Homosexuality isn't sin
- Thread starter Ashton
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Indeed, we see this with Sodom and Gomorrah. The men burned with lust. But what I'm talking about is love for one another playing itself out in a wholesome way - not simply burning for lust as one man burns with lust for a woman and rapes her, commits adultery or fornication for sheer pleasure. Certainly this does not conform to the Law of Love. But the selfless love a long-time homosexual couple has for each other does not violate this Law of Love, does it? Are you saying we are to obey Christ's Law of Love as well as another law which denies love in homosexual couples? That would be a paradox, wouldn't it? What is this other law we are to obey? And how many different laws are there? The old law, the moral law, the Law of Love? And which commands fall into which laws?
I'd like it if you thought about my underlined question and gave me a reasonable answer from the Scriptures. Otherwise I won't be able to see any point in addressing any more of your objections to homosexuality. But also feel free to tackle some of my others. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you to the truth, brother.
I'd like it if you thought about my underlined question and gave me a reasonable answer from the Scriptures. Otherwise I won't be able to see any point in addressing any more of your objections to homosexuality. But also feel free to tackle some of my others. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you to the truth, brother.
Indeed, we see this with Sodom and Gomorrah. The men burned with lust. But what I'm talking about is love for one another playing itself out in a wholesome way - not simply burning for lust as one man burns with lust for a woman and rapes her, commits adultery or fornication for sheer pleasure. Certainly this does not conform to the Law of Love. But the selfless love a long-time homosexual couple has for each other does not violate this Law of Love, does it? Are you saying we are to obey Christ's Law of Love as well as another law which denies love in homosexual couples? That would be a paradox, wouldn't it? What is this other law we are to obey? And how many different laws are there? The old law, the moral law, the Law of Love? And which commands fall into which laws?
I'd like it if you thought about my underlined question and gave me a reasonable answer from the Scriptures. Otherwise I won't be able to see any point in addressing any more of your objections to homosexuality. But also feel free to tackle some of my others. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you to the truth, brother.
I'd like it if you thought about my underlined question and gave me a reasonable answer from the Scriptures. Otherwise I won't be able to see any point in addressing any more of your objections to homosexuality. But also feel free to tackle some of my others. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you to the truth, brother.
You see, if this love they have for each other causes them to sin, Jesus says to cast it away. If they loved God more than theirselves then they should love that person as God provides them too, as a brother and not a mate.
The flesh loves alot of things that God hates, a born again believer is imparted with God's Spirit to love that which God loves. God gave man woman, and woman man. God did not give man man.
God plainly describes that kind of love between two men unnatural. That it was not His intention, not HIS WILL for two men to love each other like that.
Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
This verse implies imitating the Father. Many verses say, love what is good, hate what is evil. Now if God calls it evil for a man to burn with lust for another man, then we should not do it. We can also say that God does not condone it, no matter how long they have been together.
1cor 7: 1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:
It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
God has a given way that people can share sexual desire and this kind of attraction/love. It is His way though, we are also not permitted to love a married woman like that. It is not meant by God.
If this doesn't seem fair to you, this is a command of Jesus.
Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Here is a law to follow.
Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
or...
John 12: 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
So we can call it the Law of forsaking your life and all its desire's(notice in Luke that can even include things which aren't against the Law) and following God Law, which followed has its reward in heaven.
H
Love isn't necessary for a relationship to survive. My parents hate each other and have been married going on almost 16 years now. Sustainability in marriage and relationships does not equal love.
And Ashton, I think you've closed your eyes to the Scripture you've been given There are several instances in the new testament talking about how fornication, adultery, whoremongering, catamites, and homosexual acts are against nature, perversions, and against God's will. Seeing the Biblical definition of love, which does not delight in evil, it can not be Biblical love between homosexuals. The act of sex between same genders is an offense against their bodies, against the nature God made us in, and against God's will. It is evil, it is wrong, it is unnatural. Can a man love another man? Most certaintly. Can a man enjoy the company of another man for years and years in a strong relationship, definately. Can a man and anther man have sex with one another simply because of the love they share and have it be okay by God...no. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. He made our anatomy to compliment each other, and he made man and woman for each other. Old law, or New law, homosexuality is stil considered a sexual sin.
Romantic love is not sexual love which is not brotherly love which is not material love which is not Godly love. Not all love is the same, not all love is equal. Just because you have feelings for someone, does not mean it's acceptable to have sex with them. It's the act of homosexuality that God deems wicked. A homosexual is not destined for hell because of his urges, but because he acts on his urges. In engaging in homosexuality, he leads another man into sin, which is not love for your neighbor, becomes a fornicator and sins agains his own body, which is not love for yourself, and peforms acts that are against God's will, which is not loving God with your whole heart and soul.
