Revelation

[john832]

So true
You should see the ones I delete LOL

My personal take on this "argueing" point is that a person can respond with the word.Let scripture do the talking.

Yep, the only time I ever give something that I don't back up with scripture is when I clearly label it speculation.

But lively debate is good ,I think. It is when folks go personal that it gets counterproductive

You are so correct here. EG and I have had some very lively debates, but it has NEVER degenerated into name calling or accusation. We do respect each other, we just don't agree on certain things.

 

[john832]

Ok,you seem to have an open mind.

Could you honestly post ONE postrib rapture verse or reference alluding to a postrib rapture?

I do not personally know of any.Nothing.

I don't believe in a rapture period but the resurrection occurs at the return of Christ after the tribulation.

 

[john832]

Well,right away the 2 witnesses defeat this assumtion.

But the answer is that ,yes,indeed the ac does kill ALL THE SAINTS left behind after the rapture. (mat 25 about vs 9 or so)

The pertinant question would be "since all saints die(as the word declares),who is left for a SUPPOSED postrib rapture"?

I don't think so. (By the way, I think you might have misspoke on Mat 25:9, did you mean chapter 24?)

 

[popeye]

then matt 24 has no meaning, for there will be no one enduring till the end.

You telling me God will not protect people? Your giving the beast far to much power.

The AC indeed recieves power to kill the saints.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

See that. Postrib doa

 

[john832]

The AC indeed recieves power to kill the saints.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

See that. Postrib doa

Yes but that does not mean or even imply he kills them all.

 

[popeye]

I don't think so. (By the way, I think you might have misspoke on Mat 25:9, did you mean chapter 24?)

Those left behind.
mat 25 reveals not all enter through the rapture. Those left behind enter through martyrdom

 

[Willie-T]

I don't believe in a rapture period but the resurrection occurs at the return of Christ after the tribulation.

I put a <LIKE> on that, but I don't believe in a specifically defined "Tribulation" period.... especially since John identifies himself as already being it such, along with all the people he was writing to.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Cool....Your half way there

Let us examine this.....

vs. 24 70 weeks determined upon Israel to...
a) To finish the transgression<--pay the price for their sin
b) To make an end of sins
c) To make reconciliation for iniquity
d) To bring in everlasting righteousness
e) To seal up the VISION and prophet (prophesy)
f) To anoint the MOST HOLY

Verse 25 FROM the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto MESSIAH the PRINCE shall be 69 WEEKS, the street and wall shall be built again even in troublous times.....

Jesus was identified as the Messiah and the Prince of God (SON) by John the Baptist, and the Heavenly Father at the immersion of JESUS<---Behold the son of God which takes away the sin of the world...this also fits within the scope of verse 24....

From Command to rebuild Jerusalem to Jesus being identified as the messiah is 69 WEEKS of the 70...that leave exactly 7 years left.....

VERSE 26... AFTER three score and two weeks MESSIAH SHALL BE CUT OFF, BUT NOT FOR HIMSELF (crucifixion) 62 weeks is 7 weeks short of the 69 weeks so how do we deal with that......That is 434 years and it is obvious that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ fulfilled b, c and d above....that is where Ezra and Nehemiah come in....there was about 52.5 years between the 1st Command and it's fulfillment in verse 26.....

434 years after rebuilding the TEMPLE Jesus was Crucified when you add 434 years to the 52.5 years between the command to rebuild and the fulfillment in verse 26....

434 + 52.5 = 486.5

490 - 486.5 = 3.5

That is how I come up with the numbers........

The AC gets 3.5 years
The two witnesses witness 3.5 years
The AC wears out the saints, prevails against them and makes war against them for 3.5 years
Daniel testifies there is 1335 days left that deals with the great tribulation which is 75 days longer than the 3.5 years listed above...

if You add 1335 to the 3.5 years you get a period 75 days longer than 7 years.....
Just food for thought....

I see where you are getting your side of things from, but I think you are over complicating it.
In Daniel 9:27 the one who confirms the covenant for the 7 year period is not the Lord, nor is it the Lord who puts an end to the daily sacrifices after the first 3 1/2 years. The 2 witnesses I believe prophecy for the first 3 1/2 years of what those in Christ are getting ready to face in the final 3 1/2 years.
We can clearly see that because the covenant the Lord made we know was not for only 7 years, as we are still under that covenant to this day and will be up to when He comes again. Plus like I said which is common history is that the sacrifices still remained tell 70 A.D. and only stopped because the temple was destroyed by the Romans.

The covenant/treaty will be signed which will include the rebuilding of the temple and return to animal sacrifices, then after 3 1/2 years the man of sin will stand in the temple and claim to be God and put an end to the daily sacrifices that have restarted. From there marks the final 3 1/2 years called the Great Tribulation where the man of sin will persecute and kill the saints and those who profess Jesus name around the world.

 

[popeye]

Yes but that does not mean or even imply he kills them all.

1) postrib erroneously believes they are protected in the gt. 100% wrong
2)All die w/othe mark. Postribs challenge the word for some bizzarre reason and think All means some.
3)all kindreds, and tongues, and nations
And as if that were not enogh;
"all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

"But,but,but we just don't see how pretribs........."

Study the word,believe it.

