Contradiction of WORDS

[dcontroversal]

Yes, good works come from salvation which comes from faith.

You've almost got it Biblically correct.

Gift of faith--->salvation--->good works of faith.

This concept is so simplistic and true...it amazes me that people are blind to it.....BE not removed from the SIMPLICITY that is FOUND IN CHRIST......they make it harder than it really is....It pleased God dia the preaching of the cross to save them that BELIEVE!<------childlike faith saves and that is what it teaches for sure!

 

[psychomom]

y'know, that a Christian will do 'works' is undeniable.

but everything we do, no matter how great it may seem to us, is tainted.
not one of us has the absolutely pristine motives behind what we do that Jesus did.
and God cares about what motivates us to be obedient.

where did we get the idea that if we obey even when we don't want to...
when our hearts are far from Him...that it's something to brag about or be proud of?

now, please don't respond with, are you saying we shouldn't be obedient?!?
because, of course we ought, even when we don't want to...
but let's don't confuse that with the Righteousness God requires in His perfect Law.

even after God saves us, all we do is tainted by sin...
it's never perfect enough to satisfy God's righteous demands.

we're always motivated by something less than purity.
we do things to be recognized...for ourselves.
or to assuage our conscience...for ourselves.
or to satisfy someone else...for ourselves.
i'm sure y'all could add to that list.

oh, yeah, and in case you missed it, here's the rest of the thought someone posted:

Phil 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

and for good measure, Phil 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

it ain't about us, folks...it about God. ♥

 

[jdbear]

When you start believing the word of God, you will be getting somewhere.

Ro 5:18:

"the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

Speaking of God unjustly is slander. Remember you heard from me.

 

[newbirth]

No one has to do the work of believing to be saved? The unbelievers are saved?

No one has to do the work of repenting to be saved? The impenitent are saved?

No one has to do the owrk of confessing to be saved? The deniers of Christ will be saved?

No one has to do the work in submitting to baptism for remission of sins? Those in their unforgiven sins will be saved?

well done SeaBass....a very clear understanding of being saved by grace through faith....faith without works is dead


Romans 5:1-3King James Version (KJV)
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;


ASV is for Atwood

Romans 5:1-3American Standard Version (ASV)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness;


if you go back to chapter 4 you will notice the faith of Abraham being 100 yrs old with his barren wife expecting to have a son...do you think he would be having relations with his wife if he did not believed God....how else would he have a son? and they claim Abraham only believed...

 

[newbirth]

y'know, that a Christian will do 'works' is undeniable.

but everything we do, no matter how great it may seem to us, is tainted.
not one of us has the absolutely pristine motives behind what we do that Jesus did.
and God cares about what motivates us to be obedient.

where did we get the idea that if we obey even when we don't want to...
when our hearts are far from Him...that it's something to brag about or be proud of?

now, please don't respond with, are you saying we shouldn't be obedient?!?
because, of course we ought, even when we don't want to...
but let's don't confuse that with the Righteousness God requires in His perfect Law.

even after God saves us, all we do is tainted by sin...
it's never perfect enough to satisfy God's righteous demands.

we're always motivated by something less than purity.
we do things to be recognized...for ourselves.
or to assuage our conscience...for ourselves.
or to satisfy someone else...for ourselves.
i'm sure y'all could add to that list.

oh, yeah, and in case you missed it, here's the rest of the thought someone posted:

Phil 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

and for good measure, Phil 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

it ain't about us, folks...it about God. ♥

you are calling the children of God tainted
Ephesians 5:6-11King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
[SUP]9 [/SUP](For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

 

[Atwood]

y'know, that a Christian will do 'works' is undeniable.
but everything we do, no matter how great it may seem to us, is tainted.

Christians indeed stumble in many ways, but Christians can walk by the Spirit and actually love: The fruit of the Spirit is love. The Christian has 2 modes of operation: he can operate according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. Everything we do is not tainted. We can be rooted & grounded in love & filled to al the fullness of God. It may well be that many things we think are done by God's Spirit are in fact done according to the flesh and look good. But Christians are enabled actually to love neighbor as self, and when we do that all of the commandments are fulfilled. Christians are able to say: "I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." We are also able to be in a carnal state: "I am carnal, sold under sin" (Rom 7).

Christians at times do walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

 

[Atwood]

you are calling the children of God tainted

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, & the truth is not in us."

Better to be tainted and to be ain'ted. Better a saint with a taint, than to be an ain't.

Do you realize the depth of your depravity, NewB?
Will you ever cry out: "God be merciful to me a sinner"?

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

[NO WATER]

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[NO WATER]


Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

[NO WATER]


Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

[NO WATER]


Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

[NO WATER]

 

[newbirth]

Rom 10
3 For being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone that believeth.

It appears that the basic problem with those who deny salvation by grace and who define salvation as something one can lose, is that they are insisting on a pretended self-righteousness that they do not have, like the Pharisee in the parable of the Publican. I suspect that SB and others actually imagine that they are good boys doing good daily and not sinning significantly; they don't admit the depth of their depravity and how their vile behavior demands that they either be saved by grace or be condemned for their works.

And to expand their delusion, they throw in the idol of water, with the idea that the human work of water-immersion is a savior. Not giving heed to the multitude of passages that require of man only faith, with no mention of water.

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

[no water]

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

[no water]


John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

NO WATER!

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.