And Ashton, I think you've closed your eyes to the Scripture you've been given There are several instances in the new testament talking about how fornication, adultery, whoremongering, catamites, and homosexual acts are against nature, perversions, and against God's will. Seeing the Biblical definition of love, which does not delight in evil, it can not be Biblical love between homosexuals. The act of sex between same genders is an offense against their bodies, against the nature God made us in, and against God's will. It is evil, it is wrong, it is unnatural. Can a man love another man? Most certaintly. Can a man enjoy the company of another man for years and years in a strong relationship, definately. Can a man and anther man have sex with one another simply because of the love they share and have it be okay by God...no. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. He made our anatomy to compliment each other, and he made man and woman for each other. Old law, or New law, homosexuality is stil considered a sexual sin.
Romantic love is not sexual love which is not brotherly love which is not material love which is not Godly love. Not all love is the same, not all love is equal. Just because you have feelings for someone, does not mean it's acceptable to have sex with them. It's the act of homosexuality that God deems wicked. A homosexual is not destined for hell because of his urges, but because he acts on his urges. In engaging in homosexuality, he leads another man into sin, which is not love for your neighbor, becomes a fornicator and sins agains his own body, which is not love for yourself, and peforms acts that are against God's will, which is not loving God with your whole heart and soul.
Well, I'd like to make one more post before I head off to bed here. I believe that homosexuality is a sinful nature and that homosexual acts are sin. There. I said it. I've been playing the devil's advocate all along to explore the validity of the notion that God's 613 laws as found in the Torah do not apply to us today (Yes, I am one of those "Pharisees" and "legalists" I was calling you folks, because I believe in following God). Many of you have made some great arguments.
Personally, I think Harley_Angel made the best argument with the point that the Law of Love was referring to agape or phileo instead of eros. I was secretly cheering for you! DinoDillinger also deserves honorable mention. I still believe that homosexual men in a relationship with each other are capable of loving each other with a love that is as selfless as any love can get. However, I still do not believe this relationship to be condoned by God or by Scripture. Their love may be respectable, but it unfortunately leads to sodomy - which is a sin according to the Old Testament. I'd also like to point out at this time that sacrifices were also commanded by God before the apparent forming of the Torah. Consider Cain and Abel. Also, God made a sacrifice himself.
I must ask you to forgive me for the ruse I put on, but I'd like you to consider what I was doing. I was debating using the same reason some of you had - that the old laws are not applicable for us today. So those of you who were arguing weren't really arguing with me; you were arguing with yourselves.
To be honest with you I've spent some time debating with another man from a different site on the matter, and the position I put forth in this thread (as well as the same condescending, Spirit-led, enlightened attitude) was pretty much the same position he took. He couldn't back up any of his claims from the Scriptures, but somehow he still claimed to be Spirit-led because he had faith that God wouldn't lead him to conclude anything other than the truth because he was a Christian. And I don't think that God leads us to a lie. But if we refuse to let God lead with his Scriptures, then how are we going to arrive at the truth? Furthermore, would the Holy Spirit lead us down a path that didn't arrive at the Scriptures? So therefore let us examine the Scriptures and not our feelings.
Do you know why homosexual conduct is a sin? God commanded us to abstain from it in his Torah, and we are still to love God by obeying his Torah today. Why? Because the Torah is based on love. After all, it is said the Law (Torah) and all the prophets hang on love. If you took love out of the equation the Torah would collapse and be meaningless. And the Pharisees did just that. They took love out of the Sabbath day of rest, turned it into a bunch of regulations and no one could ever rest on that day again. They were so obsessed with the letter of the law that they failed to see its true intention.
The truth is that all of Paul's teachings on the law/Law can be summed up in this: we are to obey the letter of Torah within the parameters of love, because love of God and love of Man is the driving force behind it. I hope to examine some of the passages of Scripture that we all have concerns with, but I must do it later.
Again, I am sorry for putting some of you through patronizing exasperation. But I'm pretty sure my reputation was the only one on the line. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We should treat each other like it. Thanks for not biting back... too hard.
Sweet dreams.
Personally, I think Harley_Angel made the best argument with the point that the Law of Love was referring to agape or phileo instead of eros. I was secretly cheering for you! DinoDillinger also deserves honorable mention.
