Are We Really Predestined?

[LT]

The issue revolves around "choice" and the "call" and the ability to "choose".

If you hear the call, and ARE HIS SHEEP, then you follow, because you know His voice.

If you hear the call, and are NOT HIS SHEEP, then you do not follow,
even though you may be curious of what the sound was,
you don't stick around, because you don't know Him.

 

[shotgunner]

If I wasn't born with a better freewill, then my experiences instilled a better freewill within me... thus I am a product of my environment, and not in control of my destiny.

What's not logical is thinking you aren't in control of your destiny. If you aren't in control, then God is not just in punishing you.

 

[LT]

What's not logical is thinking you aren't in control of your destiny. If you aren't in control, then God is not just in punishing you.

That was Job's complaint. And God responded "were you there when I made all this stuff?"
Paul also has a response to that accusation "who are you oh man, to talk back to God?"
The Bible's ONLY response to your complaint is: you are just a man, and He is God.

God is fully Soveriegn (in control)
Man is responsible for his sins.
I don't know how these two facts fit, but the Bible makes both extremely clear.
I will be asking God the same question when I get there.

 

[LT]

The issue with freewill, is that it is supposedly a logic based assumption, invented to solve the problem of God seeming to be unjust.
When you can use baseline logic to disprove something, it is not logical.

What I am suggesting is NOT logic
but pure submission to the Word.

I only used logic to show the foolishness of adding to God's Word in order to explain away what you don't like.

Freewill is just what man made up because they didn't like what God's response to Job was. It was adequate for them. They needed more.

 

[shotgunner]

That was Job's complaint. And God responded "were you there when I made all this stuff?"
Paul also has a response to that accusation "who are you oh man, to talk back to God?"
The Bible's ONLY response to your complaint is: you are just a man, and He is God.

God is fully Soveriegn (in control)
Man is responsible for his sins.
I don't know how these two facts fit, but the Bible makes both extremely clear.
I will be asking God the same question when I get there.

Not at all. That speaks to the one being punished railing against God for punishing him. Not at all like my statement but we must speak of these things later as I am going to bed. Good night, I hope all is well with you.

 

[LT]

Not at all. That speaks to the one being punished railing against God for punishing him. Not at all like my statement but we must speak of these things later as I am going to bed. Good night, I hope all is well with you.

It's the same situation. You are asking why God would have the right to punish destined sinners.
The answer in the Bible is: because He's God.

The inverse is dealt with in much more detail in Scripture, in the fact that WE are not in any way able to claim responsibility for our salvation.

The difference is between pride and appreciation.
If man chooses his own destiny, and Heaven is an option (it's actually not an option we can choose), then he has the right to be proud of his decision.

If man can not choose his own destiny (because all men chose hell when they first sinned), then he has no right to be proud when God snatches him from the fire. He can only have appreciation.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Oh dear, I see chests puffed out and testosterone flying all over the place. Why does it matter who is wrong or right as long as we get to the truth? Please remember to speak in love!

 

[LT]

Oh dear, I see chests puffed out and testosterone flying all over the place. Why does it matter who is wrong or right as long as we get to the truth? Please remember to speak in love!

Sorry ma'am.
I'll be quieter.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

First of all the post I responded too of yours does seem to say that ALL men will be saved. You seem to argue for that in your post by the way you wrote it.

Second you have now become accusational in your response too me. You accuse me of me thinking I am wiser than God not once but twice. You then accuse me of reading the Bible thru "rose colored glasses". You accuse me of "following" Calvin or Sproul instead of God's Word. Then you say twice that my "god is the devil".

You have no stupid idea what you are talking about as you again prove you use improper exigesis (you do know what this word means right?) Of Scripture. Finally you say you will not "argue" with me or certain others. That is quite a "cop out" for someone who claims they know Scripture like you do (seen through your posts). If you know Scripture so well then why would you not try to defend it better? A good apologist doesn't say "I won't argue with you anymore" because they feel "threatened". A good apologist would know how to defend God's Word with Biblical truth. A good apologist won't start swinging "insults" like you are doing.

As far as MPW being your "only concern" well that's a pretty good way of saying "I can sway her to my view" and "I don't care about anyone else". Good luck with swaying MPW by the way she has been looking at this for a while and yep she won't just "believe" what you say unless you have 100% proof of your view Biblically. You have not proven anything you have said thus far without picking and choosing and taking Bible verses out of context. MPW might be questioning "predestination" but you are missing one thing in her question...she is much smarter and Biblically grounded than you take her for. She knows much more than she gives herself credit for. In fact I know she understands God's Word much better than you do. So again..good luck "swaying" her to your belief.

