Contradiction of WORDS

[dcontroversal]

If if you like, go ahead with the next one, we certainly didn't get anywhere with this one. LOL.

y
You did explain it, but I just don't see how you can say we are not justified by works To me that is what he is sAying.
see also,Jas. 2:24t

Being justified FREELY by HIS GRACE, through the BUY BACK (redemption) that is In Christ JESUS

To declare at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that HE might be JUST and the JUSTIFIER of him the BELIEVETH in JESUS

For is ABRAHAM were JUSTIFIED by WORKS , he hath whereof to glory (brag) BUT NOT BEFORE GOD

EVEN as DAVID also DESCRIBETH the BLESSEDNESS of the MAN, unto whom GOD IMPUTHETH RIGHTEOUSNESS without WORKS

Therefore by the DEEDS OF THE LAW (WORKS) there shall no FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in HIS SIGHT

James is speaking of our faith being justified before men BY OUR WORKS

OUR FAITH that we say we have is vindicated before men by our works, but before GOD we have been justified BY simple belief (faith) WITHOUT WORKS......SO simple that a child can understand.....JIVE THE ABOVE VERSES with your WORKS for justification before GOD which contradicts hundreds of scripture in context

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, why else would Christ have died for us on the cross.

No doubt, as there is none good no not one and all are sinning (present active indicative form of the verb) and continually falling short of the glory of God......!

 

[elf3]

Okay, I will do that. Finally someone with a question without name calling. Since there are several people on this board who despise works and think they have nothing to do with salvation I will list a few of these important Scriptures.


Rom. 2:6; Matt. 16:27; James 2:24; Rev. 20:12; Matt. 7:21; Heb. 5:8-9; 2nd Cor. 5'10; yes, I realize there are a lot of scriptures that just mention faith. But you have to consider all of Gods word not just part of it.

Now the next 3 verses or group of verses (I added verses for clarification and context) do not deal with justification in any way period.

Justification-"A reckoning or counting as righteous" (Westminster Dictionary of Theological terms)

Matthew 16:27, Revelations 20:12 (13) and 2 Corinthians 5:10 (9-11) all deal with some type of reward we will receive when we come before Jesus. I guess somehow we will be judged and rewarded by the "good works" we have done in this life. Now I will state plainly "I have no idea what these rewards might be".

Now what these verses do describe should wake up any "sleeping" Christian. Since God tells us there is some type of reward in the end it really should kind of encourage us to do "good works".

But again in these verses they do not describe justification by works. And they do not condemn any Christian who doesn't or cannot do any "good works".

 

[SeaBass]

No...Paul put PAYING HEED to that FORM of DOCTRINE which brought JUSTIFICATION...you still fail to use the correct definition of the word OBEY and what it meant to a 1st century believer....You still fail to understand that salvation comes based upon FAITH into the CORRECT MESSAGE..........!

You are simply denying what Paul said.

 

[SeaBass]

And by repeating over and over and over again an example which has nothing to do with biblical salvation proves you fail to acknowledge the fact that the examples you use are contradictory to the actual truth of biblical salvation......

1. Was Noah saved and righteous before he built the ark?
2. Did Abraham have FAITH before he was circumcised?
3. Was Abel righteous before he offered BLOOD?

You fail to see that biblical salvation comes to a man based upon the act of faith and that it has nothing at all to do with obedient works as a man CANNOT UNDERSTAND the WILL of GOD and WHAT works are required of a faithful servant BEFORE a man is genuinely born again of the SPIRIT......SO.....you KEEP putting the cart before the OX and fail to understand that a TREE MUST be BORN of a SEED, grow a bit, mature a bit and THEN PRODUCE fruit!

...and you still have no valid argument.


It DOES NOT MATTER IF it had anything to do with Naaman's salvation or not, it is a BIBLICAL EXAMPLE of God's grace requiring a condition of dipping and Naaman work did not mean he earned God's grace.

If Naaman could do a work in dipping and gain his healing by God's grace and Naaman earned nothing, then one could do an obedient work in gaining salvation and that work earns NOTHING exactly as Naaman's worked earned him nothing.

 

[dcontroversal]

You are simply denying what Paul said.

You should look the word obey up and study it and quit flapping your lips.....Your failure to acknowledge the word from the Greek and what it meant to a first century believer proves your inability to be open to biblical instruction...so whatever dude...keep believing your works for salvation. COC doctrine and Alexander Campbell over the bible and see where it gets you and probably very soon as well as time runs short for lost humanity!

 

[SeaBass]

Well go back to chapter one and start over as Paul is WRITING THESE THING UNTO SAVED children of God called to BE SAINTS...You still fail to understand the difference between SAVING FAITH and GODLY LIVING after one is SAVED and SEALED by the SPIRIT of GOD dia FAITH.....!

The Roman epistle begins with "obedience to the faith" Rom 1:5 and ends with "obedience of faith" Rom 16:26.