I still believe that homosexual men in a relationship with each other are capable of loving each other with a love that is as selfless as any love can get. However, I still do not believe this relationship to be condoned by God or by Scripture. Their love may be respectable, but it unfortunately leads to sodomy - which is a sin according to the Old Testament. I'd also like to point out at this time that sacrifices were also commanded by God before the apparent forming of the Torah. Consider Cain and Abel. Also, God made a sacrifice himself.I must ask you to forgive me for the ruse I put on, but I'd like you to consider what I was doing. I was debating using the same reason some of you had - that the old laws are not applicable for us today. So those of you who were arguing weren't really arguing with me; you were arguing with yourselves.
To be honest with you I've spent some time debating with another man from a different site on the matter, and the position I put forth in this thread (as well as the same condescending, Spirit-led, enlightened attitude) was pretty much the same position he took. He couldn't back up any of his claims from the Scriptures, but somehow he still claimed to be Spirit-led because he had faith that God wouldn't lead him to conclude anything other than the truth because he was a Christian. And I don't think that God leads us to a lie. But if we refuse to let God lead with his Scriptures, then how are we going to arrive at the truth? Furthermore, would the Holy Spirit lead us down a path that didn't arrive at the Scriptures? So therefore let us examine the Scriptures and not our feelings.
Do you know why homosexual conduct is a sin? God commanded us to abstain from it in his Torah, and we are still to love God by obeying his Torah today. Why? Because the Torah is based on love. After all, it is said the Law (Torah) and all the prophets hang on love. If you took love out of the equation the Torah would collapse and be meaningless. And the Pharisees did just that. They took love out of the Sabbath day of rest, turned it into a bunch of regulations and no one could ever rest on that day again. They were so obsessed with the letter of the law that they failed to see its true intention.
The truth is that all of Paul's teachings on the law/Law can be summed up in this: we are to obey the letter of Torah within the parameters of love, because love of God and love of Man is the driving force behind it. I hope to examine some of the passages of Scripture that we all have concerns with, but I must do it later.
Again, I am sorry for putting some of you through patronizing exasperation.
But I'm pretty sure my reputation was the only one on the line. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We should treat each other like it. Thanks for not biting back... too hard. Sweet dreams.
I'm not sure what Bible you are reading Ashton, but it's certainly not the same Bible that I read.
John 7:
24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
1 Corinthians 5
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within
Jesus also said:
Matthew 5:17-20
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Quest
John 7:
24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
1 Corinthians 5
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within
Jesus also said:
Matthew 5:17-20
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Quest
Well, I'd like to make one more post before I head off to bed here. I believe that homosexuality is a sinful nature and that homosexual acts are sin. There. I said it. I've been playing the devil's advocate all along to explore the validity of the notion that God's 613 laws as found in the Torah do not apply to us today (Yes, I am one of those "Pharisees" and "legalists" I was calling you folks, because I believe in following God). Many of you have made some great arguments.
Personally, I think Harley_Angel made the best argument with the point that the Law of Love was referring to agape or phileo instead of eros. I was secretly cheering for you! DinoDillinger also deserves honorable mention.
Personally, I think Harley_Angel made the best argument with the point that the Law of Love was referring to agape or phileo instead of eros. I was secretly cheering for you! DinoDillinger also deserves honorable mention.
Quest
PS: Next time we have a debate like this, could someone PM me? Thanx!
[
not a paradox Christ's law of love is not about sex, when Christ said that the commandments was to Love God then love another, He is not saying have sex with God then go out and have sex with one another, how twisted can you get????????? what is this other law that stops heterosexuals or homosexuals from having sex with one another or even stops them from making love with one another is the Law of no fornication : a Voluntary sexual intercourse between unmarried couples.
I'd like it if you thought about my underlined question and gave me a reasonable answer from the Scriptures. Otherwise I won't be able to see any point in addressing any more of your objections to homosexuality. But also feel free to tackle some of my others. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you to the truth, brother.
I'd like it if you thought about my underlined question and gave me a reasonable answer from the Scriptures. Otherwise I won't be able to see any point in addressing any more of your objections to homosexuality. But also feel free to tackle some of my others. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you to the truth, brother.
Ok here is your verse and No it would not even be right for homosexuals if they lived in a state that reconizes marriages within homosexual couples, for that would promote them to be abuser of themselves with Mankind
1co 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,1co 6:10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
no paradox . Just bible, man and woman are to love one another and multiply but not before marriage, so it is a double sin for a homosexual couple to have sex outside marriage, why not quit trying to find ways of fulfilling the lust of the flesh, and just submit to God and walk in the spirit, this will give you a greater joy, a greater fulfillment than sex with a man or a woman can given begin to.