I will be there to correct every one of your misinterpretations of God's Word. I will be there to defend God's Word with Biblical truth.

I will end this post on one passage of Scripture and one thought. Rev 13:8 "All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." So the names of those who will be in glory with God were written in the Lambs book "from the foundation of the world". That means before we were even born the names were in the book.

I've got to leave for work shortly, but this won't take long. According to scripture, everybody's name was originally written in God's book of life and some will be blotted out:

"And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." (Exodus 32:30-33)

Again:

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5)

According to the Lord, somebody can have their name blotted out of the book of life. I'll CHOOSE to believe the Lord.

As far as MPW is concerned, she can speak for herself and she has in her OP. I don't underestimate her at all and my impression of her is that she is sincere and that she will embrace the truth, whatever it is. As such, it will be my pleasure to further present my Biblical case to her in the future for her consideration.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Oh dear, I see chests puffed out and testosterone flying all over the place. Why does it matter who is wrong or right as long as we get to the truth? Please remember to speak in love!

LOL no this is funny

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I will be there to correct every one of your misinterpretations of God's Word. I will be there to defend God's Word with Biblical truth.

I will end this post on one passage of Scripture and one thought. Rev 13:8 "All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." So the names of those who will be in glory with God were written in the Lambs book "from the foundation of the world". That means before we were even born the names were in the book.

Correct your own interpretations, friend:

"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." (Psalm 69:28)

Again:

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19)

Those who are lost are those whose names will have been removed from the book of life. If they were originally in God's book and then later removed, how were they allegedly originally "predestined" for damnation?

You don't know what you're talking about, friend. Not even close.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

You have not proven anything you have said thus far without picking and choosing and taking Bible verses out of context.

Please show where I've taken even a single verse out of context as you allege. Thank you.

 

[valiant]

You guys are forgetting something very important. You say that since God influences a man's choice it must be predestination. It certainly is. God predestined what he would do for all who respond by believing in his word. That's why the preaching of the Gospel is necessary. If God picked and chose who would be saved, there would be no need for preaching.

Well at least you come up with an absurdity. If you study the word predestination carefully it refers to God predestinating what His people will become. That does not sound like Him just deciding to save any who believe (to call that predestination is an unscriptural absurdity).

You also make another error. We do not preach and proclaim because we think that somehow we might be able to persuade people by our cleverness to believe. We preach and proclaim because God told us to. Thankfully we can leave the consequence to Him. It is the idea that we can persuade people to believe that led to torture and the inquisition.

God has left His work in our hands because He chose to do so. We know from factual history that whenever He wants He can step outside that plan and directly win people to Himself. Consider many who have been saved by directly seeing the risen Christ with no human being involved. God does not need us. He graciously chooses to let us have a part in His work. But thank God the salvation of men and women does not DEPEND on us. If it did we would be driven mad with anxiety at our failure to achieve His aim. It is only because you (like me) are so sinful that you can hold your view and yet waste your time on here. If you really beli4eved your view you would be evangelising all the time in desperation.

Sometimes it looks like God picks and chooses but that's because he sees the end from the beginning.

LOL He SAYS that He picks and chooses. He calls it in human terms election. Roman 9-11 for example is all about it. Only those chosen by Him are saved. 'Whom the Father gives Me will come to Me, and those who come I will never cast out for any reason whatsoever.

We think of time as being a straight line with a beginning and an end, but there is no beginning or end in God.

That is a philosophical statement for which you have no evidence. if you think that you know how God sees time you are a fool. You and I are in no position to know. For us time is a straight line with a beginning and no ending. That IS time.Anything that is not that is non-time. Stop trying to pretend that you understand time and eternity, because you don't. You have a naive view of time.

He can see the free will choices you have made before you ever even make them, and then treat you as if you had already done what you, in your time, haven't even done yet.

what a naive view of God. It is certainly not a Scriptural one. What you fail to observe is that God foreknows (proginosko) that is enters into a relationship with beforehand, He does not just 'foreknow (prooida.). He does not just foresee, He purposes to bring about.

 

[valiant]

Correct your own interpretations, friend:

"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." (Psalm 69:28)

Nor do you know what you are talking about, friend. 'The book of the living' is the book of those who are PHYSICALLY alive. They are blotted out of it when they die whether they are believers or not. The Old Testament had no real conception of an afterlife.

In those days cities had two books. One was a list of living citizens (the book of the living). The other was the book in which were recorded the names of those who had done important things for the city, the book of 'heroes'. To be written with the righteous is to be in God's book of those who have become 'heroes' (overcomers).

