible God into corruptible things.

Gods grace is freely given and without expectation of repayment. You act like God is selling tickets to heaven. Shame on you!

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Tts 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

If reception of God's grace is unconditional, then all men will be saved. Since all men are not saved then reception of God's grace must be conditional....conditional upon man's obedience to God's will, Heb 5:9.

And we know that obedience to God's will earns man nothing, Rom 4:4,5 and that God's free grace comes with conditions and meeting those conditions earn nothing:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html