M
Because two men or two women cannot multiply and fill the earth which is what they were created for, what reproductive organs were created for, why woman was created, to be helper for man. But now they can have babies due to medical science, but that still doesn't trump the original purpose of the relationship between a man and a woman.
And if the old law doesn't apply anymore, that means murder is legal, abortion is legal, sacrificing lambs and bulls is still legal since Jesus didn't command us to not do any other those either.
MattRR
And if the old law doesn't apply anymore, that means murder is legal, abortion is legal, sacrificing lambs and bulls is still legal since Jesus didn't command us to not do any other those either.
MattRR
M
I completely agree with you that same sex relationships are not an act of GOD. I think that ppl try to interpret the word to fit their wordly desires and/or sins. Although we are under the new testament, the old testament has a lot of foundation and wisdom that can be used to better understand how the new testament came into play in the first place. The Holy Sprit would not lead same sex relationships because such acts are not an act of GOD.
M
The aspect I am not sure about is when a gay couple provide for the orphan. For example I used to work with this guy who had a common law arrangement with this other guy. They adopted three boys all at once who's father was shot, mother was thrown in prison for prostitution and dealing and the rest of their family were just your hard core gang bangers, the children would have grown up living a life of drugs violence and might have even killed or gotten killed. Instead they are living on a farm, learning how to take care of animals, grow food and in turn provide charity themselves.
I have no right to judge this man and his other half, but I do pray for him because him and his other have done good works.
Matt
I have no right to judge this man and his other half, but I do pray for him because him and his other have done good works.
Matt
G
Genesis 2:20-24 gave us the basic plans of marriage. It says, "The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.' For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh."
Scripture tells us that homosexuality is the result of suppressing the truth, of exchanging the truth of God for a lie, and for this reason, God gave both, men, and women over to vile affections so that their bodies would be corrupt, defiled:
[FONT="]
Men are not born homosexual, but they were, however, changed by God so that they would defile themselves with other men, or women with other women, because they were suppressing the truth of God, it's a punishment. Are we to think that in order to show love for another that we should commit acts of the flesh, of fornication, adultery, incest, and beastiality? It's like saying, "I love my dog, so I think I'll..." Or, "to show my love for my mother, I'll..." Now not only is it fornication, but also adultery, for your mother is also married, and now not only is it fornication, and adultery, but now it's also incest. As the Apostle Paul asked in Romans 6:1-3, "[/FONT]What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"
If you are truly born again, you are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Holy, and Righteous Spirit of God; therefore, you will not, you can not, by your new nature, continue as you once lived, living after the flesh."Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." -- 2 Corinthians 5:17
So the pertinent question I keep asking, that is going unanswered is this: is the Spirit of God carnal? "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" -- Romans 6:2
Christ did not fulfill the Law so that we may serve sin. While the Law was fulfilled by Christ, the Spirit "took it's place" so to speak, so that true righteousness may abound! So that we may not serve sin! Because it is only through the power of God, through His Holy, and Righteous Spirit, and through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ that the chains of sin no longer have dominion over us!
Sex was meant to be between husband and wife, to show affection and love for one another, and to procreate. Jesus Christ Himself referred to Genesis 2:20-24 as the blueprint for marriage when He said, "...Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." (Matthew 19:4-6)
Scripture tells us that homosexuality is the result of suppressing the truth, of exchanging the truth of God for a lie, and for this reason, God gave both, men, and women over to vile affections so that their bodies would be corrupt, defiled:
[FONT="]
Men are not born homosexual, but they were, however, changed by God so that they would defile themselves with other men, or women with other women, because they were suppressing the truth of God, it's a punishment. Are we to think that in order to show love for another that we should commit acts of the flesh, of fornication, adultery, incest, and beastiality? It's like saying, "I love my dog, so I think I'll..." Or, "to show my love for my mother, I'll..." Now not only is it fornication, but also adultery, for your mother is also married, and now not only is it fornication, and adultery, but now it's also incest. As the Apostle Paul asked in Romans 6:1-3, "[/FONT]What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"
If you are truly born again, you are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Holy, and Righteous Spirit of God; therefore, you will not, you can not, by your new nature, continue as you once lived, living after the flesh."Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." -- 2 Corinthians 5:17
So the pertinent question I keep asking, that is going unanswered is this: is the Spirit of God carnal? "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" -- Romans 6:2
Christ did not fulfill the Law so that we may serve sin. While the Law was fulfilled by Christ, the Spirit "took it's place" so to speak, so that true righteousness may abound! So that we may not serve sin! Because it is only through the power of God, through His Holy, and Righteous Spirit, and through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ that the chains of sin no longer have dominion over us!
