The Law Debacle Resolved

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

I have noticed some people believe in simple interactions they have a right to accuse others of lying, of being deceptive, of not walking in the Lord, but have nothing but gut feel. This is what is commonly called slander.

Now I have been in this place myself, until I talked honestly with people about where they were and how they got there.

There is a real problem in this world, people who are truly disfunctional for many reasons, and those who have a reasonable take on life. Into this mix we have the gospel, which offers to take sinners or people who openly admit their failings, and who trust Jesus to being functional right living individuals.

Now I live in the middle of people who have no heart but act as if they live correctly. Attacking me being a witness is this world is not what would be called constructive behaviour. All I can suggest is lingering animosity still resides about being less than able from the past, means any talk about right living is ridiculed. But we are called to live right lives, empowered by Jesus, showing His love. So if christians attack their brothers for living the truth, then they have lost the very treasure they claim to possess, and it is just about making enemies, us and them, nothing more, no matter who the them are.

This is spiritual blindness, claiming one can see, but falling for the same problem they claim others have all along. This is tragic and also poetic.

 

[JaumeJ]

I am glad you ask this question. Even though I have responded many times to it in several other similar threads.

First of all, w are to love God with all of our hear, soul and understanding,.

We are to obey Jesus Christ, and He is to be the example after Which we are to model ourselves..

He has taught us which laws may be omitted, and which laws should be engraved on the tablets of our hearts, although they used to be in stone and on parchment.

We are no longer bound by laws of the Temple; we are the living stones of the Temple which Jesus, the Chief and the Corner Stone will return to build.

The Levitical (priestly) laws, again for there is not longer a temple, and second we are priests to the Most High God, with Jesus the High Priest.

Sacrifice for sin is One, Jesus Christ, and Once, though we are told to offer the sacrifice of thanksgiving, which makes all sense because all we may offer God is Thanks. Everything is His.

Dietary laws by Jesus Christ's teaching are no longer necessary. Nothing by entering the body defiles the body, it is what may proceed from it, for the heart that defiles the body, lying, murders, adulteries, and all evil intents. Peter's vision of the sheet and the unclean animals and his being commanded to eat is another. Also Paul teaches when we are in the house of unbelievers, we may eat whatever is presented before us as long as it is received with thanks given it is blessed. He adds we should not eat blood, nor anything that ha died of itself, nor anything strangled....... I find most of what I have in my diet is considered clean, but this is just happenstance.

There are ordinances and statues which God said He gave to the Children of Israel that are bad and ought not be followed. I believe He did this to show the hardness of the hearts of so many.

The laws on morality ae good to be studied. Some of the laws are mentioned in the sermon on the mount. You have heard it said an eye for an eye, but Jesus says not turn the other cheek. It is also taught it is better to suffer for doing what is right if it is the will of God than for doing what is wrong. Love God but hate your enemy? No, Love God and pray for those who wrong you.

All of the above is taught in the New Testament by Jesus Christ....that is, if you believe all of the NT isinspired by Him, and I do.

WE obey the law naturally by the infilling of the Holy Spirit and the understanding engraved on our inward parts and hearts. This does not preclude the validity of the laws remaining. For instance, do not plant tow types of seed in the same field. What? Yes! The Sower, Jess, the seed, the Gospel, and the filed, the world or this age..

The gift of faith and the Holy Spirit causes us to obey by our new nature, but it does not mean the law is dead which remains, the curse of the law, death, was destroyed on the cross. You and I no longer have to fear the curs eof the law, and we by no means need to run away from the law for the law, as taught by Jesus Christ, is still quite valid. It is filled with God's wisdom.

When we do not do as well as the perfect One, Jesus, we are living in grace because of our faith. We confess our sins, that is our breaking any laws, and our High Priest is the Mediator between us and our Father, as is written.

If the law were not still to be observed as best we can, with no fear of death, there would be no need of our Mediator to speak always on our behalf. Meanwhile we obey, and be perfected by God in us as our way is being finishes in this age.

If the question is not to the satisfaction of all, this is not due to a lack of faith in Jesus Christ.

Hi JamuelJ!

How much effort shall we put into keeping the law?

 

[PeterJens]

The prodigal son viewed by a judgementalist

Both lads were good boys?

Lets see.
The older brother failed to honor his father. Strike 1
The older brother failed to love his brother, strike 2
the older brother was selfish and full of pride Strike 3
(I am sure if we studied deeply we could find more sins the older brother committed. say like he coveted what his brother was getting when he was never offered it) those were just 3 of the commands.

of course I should have known you would say something like this, You people love to excuse your sin.

The older brother worked for his father and appreciated all he had. He wondered why his father was so generous to his younger brother, and when he returned held a feast for him. None of this action was counted by Jesus as sin, rather explanations were given, which were reasonable from both sides.

