If God elects people, how can He rightly punish the non-elect?

[Elin]

Yep. All are sinners.

Thus if God does not offer salvation to all. he is not the God of love he claims to be.

But that's your rule. . .and we don't get to make the rules for God.

God is also a God of justice.

 

[valiant]

Really you are going to believe the Holy Spirit, GREAT !!!!


Here is what the Holy Spirit says about falling away that Calvin and Augustine disagree with;

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


The Holy Spirit says some will depart from the faith (fall away) so I will go with Him on this!!!

quite true. many nominal Christians will desert Christianity because of the pressures of persecution and false teaching. I will go with Him on it too. Make sure you are not one of them. But it will not happen to those who are guarded by their Saviour and Shepherd/They will overcome and prevail.

 

[Gr8grace]

So you don't need to repent from your sins JUST DEEDS?

Let me ask you a question what is sin?

No we don't repent of our sins. We repent of our unbelief in Christ. We just recognize that we are a sinner.

What is sin?

Arrogance Gossiping Murder
Fear Lying Stealing
Worry Blasphemy Disobedience
Anger Perjury Violence
Guilt Maligning Adultery
Bitterness Boasting Rape
Hate Criticism Incest
Revenge Ridiculing Bestiality
Implacability Sarcasm Homosexuality
Jealousy Cursing Pederasty
Approbation Lust Interrupting Voyeurism
Power Lust Whining Necrophilia
Money Lust Flattery Drunkenness
Insolence Complaining Trespassing
Impatience Arguing Cheating
Prejudice Excuse-Making Cowardice
Self-pity Nagging Snooping
Self-righteousness Mocking Drug Abuse
Envy Bickering Child Abuse
Selfishness Murmuring Extortion
Ingratitude Gloating Treason
Disrespect Revenge
Stubbornness Gluttony
Irresponsibility
Thoughtlessness
Resentment
Aggravation
Frustration
Strife
Discontention
Faithlessness
Deceitfulness
Impoliteness
Religiosity
Vindictiveness
Panic
Irreconcilable difference
Adultery Mt 5:28
Judging Mt 7:1,2
Irritability

 

[Elin]

Calvin's doctrine derived from the false doctrine taught by Augustine who said by his eternal security doctrine that falling away and apostasy is impossible. Calvin's is just an adaptation of these falsehoods that the bible clearly teaches on both.

Those who claim falling away from the faith is impossible are debating with the word of God, for the Holy Spirit Himself said that it will and does happen.........Augustine and Calvin say no - The Holy Spirit says yes;

Who are you going to believe the Holy Spirit or a man ???

I'm gonna' believe the NT which teaches eternal security of the born again.

 

[CS1]

Election is not selection

 

[Elin]

I thought Paul already answered this question...

Romans 9:18-21 (KJV)
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?

Romans 9:18-21

Couldn't be any plainer. . .the problem is not the unclarity of it, the problem is the unbelief of it.

 

[KennethC]

quite true. many nominal Christians will desert Christianity because of the pressures of persecution and false teaching. I will go with Him on it too. Make sure you are not one of them. But it will not happen to those who are guarded by their Saviour and Shepherd/They will overcome and prevail.

The Word of God says we overcome by walking in the Spirit !!!

Those who do not have those fruits of the Spirit in their life Jesus says will be cut off and burned (John 15:2), and Apostle Peter says those who do not add those fruits to their faith are shortsighted and blind and forget only past sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:5-9), and the Apostle John says they do not have eternal life abiding in them (1 John 2-4).

The bible makes it clear that only by those fruits that come from the guidance of the Holy Spirit do we overcome and have victory over sin, and never stumble to the point of falling away from the faith. Because when we do stumble we will confess and repent of those sins. Once again my stance on eternal security and osas is not true based on the teachings of Calvin and Augustine still stands, because both of them place that on all people and state the falling away is impossible in which the bible completely refutes their teachings.......

 

[thecreationtutor]

This makes absolutely no sense and is unbiblical !!!

Unbelievers do not have remission for their sins, for they have never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and repented of their sins and thus been baptized into Christ.

The only way to receive remission is by accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior, and trusting in what He said to receive that remission and continue to receive it by walking in the Light/Spirit......

1 John 1:7, Galatians 5:4, Colossians 1:22-23 all three show this standard, as the bible nowhere teaches all sins including future have been already forgiven and covered by His blood, or by a one time repentance. That teaching was started by man and not biblically supported !!!

You make salvation sound like it's based on man's ability to keep himself saved rather than a Seal of Salvation - The Holy Spirit - does God break that seal? John 6:27Eph 4:30, Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22, 2 cor 5:5 -

As you have received the Lord, so walk in him - salvation is not your work, and it doesn't become your work later down in the road of life

 

[phil36]

No we don't repent of our sins. We repent of our unbelief in Christ. We just recognize that we are a sinner.

What is sin?