Sex was meant to be between husband and wife, to show affection and love for one another, and to procreate. Jesus Christ Himself referred to Genesis 2:20-24 as the blueprint for marriage when He said, "...Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." (Matthew 19:4-6)
H
Well, I'd like to make one more post before I head off to bed here. I believe that homosexuality is a sinful nature and that homosexual acts are sin. There. I said it. I've been playing the devil's advocate all along to explore the validity of the notion that God's 613 laws as found in the Torah do not apply to us today (Yes, I am one of those "Pharisees" and "legalists" I was calling you folks, because I believe in following God). Many of you have made some great arguments.
Personally, I think Harley_Angel made the best argument with the point that the Law of Love was referring to agape or phileo instead of eros. I was secretly cheering for you! DinoDillinger also deserves honorable mention. I still believe that homosexual men in a relationship with each other are capable of loving each other with a love that is as selfless as any love can get. However, I still do not believe this relationship to be condoned by God or by Scripture. Their love may be respectable, but it unfortunately leads to sodomy - which is a sin according to the Old Testament. I'd also like to point out at this time that sacrifices were also commanded by God before the apparent forming of the Torah. Consider Cain and Abel. Also, God made a sacrifice himself.
I must ask you to forgive me for the ruse I put on, but I'd like you to consider what I was doing. I was debating using the same reason some of you had - that the old laws are not applicable for us today. So those of you who were arguing weren't really arguing with me; you were arguing with yourselves.
To be honest with you I've spent some time debating with another man from a different site on the matter, and the position I put forth in this thread (as well as the same condescending, Spirit-led, enlightened attitude) was pretty much the same position he took. He couldn't back up any of his claims from the Scriptures, but somehow he still claimed to be Spirit-led because he had faith that God wouldn't lead him to conclude anything other than the truth because he was a Christian. And I don't think that God leads us to a lie. But if we refuse to let God lead with his Scriptures, then how are we going to arrive at the truth? Furthermore, would the Holy Spirit lead us down a path that didn't arrive at the Scriptures? So therefore let us examine the Scriptures and not our feelings.
Do you know why homosexual conduct is a sin? God commanded us to abstain from it in his Torah, and we are still to love God by obeying his Torah today. Why? Because the Torah is based on love. After all, it is said the Law (Torah) and all the prophets hang on love. If you took love out of the equation the Torah would collapse and be meaningless. And the Pharisees did just that. They took love out of the Sabbath day of rest, turned it into a bunch of regulations and no one could ever rest on that day again. They were so obsessed with the letter of the law that they failed to see its true intention.
The truth is that all of Paul's teachings on the law/Law can be summed up in this: we are to obey the letter of Torah within the parameters of love, because love of God and love of Man is the driving force behind it. I hope to examine some of the passages of Scripture that we all have concerns with, but I must do it later.
Again, I am sorry for putting some of you through patronizing exasperation. But I'm pretty sure my reputation was the only one on the line. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We should treat each other like it. Thanks for not biting back... too hard.
Sweet dreams.
Personally, I think Harley_Angel made the best argument with the point that the Law of Love was referring to agape or phileo instead of eros. I was secretly cheering for you! DinoDillinger also deserves honorable mention.
I still believe that homosexual men in a relationship with each other are capable of loving each other with a love that is as selfless as any love can get. However, I still do not believe this relationship to be condoned by God or by Scripture. Their love may be respectable, but it unfortunately leads to sodomy - which is a sin according to the Old Testament. I'd also like to point out at this time that sacrifices were also commanded by God before the apparent forming of the Torah. Consider Cain and Abel. Also, God made a sacrifice himself.I must ask you to forgive me for the ruse I put on, but I'd like you to consider what I was doing. I was debating using the same reason some of you had - that the old laws are not applicable for us today. So those of you who were arguing weren't really arguing with me; you were arguing with yourselves.
To be honest with you I've spent some time debating with another man from a different site on the matter, and the position I put forth in this thread (as well as the same condescending, Spirit-led, enlightened attitude) was pretty much the same position he took. He couldn't back up any of his claims from the Scriptures, but somehow he still claimed to be Spirit-led because he had faith that God wouldn't lead him to conclude anything other than the truth because he was a Christian. And I don't think that God leads us to a lie. But if we refuse to let God lead with his Scriptures, then how are we going to arrive at the truth? Furthermore, would the Holy Spirit lead us down a path that didn't arrive at the Scriptures? So therefore let us examine the Scriptures and not our feelings.
