People think you have to keep grace on a leash

Jason0047 · Apr 9, 2015

Yes, it is wrong. But you can't see it. You can't help yourself. Why? The Scriptures talk about this quite a bit. Watch the videos I posted from, "How to Stop Sinning Ministries" and you will know why. He will give you some verses on that.

dcontroversal · Apr 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Your out of your mind if you think it is wrong to call people on their false doctrine......serious...and you are blind to the fact that when you call me out in a post for slander while slandering me you are the one in sin! I suggest you wake up and smell the truth......

Jason0047 · Apr 9, 2015

BradC said:

Jason, you are so hung up on an interpretation about having sins forgiven and cleansed by the blood after we have been saved. This has lead you to believe against OSAS and any claim that all sin has been forgiven (past, present and future) when we trust in the gospel and believe upon the Son. When we believe upon the work of the cross we have to agree with God that Christ came and was crucified to take and put away our sins and the sin of the world (John 1:29, Gal 1:4, 1 Jn 2:2, Heb 9:26). He accomplished this as a 'finished work' on the cross through the shedding of his own blood as the propitiation (or mercy seat) for our sins (Rom 3:25, 1 John 4:10). So far you agree with that, right?

According to (2 Cor 5:19-20) God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself according to (Isaiah 53:1-11), not imputing their trespasses unto them... for this reason... all trespasses and sins, which are dead works (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13, Heb 6:1, 9:14), were transferred to the Christ's body on the tree (1 Pt 2:24 - cross). His soul was made an offering for sin and He bore all our iniquities. All sin, all iniquity, all transgressions and all trespasses had to be dealt with for all men, past, present and future, in all the world. No man and no sin could be left out for all had sinned and come short (Rom 3:23, 5:12). For Christ to bear sin for all men, it also had to be for all sin. To leave out a single sin, iniquity, trespass or transgression would make his sacrifice incomplete and he would have to be crucified over and over again for those not covered by the blood of the cross.

Jason, your problem is with any future sins committed by the believer after salvation and how should the believer look at and deal with those sins. Every believer who has been saved by grace through faith must walk in the same manner (Col 2:6). If Jesus took away the sins of the world as the lamb of God, and he did, then we must agree with that work of the cross and the shed blood that goes with it, because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Heb 9:22, Acts 10:43). Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin (Heb 10:18) and we are sanctified by that offering ONCE (Heb 10:10). When this man (Jesus) had offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOREVER, he sat down at the right hand of God (Heb 10:12) and by that ONE offering perfected forever them that are sanctified (Heb 10:15) which the Holy Spirit is a witness (Heb 10:16). A done deed!

Now we can go to (1 John) and see what is being said about dealing with sin, if we sin. In (verse 4) these things are written that our joy may be full as a believer. Our fellowship with the Son and with one another is according to the light that we walk in. The light we have is the understanding that Christ bore our sins and remitted those sins through his shed blood. If we say (we may or may not) that we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not walk in the truth (1 John 1:6). This verse is troublesome because some think it refers to a saved person who has stopped walking in the light because of sin, while others think is refers to an unsaved person, who has never had the light to walk in. To get the full thought of what John is saying we have to include the remaining verses from 7-10.

John says, there are those who are saying they have fellowship but they walk in darkness, when fellowship is constituted by walking in the light. So those who are not walking in the light are not having fellowship as they assume, they lie and do not walk in the truth. These who profess to have fellowship, yet walk in darkness, how will they ever have fellowship in the light? How is that going to happen? The darkness they walk in is skotos - a darkness resulting from blindness. It could refer to those who live in unbelief and are blinded by the god of this world lest the light of the glorious gospel shine unto them (2 Cor 4:4). It could refer to those who are blind not able to see afar off (2 Peter 1:9), who lack and are unfruitful in the knowledge of God and even forget that they they WERE PURGED from their old sins.

Those who walk in the light have fellowship with God and with one another who are in Christ. The blood of Christ is active and continually cleansing that believer of sins of omission, ignorance and those things they know nothing about because they have not grown in grace and knowledge enough to have the conviction to know those things. That is nothing new (babes in Christ). This would also include sins that one has never been engaged, partaken of or given place to, that could come up later in life. Those sins that we are being cleansed of, as we walk in the light, have to do with sins that have the potential to defile us that come from out of the heart (Matt 5:18,19). So God is using the word to penetrate and divide the soul and spirit to get into the thoughts and intents of the heart (Heb 4:12,13, 1 Cor 4:5) to deal with these issues of life (Prov 4:23) utilizing the blood to cleanse us from all sin and unrighteousness, the potential for corruption (Gal 6:8, 2 Pt 1:4, 2:12).