 

[SeaBass]

Being justified FREELY by HIS GRACE, through the BUY BACK (redemption) that is In Christ JESUS

To declare at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: that HE might be JUST and the JUSTIFIER of him the BELIEVETH in JESUS

For is ABRAHAM were JUSTIFIED by WORKS , he hath whereof to glory (brag) BUT NOT BEFORE GOD

EVEN as DAVID also DESCRIBETH the BLESSEDNESS of the MAN, unto whom GOD IMPUTHETH RIGHTEOUSNESS without WORKS

Therefore by the DEEDS OF THE LAW (WORKS) there shall no FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in HIS SIGHT

James is speaking of our faith being justified before men BY OUR WORKS

OUR FAITH that we say we have is vindicated before men by our works, but before GOD we have been justified BY simple belief (faith) WITHOUT WORKS......SO simple that a child can understand.....JIVE THE ABOVE VERSES with your WORKS for justification before GOD which contradicts hundreds of scripture in context

Rom 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Justification is free by God's grace, so it CANNOT be earned. But even though it is free/unearned it does not happen UNCONDITIONALLY.

One must be CONDITIONALLY be "in Christ Jesus" for this free justification and redemption to occur. One must obey the gospel in believing repenting confessing and then being baptized into Christ Gal 3:27. But this obedience cannot earn a free gift that has already been offered but are necessary conditions placed upon the free gift. So God's grace is free and available to all, so why do not all people receive this free gift? Not all will CONDITIONALLY be in Christ.

2 Tim 2:1 "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus,"

Both grace and redemeption are CONDITIONALLY found in Christ Jesus. It takes obedience in submitting to baptism to be in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:27. So can that obedience earn grace God has already freely given? No.

 

[dcontroversal]

...and you still have no valid argument.


It DOES NOT MATTER IF it had anything to do with Naaman's salvation or not, it is a BIBLICAL EXAMPLE of God's grace requiring a condition of dipping and Naaman work did not mean he earned God's grace.

If Naaman could do a work in dipping and gain his healing by God's grace and Naaman earned nothing, then one could do an obedient work in gaining salvation and that work earns NOTHING exactly as Naaman's worked earned him nothing.

The only one here who fails to have a valid argument about N.T. grace as applied unto biblical salvation is you as Naaman is not an acceptable comparison and you prove your inability to do two things...

1. Be open to learning and instruction
2. An inability to understand N.T. grace as applied unto salvation

So...like I said....By the book of Galatians you teach and stand on a heretical view which will take you to hell/lake of fire...!

FAITH plus works for salvation = LOST and in your sins!

 

[SeaBass]

You should look the word obey up and study it and quit flapping your lips.....Your failure to acknowledge the word from the Greek and what it meant to a first century believer proves your inability to be open to biblical instruction...so whatever dude...keep believing your works for salvation. COC doctrine and Alexander Campbell over the bible and see where it gets you and probably very soon as well as time runs short for lost humanity!

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Rom 6:17 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

Rom 6:18 "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.:

The three words come from the Greek hypakouo.
Strong's:

1. 
   [*=left]to listen, to harken
   
   1. 
      [*=left]of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
   
   [*=left]to harken to a command
   
   1. 
      [*=left]to obey, be obedient to, submit to

Note how "obedience unto righteousness" becomes "obeyed from the heart...being then made free from sin"(justification)

Both times obeying comes BEFORE being justified and righteous.

 

[dcontroversal]

Rom 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Justification is free by God's grace, so it CANNOT be earned. But even though it is free/unearned it does not happen UNCONDITIONALLY.

One must be CONDITIONALLY be "in Christ Jesus" for this free justification and redemption to occur. One must obey the gospel in believing repenting confessing and then being baptized into Christ Gal 3:27. But this obedience cannot earn a free gift that has already been offered but are necessary conditions placed upon the free gift. So God's grace is free and available to all, so why do not all people receive this free gift? Not all will CONDITIONALLY be in Christ.

2 Tim 2:1 "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus,"

Both grace and redemeption are CONDITIONALLY found in Christ Jesus. It takes obedience in submitting to baptism to be in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:27. So can that obedience earn grace God has already freely given? No.

You just totally quote a verse that proves that justification is FREE and based UPON GRACE that is found IN JESUS and then add water/works to the verse...are you really that blind....

Rom 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"<---I SEE no where PLUS water and works...so keep adding to the word and you will be found FALSE and will hear the words...depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU.....! And it is equally evident that you don't understand this verse and the word redemption!

 

[SeaBass]

The only one here who fails to have a valid argument about N.T. grace as applied unto biblical salvation is you as Naaman is not an acceptable comparison and you prove your inability to do two things...

1. Be open to learning and instruction
2. An inability to understand N.T. grace as applied unto salvation

So...like I said....By the book of Galatians you teach and stand on a heretical view which will take you to hell/lake of fire...!

FAITH plus works for salvation = LOST and in your sins!

Sad how man-made theologies put people in the position to have to purposely misunderstand the simple things of the bible.

Naaman's obedience did not mean he earned God's grace = my obedience does not mean I earned God's grace.

 

[SeaBass]

You just totally quote a verse that proves that justification is FREE and based UPON GRACE that is found IN JESUS and then add water/works to the verse...are you really that blind....