When we talk of right behaviour, in the judgementalists world even God is not good. Jesus got angry at Peter, he upset the tables in the temple, he did not respect the seat of Moses etc. You can set up your own court and find whoever you like guilty of invented crimes, but it is God and His judgement we are concerned with. It is dangerous to add to his precepts such ideas to prove how sinful we are, when we all know the problem.

Beware judgementalists who claim they live under grace, but rather spend their lives in self condemnation.

 

[Kefa54]

What are you talking about? Scripture please.

You should be concerned, when I meet one such I will warn him. Until then stop reading your accusations into possts all to the contrary, got it? It is judging others as not being in the grace of Jesus Christ by faith, and you do not want to be guilty of this. Now if you keep ignoring this, you may become guilty of sin.

 

[Kefa54]

The Holly Spirit isn't a new concept. The New Testament relation is.



Holman Christian Standard Bible
John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit--the Father will send Him in My name--will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws on their hearts and write them on their minds,

LOL so you believe the Holly Spirit is a NT concept???

What makes me concerned is that people ignore the verse stating we serve a God that does not change...

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If they do not want to see this, they will not.

I didn't read what you were replying to become it was quoted after your response instead of before your response so I first saw your reply and I thought of:
+++

John 9:39-41
king James version(KJV)

39.)And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

​

40.)And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41.)Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth

 

[JaumeJ]

You know I have already posted ti, but for your sake here it is again. Genesis through Revelation inclusive. It is all there.

Keep in mind, without the Hoy Spirit to reveal what is being taught, it will kill, for the written code kills. The veil of Moses is still over the eys of many, even for understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What are you talking about? Scripture please.

 

[JaumeJ]

Someone is ignoring me. I am not ignoring him. The ignore option can only do so much, it cannot censor where I read or respond. God bless you always. You are in my prayers and will remain there. Our Father is to be obeyed, just as we are expected to obey our father in this age.

Don't talk to me; you're on ignore.

 

[ember]

I have made 6 threads. This is for all to see just a glimpse of my concerns and beliefs. Are they against the grace of God and the salvation of Christ Jesus?
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ences-old-testament-scriptures.html?highlight=

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ings-should-causing-us-stumble.html?highlight=

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ma-goda-s-word-not-just-oesome.html?highlight=

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-learned-about-keeping-focused.html?highlight=

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/122296-create-me-clean-heart.html?highlight=

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/121200-departure-oblivion.html?highlight=

Do I need to put a shield up to discuss with you?

I find you are being ambiguous in this thread

That is, you deflect questions with a question...just like you did with me now in your post

See, I think you should just state what you really believe

that's all...I think the rest of us are being pretty clear

 

[blue_ladybug]

LOL so you believe the Holly Spirit is a NT concept???

What makes me concerned is that people ignore the verse stating we serve a God that does not change...

What is the Holly Spirit?

 

[PeterJens]

If the law were not still to be observed as best we can, with no fear of death, there would be no need of our Mediator to speak always on our behalf. Meanwhile we obey, and be perfected by God in us as our way is being finishes in this age.

This language I do not agree with. We do not engrave the law in our hearts, the Holy Spirit has put it into our hearts.
There is not anymore a written law in the way you suggest.

I would say if you start with law in mind you loose the gospel. Jesus brought His nature, His heart, His life. The law is the outward expression of this in a certain context Israel. We now have this heart, and can express it in situations we come into which are very different to Israel. The law as we see it is just one expression of love and justice, there are others.
If you begin to measure yourself by one expression in a different situation you then fail.

A simple example is physical abuse by spouses of the partner. I would regard this as equivalent to adultery, breaking the bond of love that is the foundation of the relationship. Now in our society where family community is often very spread across large distances and communities are not supportive in the same way it used to work, this makes more sense.
It is not though "the law" but exercising love in action.

I see a lot of the principles embedded in the law should be taken in a similar light.
Equally following these principles is the outworking of Gods spirit in our lives and not our justification.

 

[ember]

Just curious. Is there any scripture references that say we are saved by

"grace alone" or

"faith alone?" It has to be somewhere according to all the posts on this thread, but I cannot find a substantial phrase saying that we are "saved by grace alone." We are defiantly saved by grace however.

But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

sorry..but here we have what I am reading between the lines

This:

Just curious. Is there any scripture references that say we are saved by

"grace alone" or

"faith alone?"

so it would seem, Shoshanah, that you are also looking for something more BEYOND what scripture states

your words here indicate that you most definately are in agreement with Ken et all...

so, what part of grace and faith need some engineering on your part?

saying it is the gift of God is fine...but then why ask for scriptures indicating more?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This language I do not agree with. We do not engrave the law in our hearts, the Holy Spirit has put it into our hearts.
There is not anymore a written law in the way you suggest.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, except for the fact that the spirit has not written anything in our hearts. That's all a metaphor pointing to the reality of the spirit itself dwelling in our hearts speaking the words of GOD. It's a living reality; life itself. The law of life's spirit in Christ.