Do you know why homosexual conduct is a sin? God commanded us to abstain from it in his Torah, and we are still to love God by obeying his Torah today. Why? Because the Torah is based on love. After all, it is said the Law (Torah) and all the prophets hang on love. If you took love out of the equation the Torah would collapse and be meaningless. And the Pharisees did just that. They took love out of the Sabbath day of rest, turned it into a bunch of regulations and no one could ever rest on that day again. They were so obsessed with the letter of the law that they failed to see its true intention.
The truth is that all of Paul's teachings on the law/Law can be summed up in this: we are to obey the letter of Torah within the parameters of love, because love of God and love of Man is the driving force behind it. I hope to examine some of the passages of Scripture that we all have concerns with, but I must do it later.
Again, I am sorry for putting some of you through patronizing exasperation.
But I'm pretty sure my reputation was the only one on the line. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We should treat each other like it. Thanks for not biting back... too hard. Sweet dreams.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word,even this; thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Galatians 5:14
Now take that Scripture and aply it to the Old Testament to see if it works.
Can you kill someone if you love......no
Can you committ adultery of fornicate if you love...no because you will condemn yourself and the one your with.
Can you be gay and love......no (because of the above reason)
Can you love and stone someone if he commits adultery....no, that is an old testament commandment that no longer exists.
can you covet something someone else has if you love.....no, because if you love you will be glad for that person
Can you not keep the Sabbath and still love..........The Sabbath is no Sunday, The Sabath is Saturday and about the only people around my area that keep Saturday as the Sabbath are the Seventh-Day Adventists, Which I believe are pretty much a cult, because they take one thing out of the Bible like all these other cults and emphasis it above all else. If you keep Sunday as the Sabbath then that means you can't kindle a fire, your meals have to be prepared the day before, and I don't think you can even leave your home. Don't get me wrong I try to use Sunday as a day of rest, I think it is good to take one day and stop what we are doing and use it to honor and glorify God. We should glorify God every day of the week esensially. But I am not to judge someone who dosen't do like me because I don't see any Biblical way I can.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17
See some of these Old Testament commands were a shadow of things to come.
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G
All of the Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come, the entire Law was a shadow. Refer to my post on page 3, a discussion on 2 Corinthians 3, where it speaks about the Ten Commandments (verse 3), which were "engraved on stones" (verse 7) as something that "fades away" (verse 11). In addition, 2 Corinthians 3 also makes reference to Moses putting a veil over his face, as he did at Mount Sinai so that the sons of Israel would not see the end of what was fading away (verse 7), as also shown in Exodus 34:29-35:
"Now He said to them,'These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." -- Luke 24:44-47
It's not about you trying to achieve your own righteousness, it never was. Righteousness is imputed only by faith (which is a gift of God), as shown in Romans 4:4-6, and in Romans 4:20-24. If righteousness came by the Law, then why did Christ die? There would be no need for His death if we could earn our own way into heaven. Further, the Spirit is given to us so that we may not serve sin. Where the Law had no power to change a man, the Spirit does.
"Now He said to them,'These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." -- Luke 24:44-47
It's not about you trying to achieve your own righteousness, it never was. Righteousness is imputed only by faith (which is a gift of God), as shown in Romans 4:4-6, and in Romans 4:20-24. If righteousness came by the Law, then why did Christ die? There would be no need for His death if we could earn our own way into heaven. Further, the Spirit is given to us so that we may not serve sin. Where the Law had no power to change a man, the Spirit does.
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DinoDillinger wrote: "So we can call it the Law of forsaking your life and all its desire's [...]" So we have the old law which has been done away with even though Jesus implied it wasn't abolished, and we have either the New Revised Law or the Laws of Asceticism and Love.
Dread_Zeppelin raised a very good point. She said: "I have to ask you a question based on your reasoning. Why are we allowed to have homosexual relationships now and not before? How is that 'fulfilling' a law?" Now as I've already pointed out I wasn't using my reasoning in this debate. I was using your reasoning (not specifically you, Dread). I hear it said that we no longer need to observe the Sabbath or we no longer need to obey the food laws because Christ has fulfilled those laws. So what does that mean to you?
I've already shown:
1. Abstaining from homosexual practices isn't found in the Ten Commandments. If you want to use the Ten Commandments as a special "moral law" you can't include homosexuality unless you search outside of the Ten Commandments (i.e. this "moral law"). This then becomes an arbitrary process of picking and choosing laws based not on God's morals but on your own culturally-influenced concept of morals.