[no water]

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[No Water]

a lot of talk about believe...do you believe Christ said this?...you gotta do what the word says....
Mark 16:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Matthew 17:5

• King James Version
  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[Atwood]

Salvation is the same in the OT (NO WATER)

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.

 

[elf3]

Just for fun I'll state this again but this time I will use English.

We are justified by faith. We will do good works because of our faith. Our good works don't save us. We don't have to do good works to be saved. But, and listen carefully, that is no reason to keep sinning.

Some people here have been saying that I have been saying we can keep sinning. NO! I have NEVER said that or even eluded to it. Have I ever once said "our faith saves us but you can keep sinning because we are not saved by our good works"?

OK yeah by some people I mean seabass. You are putting words in my mouth that I never even eluded to. Keep putting words in my mouth yeah keep going because anyone can go back and read all my posts and see that I never said anything like that. So by proof of written text they will all see what you skippy are doing.

 

[jdbear]

Originally posted by psychomom,
and for good measure, Phil 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that*He*who began a good work in you*will perfect it*until the day of Christ Jesus.

it ain't about us, folks...it about God.*

If you lived when Jesus walked on earth and you heard His teachings and saw the miracles He did and you believed in God and repented of your sins, would you say God began a good work in you?

 

[newbirth]

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, & the truth is not in us."

Better to be tainted and to be ain'ted. Better a saint with a taint, than to be an ain't.

Do you realize the depth of your depravity, NewB?
Will you ever cry out: "God be merciful to me a sinner"?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




where does it say he cleanse us of some unrighteousness and we remain tainted?

When you cried out ...."God be merciful to me a sinner" did God taint you?

 

[Atwood]

a lot of talk about believe...do you believe Christ said this?...you gotta do what the word says....

Mark 16 does not say that water-immersion saves, neither is water mentioned in it.
The Word says over & over without any water, that belief/faith is all man need do to be saved:


Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

[NO WATER]

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[NO WATER]

Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

[NO WATER]

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

[NO WATER]

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

[NO WATER]

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

[NO WATER]

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

[NO WATER]

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[NO WATER]


BTW, The believer is never blotted out!

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved!

[NO WATER]

 

[dcontroversal]

It's amazing at what lengths people will go and effort they make to refuse to understand a simple concept that free gifts can have conditions.............all just to protect man made teachings.

Yeah about as amazing as one who rejects the simple truth to add his own works to the equation...A free gift is exactly that a free gift....it is that simple concept that is tainted by your works for pseudo gospel.....you cannot work for a gift that has been given already....The work was done from the foundation of the world........!

 

[Atwood]

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

where does it say he cleanse us of some unrighteousness and we remain tainted?

When you cried out ...."God be merciful to me a sinner" did God taint you?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us; for how we got tainted, read Gen 3 & Rom 5.

1 Jn 1:9 applies only to "us," that is believers. So instead of arguing it, the unbeliever is urged to do that call "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trust Christ as Savior, become a saint, instead of an ain't.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[NO WATER]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

[NO AGUA]

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

[NO WATER]

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

[NO WATER]

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

[NO WATER]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[NO WATER]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47

[NO WATER]

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36

[NO WATER]

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

[NO WATER]

 

[newbirth]

Works are works and your twist here of words sets forth the ignorance of your approach to doctrine dude.....and again you totally miss the mark on the James text as the whole context of JAMES is SHOW ME YOUR FAITH...PAUL clearly teaches that A MAN WILL NOT BE JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY WORKS OF righteousness SO keep on twisting and wresting the word to your own demise.

this is funny ...you can say genuine faith and saving faith but someone else cannot say works of merit...lol

 

[dcontroversal]

this is funny ...you can say genuine faith and saving faith but someone else cannot say works of merit...lol

works do not save.....faith saves period.....and that is what it is about.....the bible teaches that faith saves period as it is based upon the perfect faith of Jesus and nothing else.......

 

[Atwood]

this is funny ...you can say genuine faith and saving faith but someone else cannot say works of merit...lol

NewB, It is taught in the Bible that there is a kind of faith which is believing that something is so, & that such faith does not save (demons have it). Faith leads to salvation very frequently in the Bible (your faith has saved you). Thus it is only sophistry that objects to "saving faith" as an expression. Now concocting a difference between good works, obedient works, and meritorious works is playing with word irrationally. All good works are works of obedience & meritorious. And human works (regardless) are excluded from being a cause of salvation.

You seem to try so hard to keep yourself from being saved with your blindness.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
joy,
[NO WATER]
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[NO WATER]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

[NO WATER]
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

[NO WATER]

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

[NO WATER]
Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[NO WATER]

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

[NO WATER]

1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

[NO WATER]

 

[newbirth]

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us; for how we got tainted, read Gen 3 & Rom 5.

1 Jn 1:9 applies only to "us," that is believers. So instead of arguing it, the unbeliever is urged to do that call "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trust Christ as Savior, become a saint, instead of an ain't.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

you believe and do nothing that makes you a hearer not a doer of the word...you claim to trust but you do not obey anything he teaches....
vs 26 for the obedience of faith...you believe but you must obey what you believe....if you have nothing to obey then you believe nothing...

Romans 16:25-27King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

 

[jdbear]

Grace means UNMERITED FAVOR[/U]

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" Titus1 2:11

Would you say, since God's grace appeared to the world, the world has been shown God's unmerited favor?