 

[john832]

1) postrib erroneously believes they are protected in the gt. 100% wrong
2)All die w/othe mark. Postribs challenge the word for some bizzarre reason and think All means some.
3)all kindreds, and tongues, and nations
And as if that were not enogh;
"all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

"But,but,but we just don't see how pretribs........."

Study the word,believe it.

Hmmm, I think this changes both #1 and #2 above...

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

[john832]

Those left behind.
mat 25 reveals not all enter through the rapture. Those left behind enter through martyrdom

Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

I don't see the connection here.

 

[popeye]

If you have the verse....quote it......it is that simple and If I don't have a verse that could enlighten me why would you with hold it....?

The point is,you went to rev 13,found some verses,but OMITTED vs 16.

Now,what I say is true. Postrib is a doctrine of omission. Even when paraphrased you have no desire to investigate.

You really need me to read the chapter to you?

Now you have my paraphrase from memory,the chapter you already quoted from and the very verse that refutes postrib quite handily,but will you read it?
Up to you. I can merely lead you,not force you.

 

[popeye]

Hmmm, I think this changes both #1 and #2 above...

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Yes ,very good. You factored in the Jews being protected. I am referring to the saints,not Old covenant Jews.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Pretrib rapture,hell on earth for the rest. Any questions?

 

[dcontroversal]

It is but there are inset chapters that are out of order.



Absolutely, he says they meet Christ in the first heaven, the atmosphere of the earth where there is air and clouds.



Shows there are still saints on earth praying to God in heaven.



Absolutely.



So am I my friend.

I agree with everything said.......definitely The order of the seals, trumpets, viols (bowls) of wrath are in chronological order with inset chapters that fill in the details and seem to contain both past, present and future context......

 

[john832]

Yes ,very good. You factored in the Jews being protected. I am referring to the saints,not Old covenant Jews.

No these are not the Jews...

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Pretrib rapture,hell on earth for the rest. Any questions?

I don't see it that way at all. Is Matthew 24 only aimed at the Jews?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand what you are saying for sure....this is the math that I get when I take the books mentioned and why I believe that there is but 1335 days left when it all starts...

Daniel 9:2 sets forth there is to be 70 years of Babylonian Captivity and that it was about to be fulfilled..
Verse 24-->God is yet to deal with Israel for another 70 weeks (490 years) 70 times 7
Verse 25-->From command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto the Messiah which is to be 69 weeks (483) years
This was fulfilled at the Baptism and recognition of Jesus by the Father
After the 483 years and Jesus identified as the Messiah by John at Jesus' Baptism

Your three years to early my friend.

Not to mention. the messiah gets cut off after the 69th week. in the hebrew it has the sens of immediately after. not 3 years after.

secondly, Messiah the prince was not to be shown until the end of the 69th week. This happened when he entered jerusalem, just as the OT prophets prophesied.

Until this time, Jesus kept it hid and always charged people did not say, because it was not his time yet.

To understand the (62) weeks of verse 26 you must study Ezra and Nehemiah
There is a period of about 52.5 years between the First Command and the Completion in verse 26
434 years after the rebuilding of the Temple the Messiah shall be cut off (Crucifixion)
The people of the prince that shall come (Titus) destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The 490 years (70 weeks) were put on hold (if you will) after the 486 years which leaves 1290 days left to complete the 490 years

NOTE ABOVE 434+52.5=486.5<-----3.5 years left to wrath when it starts with the opening of the 1st seal! Israel goes by a 360 day year and adds a 13 month every few years to make up the discrepancy between the Jewish and Roman calendars.

I believe the ministry of JESUS lasted just shy of 3.5 years........and when added to the 1335 you get the 7 years to deal with Israel.....they rejected Jesus and therefore will have to endure the last half of the 7 year period....again just my view based upon the math above....

still makes no sense.

even if it was 3.5 years (many believe it was just 3) it does not add up. Scripturally or according to the calendar.

you also have a 7 year agreement which means nothing if this is the case.

 

[dcontroversal]

The point is,you went to rev 13,found some verses,but OMITTED vs 16.

Now,what I say is true. Postrib is a doctrine of omission. Even when paraphrased you have no desire to investigate.

You really need me to read the chapter to you?

Now you have my paraphrase from memory,the chapter you already quoted from and the very verse that refutes postrib quite handily,but will you read it?
Up to you. I can merely lead you,not force you.

I suggest you go back and read as I omitted nothing...the word ALL is applied unto those who take the mark and is not indicative of the saints......

 

[popeye]

Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

I don't see the connection here.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


1) son of man cometh
2) about 1/2 of believers go with him and continue up,up,up. The rest stay for the ac and his big party.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do believe He who restrains is the Holy Spirit, but it can not be the church also because the church is never given the masculine term. The church is always listed as in the feminine term, so "he" that restrains can not be the church.

It can be, if it is the HS who is indwelt in the church.

If the church is taken out. then so is the HS, who indwells every believer

 

[john832]

Yes ,very good. You factored in the Jews being protected. I am referring to the saints,not Old covenant Jews.


Pretrib rapture,hell on earth for the rest. Any questions?

Rev 2 & 3 are church eras. Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea overlap. There are some of Sardis and Philadelphia at the time of the Tribulation/Day of the Lord. All of Laodicea.