2. If you go by severity of punishment as an indication of the "moral law" then you have to include with abstaining from homosexual acts the laws against mixing up a special batch of incense, circumcising (Exodus 4:24-26), observing the Sabbath day and observing the Sabbath Year. So is it moral to not observe a complete year of rest? Is it moral to not observe a day of rest? Is it moral to remain uncircumcised?
Perhaps you think obeying the Sabbath was loving God at the time because God commanded it and it was thus moral to observe it. But now we don't need to observe it. Well, look at #1 in my two points again. What makes you think observing the Sabbath isn't moral? What makes you think that not scattering your field with two kinds of seed isn't moral? What makes you think that not eating shrimp or pork isn't moral? All of those could very well be moral laws and thus under the same category as abstaining from homosexual acts. It's just that it doesn't feel moral to you. So you assign it a trivial value.
But what if I said, "When you're scattering your field with seed you represent the Son of Man. One seed represents the sons of the kingdom and the other the sons of the evil one. By scattering your field with two kinds of seed you've just equated God to doing the work of Satan (Matthew 13:37-39)." I could also say, "Our clothing represents acts of righteousness (Revelation 19:8). By wearing clothing woven of wool and linen (Deuteronomy 22:11) you've just clothed yourself with good and evil deeds at the same time. Is this not perverse?" Then I could say, "Circumcision represents the circumcising of our hearts from the world to God (Deuteronomy 10:16). By refusing to be circumcised you're showing that your hearts are still attached to the flesh - still attached to the things of this world." "But," you say, "Paul showed that circumcision was wrong!" No, he didn't. Paul is a very misunderstood man. Paul said that those who were trying to be declared righteous by God on the grounds of observing the law in a legalistic way have circumcised themselves from Christ. This was his very clever way of speaking out against those who tried to be righteous by the whole law (which included circumcision). He used circumcision - something ordained by God - as a bad thing because that's what they had turned it into! That's all he was saying.
Morals have less to do with feeling and more with absolutes. God's Torah, which included all of these stipulations some think to be so trivial, has lost its meaning because they've refused to consider it of any importance. You just brush it aside and say we shouldn't observe it. But what does Christ say on the subject?
Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Note in verse 17 that he makes a distinction between abolishing and fulfilling. If abolishing means "doing away with" and fulfilling does not mean abolishing, does the Torah still stand in its entirety? Therefore, which of God's commands have become trivial for us or become abolished for us? Note also in verse 20 that the Pharisees are implied to disobey God's Law. Why? Because they made up their own commandments and taught them in the place of God's Law (Matthew 15:9). What are we doing today? We're teaching the doctrine of Men that we don't need to obey God's Law because Christ has fulfilled it (which Dread_Zeppelin has already pointed out doesn't make any sense).
You say, "Look, you're not reading in context. You didn't read verse 10." Matthew 15:2 is also contextually relevant and it shows that Jesus was talking about the Pharisees' ritual of hand washing. This belief stated that they would make the food ritually unclean unless they first washed their hands. If they didn't wash their hands then the uncleanness of the food would transfer over to them and it would make them unclean by eating it. This ritual of theirs, I believe, was based on Exodus 30:20-21, but they had twisted it to mean that what God had made clean then became unclean. Not all things were given to us by God for food (Leviticus 11:47). But those that were given to us by God for food were considered clean. The Pharisees were saying that even those God had given us for food weren't clean. This was another one of their traditions that came in conflict with God's Law.
Having argued so long for God's laws, who is prepared to argue against them? Because those that say it is unnecessary to follow God's laws - as he said it was in order to be in obedience to him - have already taught against his commandments. In place they've used the tradition of the Pharisees, putting forth the doctrines of Men.
Dread_Zeppelin raised a very good point. She said: "I have to ask you a question based on your reasoning. Why are we allowed to have homosexual relationships now and not before? How is that 'fulfilling' a law?" Now as I've already pointed out I wasn't using my reasoning in this debate. I was using your reasoning (not specifically you, Dread). I hear it said that we no longer need to observe the Sabbath or we no longer need to obey the food laws because Christ has fulfilled those laws. So what does that mean to you?
I've already shown:
1. Abstaining from homosexual practices isn't found in the Ten Commandments. If you want to use the Ten Commandments as a special "moral law" you can't include homosexuality unless you search outside of the Ten Commandments (i.e. this "moral law"). This then becomes an arbitrary process of picking and choosing laws based not on God's morals but on your own culturally-influenced concept of morals.