Arrogance Gossiping Murder
Fear Lying Stealing
Worry Blasphemy Disobedience
Anger Perjury Violence
Guilt Maligning Adultery
Bitterness Boasting Rape
Hate Criticism Incest
Revenge Ridiculing Bestiality
Implacability Sarcasm Homosexuality
Jealousy Cursing Pederasty
Approbation Lust Interrupting Voyeurism
Power Lust Whining Necrophilia
Money Lust Flattery Drunkenness
Insolence Complaining Trespassing
Impatience Arguing Cheating
Prejudice Excuse-Making Cowardice
Self-pity Nagging Snooping
Self-righteousness Mocking Drug Abuse
Envy Bickering Child Abuse
Selfishness Murmuring Extortion
Ingratitude Gloating Treason
Disrespect Revenge
Stubbornness Gluttony
Irresponsibility
Thoughtlessness
Resentment
Aggravation
Frustration
Strife
Discontention
Faithlessness
Deceitfulness
Impoliteness
Religiosity
Vindictiveness
Panic
Irreconcilable difference
Adultery Mt 5:28
Judging Mt 7:1,2
Irritability

Your barking up the wrong tree... heres just 2 examples for you... I think i would rather put my trust in what scripture actually says.. for it shows us the great Grace and mercy of God for those who confess their sins.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Gr8grace]

This makes absolutely no sense and is unbiblical !!!

Unbelievers do not have remission for their sins, for they have never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and repented of their sins and thus been baptized into Christ.

The only way to receive remission is by accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior, and trusting in what He said to receive that remission and continue to receive it by walking in the Light/Spirit......

1 John 1:7, Galatians 5:4, Colossians 1:22-23 all three show this standard, as the bible nowhere teaches all sins including future have been already forgiven and covered by His blood, or by a one time repentance. That teaching was started by man and not biblically supported !!!

Ken Just stop and think for a sec. We both believe in freewill. How can we even approach God to believe in His son?

We can because Christ paid the price for our sin on the Cross. If it wasn't paid for, you nor I could approach Him to believe on His Son.

 

[Elin]

2 Cor 5~~14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

The cross worked for all men. That unbeliever who you work with, has all his sins paid for. He just doesn't believe it, nor do you.

The cross was way bigger than just salvation. The cross wiped away ALL sin. So ALL men can approach God..............this is why we don't view men in their depravity, we view men as one whom Christ died for.


This is worthy of study. Not one person goes to the LoF for their sins, sins are all paid for. Evil, that hasn't been paid for. And the evil that hasn't been paid for is the good deeds we do from the flesh.

All sin is evil, but not all evil is sin.

That is a distortion of the NT and is not historical Christian orthodoxy.

 

[Elin]

He is giving his view of himself according to two different standards.

According to one, he is in compliance and faultless.
According to the other, he is not in compliance and powerless without the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Read the context for stating his view of himself when he was a Pharisee to see its relevance.

Elin are you on something?

My chair? . . .

 

[KennethC]

I'm gonna' believe the NT which teaches eternal security of the born again.

That does not answer the question;

A) Holy Spirit, Jesus, and Paul say many will fall away/depart from the faith

B)Calvin and Augustine who started the osas and eternal security doctrines says falling away is impossible


Do you believe A or B ???

 

[Gr8grace]

Your barking up the wrong tree... heres just 2 examples for you... I think i would rather put my trust in what scripture actually says.. for it shows us the great Grace and mercy of God for those who confess their sins.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

He paid for our sins, but he did not put a stop to sin. We still reap what we sow in our personal volition. But we will not be judged for our sin. He paid the Price.

Sin still removes us from fellowship with God. and confessing our sin, is actually giving it back to Him who paid for it. Confession is for the believers benefit......we will live in guilt and fear and worry if we don't confess our sin.

Grieving the Holy Spirit, is when we sin. He is grieving FOR us, not against us.

 

[KennethC]

Ken Just stop and think for a sec. We both believe in freewill. How can we even approach God to believe in His son?

We can because Christ paid the price for our sin on the Cross. If it wasn't paid for, you nor I could approach Him to believe on His Son.

Once again the dept for our sins was paid for by Jesus with His crucifixion on the cross....

We now though have to receive that remission He died to give us and reconcile us to God, and this is done by establishing faith in Him from hearing the word and trusting in doing what He said. Jesus said if you love Him you will keep His commandments and obey all that He taught, and only those who do what He said have the foundation of their faith routed in Him.

The dept was paid for but receiving it is another matter that comes through faith !!!

 

[Elin]

That does not answer the question;

A) Holy Spirit, Jesus, and Paul say many will fall away/depart from the faith

"The faith" means the teachings of the faith--doctrine.

Falling away is falling away from a profession of faith.

B)Calvin and Augustine who started the osas and eternal security doctrines says falling away is impossible
Do you believe A or B ???

I believe C--that it was a profession of faith away from which they fell, not true faith (1Jn 2:19).

 

[phil36]

My chair? . . .

Great answer lol

 

[psychomom]

these mashed potatoes are so creamy!

 

[tourist]

these mashed potatoes are so creamy!

My wife has something bubbling on the stove for dinner. Spuds are always a good thing. Had some hash browns this morning.

 

[KennethC]

Faith there means the teachings of the faith--doctrine.

Falling away is falling away from a profession of faith.


I believe C)--that it was a profession of faith away from which they fell, not true faith (1Jn 2:19).

Again you try to worm your way around the question.......

It is not just a profession of faith and not true faith they fell away from, as even Apostle Paul opens up his epistle to the Galatians showing that they once walked in the true gospel of Christ. Not that they just made a profession of faith !!!

Then Paul says because of false teachers leading them back to seek justification by the law they have turned away from the true gospel to a false gospel. Paul says because they did this Christ has no longer become any effect to them, and they have fallen from grace. No remission of sins and not under God's grace means no salvation !!!

The bible has more than 25 scriptures about falling away from God and the faith in the Lord, and states that when this is done there is no salvation/eternal life coming to these individuals. James 5:19-20 is a clear cut scripture for this understanding, as it shows a brethren who wanders away that only if they return to the Lord will their soul be saved from eternal death...