We can't say we have not sinned, for we would decieve ourselves in that, for that is not the truth that needs to operate in us, but we acknowledge our sin, by making a confession according to the conviction of the Spirit. This is how we begin to be restored in our fellowship of walking in the light and the blood now can once again be active and cleanse us from any and all unrighteousness that we have, whether by commission or omission or in the heart. This begins and takes place immediately when we believe in our hearts unto the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ and this is what (1 John 1:7 addresses). It continues to be active in the believer's life when he walks in the light and is being continually cleansed by the application of the blood and by the word of God's promises (Eph 5:26) to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Pt 1:4).

Salvation is being worked out and is never lost during this process of growing and being converted that we might have our hearts established in grace and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience (Heb 10:22) and yes, we can be saved by the blood of Christ and have sin active in our life, but not without the conviction of the Spirit coming into play, that we might be restored in our fellowship of walking in the light.

No, 1 John 1:9 is not about a believer reflecting back at them confessing their sin in the beginning (If that is what you are getting at). How do we know? Well, there is no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were actually added later. In 1 John 2:1, John tells the believer to sin not. This is to believers who obviously been believers for a while. Then John says, but if we do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ. Seeing 1 John 1:9 proceeded just two verses prior, 1 John 2:1 is in view of it They are tied together and are not separate thoughts. Confessing sin and going to your advocate Jesus Christ when one does sin (When one is told not to sin) is what is in view.

MarcR · Apr 9, 2015

3Scoreand10 said:

I agree completely; but it is still necessary to answer him for the sake of new believers and those who are undiscipled.

Jason0047 · Apr 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

The cross reference passage that confirms this truth that we are be humble before God and cry out to Him to have mercy on us thru out our life can be seen in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, too.

Jason0047 · Apr 9, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Perhaps it be more wise if you focused on the actual topic with some Scripture instead of trying to slander me for a change. That is what I am getting at. You are not really being loving, productive and or on topic.

So with keeping with the topic: What kind of sins can grace cover and not cover according to the Bible?
How does one administer grace personally for themselves according to the Bible?

Jason0047 · Apr 9, 2015

MarcR said:

You honestly think someone who is pure of heart and who seeks to do the righteousness of Christ is going to side with bullies? Okay.

Anyways, getting back to the topic: I would l like to know what you think 1 John 1:9 says. Why do you think it is not talking about salvation for the seasoned believer?

Does not 1 John 2:1 tie into 1 John 1:9?

If not, then why do you think that?

BradC · Apr 9, 2015

Jason, I gave you lots of scripture in my last post and you have not responded as of yet. Take your time, no pressure.

psychomom · Apr 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

you needn't bother responding to this, but i have to say

The Gospel!

for those in Christ, God's amazing grace IS greater than all our sin!
no one 'personally administrates' God's grace. it's a gift.
it's wild, and scandalous, and it always seems to us to be given to the wrong people.

God's love and grace for His own is untameable and free and beautiful!

He bestows it on the broken and sick and desperate....those who know there's no other recourse.

the Gospel is God in Christ doing a Work of reconciliation!
you can't earn it and you don't deserve it.

our only response to this kind of love is heartfelt gratitude and
'what would You like me to do, Mighty Lord?'

i'm gonna go dance a little, now.

all hail King Jesus! ♥

peacefulbeliever · Apr 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I would agree with this (Such as the example with the Lord's prayer as we talked about before). However, I also believe some type of sorrow has to be expressed to God before one dies if they sin shortly before they die in order to be right with Him, though.

Thank you for clarifying that. Yes, I have taught this same thing on this passage before. I merely forgot to mention it. So I appreciate you bringing it up. For I agree that in context of the sin that does NOT lead unto death is confessed sin that a believer is struggling to overcome. However, I also believe Psalm 19:12 that talks about hidden or secret faults fall under the umbrella of sins that do not lead unto death (Even though they are not in view or context to 1 John 5:16-18). For obviously if a brother drinks soberly in public and makes another brother to stumble without them realizing it, then how can they be at fault? So such a thing is also a sin that does NOT lead unto death.

Well, I really don't think that a person can hide anything from God . . . they, themselves, may not realize something as a sin and to them it is hidden or secret - but God knows it. Just saying . . . .

MarcR · Apr 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

First I wasn't calling you a bully. I think you are very sincere, very hard to persuade, and often wrong in spite of your sincerity.