 

[ember]

LOL so you believe the Holly Spirit is a NT concept???

What makes me concerned is that people ignore the verse stating we serve a God that does not change...

God does not change

However, there are major differences in how the Holy Spirit was active before Pentecost

It would be nice to acknowledge them...they define an entirely different walk then the Israelites had

part of the problem that I think I see, is in applying OT scripture to NT scripture and with emphasis on the OT...

There walk was an outward profession...ours, it supposed to be inward and then outward

 

[ember]

It was Sonny and Cer who said it best....."And the Beat Goes On. Ladd da daday, la da da de day."
(Some of you may have to Google this singing couple.)

You spelled her name wrong

no worries...she's famous

how inspiring....

 

[ember]

What is the Holly Spirit?

nitpicker!!

may have something to do with Christmas though

perhaps we should start a thread condemning the observation of that particular day of the (gasp ** pagan) calendar

there may be something to be said for ashes on the head...then people can observe, without you* telling them, how religious you are


* generic you and only offensive to those who are religious


oh just great...now I have that holly jolly Christmas song bumping around in my head, tht Burl Ives sings in some very old children's program that is emplyed every year despite the fact that claymation has progressed so much further

 

[Dan_473]

I am glad you ask this question.

Thanks!

We are no longer bound by laws of the Temple

why do you say that? are we commanded to travel to Jerusalem three times a year?

 

[JaumeJ]

I do not believe I have suggested we engrave anything ourselves. If so I apologize. The Word is clear it is engraved on our hearts by God, Himself. I comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirt. Thanks God bless you.

This language I do not agree with. We do not engrave the law in our hearts, the Holy Spirit has put it into our hearts.
There is not anymore a written law in the way you suggest.

I would say if you start with law in mind you loose the gospel. Jesus brought His nature, His heart, His life. The law is the outward expression of this in a certain context Israel. We now have this heart, and can express it in situations we come into which are very different to Israel. The law as we see it is just one expression of love and justice, there are others.
If you begin to measure yourself by one expression in a different situation you then fail.

A simple example is physical abuse by spouses of the partner. I would regard this as equivalent to adultery, breaking the bond of love that is the foundation of the relationship. Now in our society where family community is often very spread across large distances and communities are not supportive in the same way it used to work, this makes more sense.
It is not though "the law" but exercising love in action.

I see a lot of the principles embedded in the law should be taken in a similar light.
Equally following these principles is the outworking of Gods spirit in our lives and not our justification.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear reader,

I have noticed some people believe in simple interactions they have a right to accuse others of lying, of being deceptive, of not walking in the Lord, but have nothing but gut feel. This is what is commonly called slander.

hmm, You have done quite a but of this yourself. So why are you being a hypocrite?

Now I have been in this place myself, until I talked honestly with people about where they were and how they got there.

There is a real problem in this world, people who are truly disfunctional for many reasons, and those who have a reasonable take on life. Into this mix we have the gospel, which offers to take sinners or people who openly admit their failings, and who trust Jesus to being functional right living individuals.

Now I live in the middle of people who have no heart but act as if they live correctly. Attacking me being a witness is this world is not what would be called constructive behaviour. All I can suggest is lingering animosity still resides about being less than able from the past, means any talk about right living is ridiculed. But we are called to live right lives, empowered by Jesus, showing His love. So if christians attack their brothers for living the truth, then they have lost the very treasure they claim to possess, and it is just about making enemies, us and them, nothing more, no matter who the them are.

This is spiritual blindness, claiming one can see, but falling for the same problem they claim others have all along. This is tragic and also poetic.

The gospel saves people from their sins, What is tragic is people want people to stop sin first. Then be adopted into Christs family, even though no one can break free from sin until AFTER they are adopted as Gods children.

What is tragic, is we have taken sanctification (growth in Christ) and Justification (declaration of innocence) and lumped them together.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The prodigal son viewed by a judgementalist



The older brother worked for his father and appreciated all he had. He wondered why his father was so generous to his younger brother, and when he returned held a feast for him. None of this action was counted by Jesus as sin, rather explanations were given, which were reasonable from both sides.

Oh you people love to excuse your sin.

No wonder you people think your so righteous, you have such a perverted watered down view of what sin is. you will never know how truly sinful you are.

When we talk of right behaviour, in the judgementalists world even God is not good. Jesus got angry at Peter, he upset the tables in the temple, he did not respect the seat of Moses etc. You can set up your own court and find whoever you like guilty of invented crimes, but it is God and His judgement we are concerned with. It is dangerous to add to his precepts such ideas to prove how sinful we are, when we all know the problem.

Beware judgementalists who claim they live under grace, but rather spend their lives in self condemnation.

The law is the guide, The older brother broke multiple commands of the law. Yet you said he did not sin.

Funny, You claim we must obey Gods moral law. yet here we have an example of someone breaking it, And you excusing him. All because it was not murder, or rape or sexual sin..