Rom 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"<---I SEE no where PLUS water and works...so keep adding to the word and you will be found FALSE and will hear the words...depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU.....! And it is equally evident that you don't understand this verse and the word redemption!

Yes, it's free but CONDITIONALLY IN CHRIST. If it were UNconditional as some erroneously say, then one would not even have to be in Christ to be saved. Yet Paul told Timothy grace is "in Christ Jesus" and one must obey to be in Christ where grace is found. Does that obedience earn the grace? No.

Again, how does one get into Christ? By baptism, Gal 3:27 so there is your water and obedient work.

 

[dcontroversal]

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Rom 6:17 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

Rom 6:18 "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.:

The three words come from the Greek hypakouo.
Strong's:

1. 
   [*=left]to listen, to harken
   1. 
      [*=left]of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
   
   [*=left]to harken to a command
   1. 
      [*=left]to obey, be obedient to, submit to

Note how "obedience unto righteousness" becomes "obeyed from the heart...being then made free from sin"(justification)

Both times obeying comes BEFORE being justified and righteous.

Again you quote scriptures that have been written unto people WHO ARE ALREADY SAVED and the (HEAR UNDER AUTHORITY BY THE WORD) will YIELD works of righteousness in a BELIEVERS LIFE.....applying scripture that is given unto SAVED people does not equate to the SALVATION that they already have based upon the faith of Christ...NO MATTER how you twist it Sea PERCH it will not equate out to salvation based upon works.....

A child BY BIRTH
AN OBEDIENT CHILD by PLACING yourself under the word of the FATHER...

More COC Campbellite dogma!

 

[SeaBass]

Again you quote scriptures that have been written unto people WHO ARE ALREADY SAVED and the (HEAR UNDER AUTHORITY BY THE WORD) will YIELD works of righteousness in a BELIEVERS LIFE.....applying scripture that is given unto SAVED people does not equate to the SALVATION that they already have based upon the faith of Christ...NO MATTER how you twist it Sea PERCH it will not equate out to salvation based upon works.....

A child BY BIRTH
AN OBEDIENT CHILD by PLACING yourself under the word of the FATHER...

More COC Campbellite dogma!

It was Paul that put obedience BEFORE justification, not me. And you simply do not like it so you attack me for what Paul said.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, it's free but CONDITIONALLY IN CHRIST. If it were UNconditional as some erroneously say, then one would not even have to be in Christ to be saved. Yet Paul told Timothy grace is "in Christ Jesus" and one must obey to be in Christ where grace is found. Does that obedience earn the grace? No.

Again, how does one get into Christ? By baptism, Gal 3:27 so there is your water and obedient work.

Again like the OP...you twist words to teach your heretical doctrine while failing to understand that the BUYBACK that is in Jesus is based upon MERCY, GRACE, and FAITH into the PERFECT FAITH of CHRIST.....CHRIST CANNOT DENY SELF and this is where you miss the mark...The FATHER is SATISIFIED with the COMPLETED work of JESUS and salvation is a once for all COMPLETED act based ENTIRELY ON JESUS and HIS WORK BEFORE THE FATHER!

 

[elf3]

SeaBass go back a bit in this forum to where gator and I started discussing the Bible verses he mentioned (sorry I can't give you numbers as \he post numbers don't show up on my phone). Just read through my explanations and gators responses along with other responses pertaining to the passages. I don't know maybe this will help. Just an idea.

 

[dcontroversal]

It was Paul that put obedience BEFORE justification, not me. And you simply do not like it so you attack me for what Paul said.

No...What I don't like is the fact that you constantly use scripture out of context that is given to people who are already saved to try and twist salvation to fit your works for salvation dogma!

 

[Atwood]

Why so afraid to give a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer to such a simple question?

You mean like you are afraid to give a simple answer yes or no to this one, which has been asked you a number of times now:

Are you claiming that all the Presbyterians who believe in the Son of God (trust the Savior Lord Jesus), yet never get immersed in water (only sprinkled) go to the Lake of Fire?

 

[Atwood]

Romans 6 is not a passage on salvation, but the Christian Life after Saved.
And it has no water in it. Also, it never says that works save.

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Romans 6 speaks of a Christian who has already trusted the Savior and been born again, put into Christ. It is not about salvation, neither do you verses say save, salvation, or Savior.

Of course disodience leads to sin & death (out of fellowship with Christ). Obedience for the Christian leads to the state which God calls righteous.

Rom 6:17 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

As observed many times, the doctrine delivered to obey is
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
Now when, O SeaBass, will you obey that one and stop trusting the idol of water?

Rom 6:18 "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.:

"Made free" is passive; this is God's work in salvation. After salvation, one becomes a slave of righteousness.

The # of times belief/faith is the only human prerequisite for salvation is enormous. Here are a few:

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

[NO WATER, NO WORKS, but REST]

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have
faith unto the saving of the soul.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

1 John 5:4-5
For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? [& The overcomer is promised never to be blotted out.]

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]