Again:

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19)

Well I guess that condemns all of us on here. With our wild interpretations of the Book of Revelation we all add to and take away from that book. Guess there is no hope for any of us But it is talking about being taken out of the book of the living, not about being taken out of the Lamb's book of life, the book of heroes (overcomers).

Those who are lost are those whose names will have been removed from the book of life. If they were originally in God's book and then later removed, how were they allegedly originally "predestined" for damnation?

No problem To be removed from 'the book of life' is to die. It is not the same book as the Lamb's Book of Life from which names cannot be taken away for they were written there from the beginning.

So they were not in 'God's book'. They were in a book of those living. That did not mean that they had ever been saved. So being removed from it means you have died. It does NOT mean someone has become unsaved. The whole point about the Christian (the overcomer) is that he will NOT be blotted out of the book of life, he will not die but will live..

You don't know what you're talking about, friend. Not even close.

Thus do you speak of yourself, friend

 

[shotgunner]

Well at least you come up with an absurdity. If you study the word predestination carefully it refers to God predestinating what His people will become. That does not sound like Him just deciding to save any who believe (to call that predestination is an unscriptural absurdity).

You also make another error. We do not preach and proclaim because we think that somehow we might be able to persuade people by our cleverness to believe. We preach and proclaim because God told us to. Thankfully we can leave the consequence to Him. It is the idea that we can persuade people to believe that led to torture and the inquisition.

God has left His work in our hands because He chose to do so. We know from factual history that whenever He wants He can step outside that plan and directly win people to Himself. Consider many who have been saved by directly seeing the risen Christ with no human being involved. God does not need us. He graciously chooses to let us have a part in His work. But thank God the salvation of men and women does not DEPEND on us. If it did we would be driven mad with anxiety at our failure to achieve His aim. It is only because you (like me) are so sinful that you can hold your view and yet waste your time on here. If you really beli4eved your view you would be evangelising all the time in desperation.



LOL He SAYS that He picks and chooses. He calls it in human terms election. Roman 9-11 for example is all about it. Only those chosen by Him are saved. 'Whom the Father gives Me will come to Me, and those who come I will never cast out for any reason whatsoever.




That is a philosophical statement for which you have no evidence. if you think that you know how God sees time you are a fool. You and I are in no position to know. For us time is a straight line with a beginning and no ending. That IS time.Anything that is not that is non-time. Stop trying to pretend that you understand time and eternity, because you don't. You have a naive view of time.




what a naive view of God. It is certainly not a Scriptural one. What you fail to observe is that God foreknows (proginosko) that is enters into a relationship with beforehand, He does not just 'foreknow (prooida.). He does not just foresee, He purposes to bring about.

I would reply to all you have said but it seems clear that you are so puffed up with pride and arrogance that it would be a waste of my time.

 

[valiant]

I would reply to all you have said but it seems clear that you are so puffed up with pride and arrogance that it would be a waste of my time.

LOL of course. Nothing to do with having no answers? lol Has it ever struck you that we see YOU as puffed up with pride and arrogance? But I don't suppose it has. Those who are puffed up never recognise themselves LOL

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I would reply to all you have said but it seems clear that you are so puffed up with pride and arrogance that it would be a waste of my time.

Amen to that, but I'll address his latest error when I have more time for the potential sakes of others.

 

[valiant]

Amen to that, but I'll address his latest error when I have more time for the potential sakes of others.

LOL On, on brave Marmion

 

[shotgunner]

LOL of course. Nothing to do with having no answers? lol Has it ever struck you that we see YOU as puffed up with pride and arrogance? But I don't suppose it has. Those who are puffed up never recognise themselves LOL

The difference is that if I you had replied to me like that because of the tone I took in my post, I would have apologized to you. A person isn't arrogant because they disagree with you. I don't mind a difference of opinion. Your words of absurd and naïve in regard to another believer prove who you are. You are in a dangerous position.

 

[elf3]

I proof everything I read or hear against God's Word. So your accusations of me following some one else's teachings blindly are pretty absurd. I take God's Word very serious so I study in depth subject I study. What the Holy Spirit has shown me about "predestination" comes from God's Word not what some one else has said.

As for those who now say "your not worth arguing against" well that is a sign, to me, that you cannot back up your belief through God's Word. You rely upon your own understanding and possibly what some one else has written on the subject. Have you done the same thing you accuse me of? Have you been following the teachings of some one else? I am not accusing, like you did to me, but just questioning your own accusation of me.