I think 1 Jn 1:5-2:11
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
KJV

is one continuous line of thought.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. I think that the contrast between light and darkness here refers to a Spiritual vs a worldly focus in both thoughts and actions.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

and walk in darkness I believe this speaks of persistently and habitually following worldly rather than Spiritual values.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I f we adopt Scriptural values, and persistently, and habitually act on them (this is a natural result of the Holy Spirit's indwelling)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we confess our sins, means if we persistently and habitually confess (present active subjunctive)

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Even believers with a lifestyle of obedience will on occasion stumble into sin.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

that ye sin not that you do not sin occasionally [aorist active subjunctive]

And if any man sin, and if any man sin occasionally (and you can expect that he will) [third class condition]

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And he is the propitiation for our sins He is the covering for our sins (he removes them from God's sight)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

if we keep if we persistently and habitually keep [present active subjunctive] (this is an indication of fhe Holy Spirit's indwelling)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

and keepeth not and does not persistently and habitually keep [present active subjunctive]

Jason0047 · Apr 9, 2015

BradC said:

And I replied with Scripture using the context on the point of understanding 1 John 1:9 to keep things simple.

Jason0047 · Apr 9, 2015

MarcR said:

Thank you for using kind words. It is appreciated.

I think 1 Jn 1:5-2:11
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
KJV

is one continuous line of thought.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. I think that the contrast between light and darkness here refers to a Spiritual vs a worldly focus in both thoughts and actions.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

and walk in darkness I believe this speaks of persistently and habitually following worldly rather than Spiritual values.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I f we adopt Scriptural values, and persistently, and habitually act on them (this is a natural result of the Holy Spirit's indwelling)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we confess our sins, means if we persistently and habitually confess (present active subjunctive)

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Even believers with a lifestyle of obedience will on occasion stumble into sin.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

that ye sin not that you do not sin occasionally [aorist active subjunctive]

And if any man sin, and if any man sin occasionally (and you can expect that he will) [third class condition]

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And he is the propitiation for our sins He is the covering for our sins (he removes them from God's sight)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

if we keep if we persistently and habitually keep [present active subjunctive] (this is an indication of fhe Holy Spirit's indwelling)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

and keepeth not and does not persistently and habitually keep [present active subjunctive]

Not sure how these verses and or the bolded words actually helps to prove your case in the fact that it is not talking about salvation or forgiveness of sin. Yes, it is also talking about fellowship. John here is making a connection to yielding to God, being humble before Him, obeying Him whereby we have light and forgiveness of sin (In our walk with Him). 1 John 5:12 says, he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Having a relationship with Jesus Christ is life. There is no life outside of Jesus Christ. One cannot be out fellowship with God and have life or salvation. If one abides in Christ, then fruit will result in one keeping the teachings of Jesus Christ under the New Testament. Having Christ, obeying Him, knowing Him, and salvation are all tied together. For none of these words change what is in 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1. These verses tied together still talk about confessing sin so as to be forgiven of sin.

Jason0047 · Apr 9, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

Psalm 19:12 is in context of not knowing one's errors.

Psalm 19:12
"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."

GracethroughfaithinChrist · Apr 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Not a lot of gray area there bro.......

MultilingualMessenger · Apr 9, 2015

GracethroughfaithinChrist said:

Oh crap, here we go again...

GracethroughfaithinChrist · Apr 9, 2015

MultilingualMessenger said:

oops should i edit that?

Heck,.......Jason knows we are all brothers and sisters here...... i hope

MultilingualMessenger · Apr 9, 2015

GracethroughfaithinChrist said:

Then those of us who've been watching and eating popcorn all this time might get bored. Leave it as is!

GracethroughfaithinChrist · Apr 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

So according to you we can loose our salvation Jason? how would you define saved just out of curiosity? Also if i see you walking your dog out by Erie i'd say what's up bro and not to offend you either. Us Ohioans say that all the time, so don't take it wrong and let's reason together. i'm not your enemy Jason and you know that.......

Jason0047 · Apr 9, 2015

GracethroughfaithinChrist said:

I used to live in Ohio most of my life. I used to even visit Lake Erie, too. I realize there are certain people who use that word as a part of their culture. But if somebody was upset with you or criticized you and said the word "bro", then it is insulting. To some it is just an after dinner mint word. I get that. But to others.... it is used as a sign of showing disrespect torwards others.

Also, I don't think Christians should swear, either.

People think you have to keep grace on a leash

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