2. If you go by severity of punishment as an indication of the "moral law" then you have to include with abstaining from homosexual acts the laws against mixing up a special batch of incense, circumcising (Exodus 4:24-26), observing the Sabbath day and observing the Sabbath Year. So is it moral to not observe a complete year of rest? Is it moral to not observe a day of rest? Is it moral to remain uncircumcised?
Perhaps you think obeying the Sabbath was loving God at the time because God commanded it and it was thus moral to observe it. But now we don't need to observe it. Well, look at #1 in my two points again. What makes you think observing the Sabbath isn't moral? What makes you think that not scattering your field with two kinds of seed isn't moral? What makes you think that not eating shrimp or pork isn't moral? All of those could very well be moral laws and thus under the same category as abstaining from homosexual acts. It's just that it doesn't feel moral to you. So you assign it a trivial value.
But what if I said, "When you're scattering your field with seed you represent the Son of Man. One seed represents the sons of the kingdom and the other the sons of the evil one. By scattering your field with two kinds of seed you've just equated God to doing the work of Satan (Matthew 13:37-39)." I could also say, "Our clothing represents acts of righteousness (Revelation 19:8). By wearing clothing woven of wool and linen (Deuteronomy 22:11) you've just clothed yourself with good and evil deeds at the same time. Is this not perverse?" Then I could say, "Circumcision represents the circumcising of our hearts from the world to God (Deuteronomy 10:16). By refusing to be circumcised you're showing that your hearts are still attached to the flesh - still attached to the things of this world." "But," you say, "Paul showed that circumcision was wrong!" No, he didn't. Paul is a very misunderstood man. Paul said that those who were trying to be declared righteous by God on the grounds of observing the law in a legalistic way have circumcised themselves from Christ. This was his very clever way of speaking out against those who tried to be righteous by the whole law (which included circumcision). He used circumcision - something ordained by God - as a bad thing because that's what they had turned it into! That's all he was saying.
Morals have less to do with feeling and more with absolutes. God's Torah, which included all of these stipulations some think to be so trivial, has lost its meaning because they've refused to consider it of any importance. You just brush it aside and say we shouldn't observe it. But what does Christ say on the subject?
Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Note in verse 17 that he makes a distinction between abolishing and fulfilling. If abolishing means "doing away with" and fulfilling does not mean abolishing, does the Torah still stand in its entirety? Therefore, which of God's commands have become trivial for us or become abolished for us? Note also in verse 20 that the Pharisees are implied to disobey God's Law. Why? Because they made up their own commandments and taught them in the place of God's Law (Matthew 15:9). What are we doing today? We're teaching the doctrine of Men that we don't need to obey God's Law because Christ has fulfilled it (which Dread_Zeppelin has already pointed out doesn't make any sense).
You say, "Look, you're not reading in context. You didn't read verse 10." Matthew 15:2 is also contextually relevant and it shows that Jesus was talking about the Pharisees' ritual of hand washing. This belief stated that they would make the food ritually unclean unless they first washed their hands. If they didn't wash their hands then the uncleanness of the food would transfer over to them and it would make them unclean by eating it. This ritual of theirs, I believe, was based on Exodus 30:20-21, but they had twisted it to mean that what God had made clean then became unclean. Not all things were given to us by God for food (Leviticus 11:47). But those that were given to us by God for food were considered clean. The Pharisees were saying that even those God had given us for food weren't clean. This was another one of their traditions that came in conflict with God's Law.
Having argued so long for God's laws, who is prepared to argue against them? Because those that say it is unnecessary to follow God's laws - as he said it was in order to be in obedience to him - have already taught against his commandments. In place they've used the tradition of the Pharisees, putting forth the doctrines of Men.
G
You're right to say that Christ fulfilled the whole Law, because He did. But you are gravely mistaken to say that man is free to sin, since we are no longer under the Law.
[FONT="]As the Apostle Paul asked in Romans 6:1-3, "[/FONT]What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"
If you are truly born again, you are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Holy, and Righteous Spirit of God; therefore, you will not, you can not, by your new nature, continue as you once lived, living after the flesh."Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." -- 2 Corinthians 5:17
So the pertinent question I keep asking, that is going unanswered is this: is the Spirit of God carnal? No. So then, "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" -- Romans 6:2
Christ did not fulfill the Law so that we may serve sin more abundantly. While the Law was fulfilled by Christ, the Spirit was given to us so that true righteousness may abound, so that we may not serve sin! It is only through the power of God, through His Holy, and Righteous Spirit, and through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ that the chains of sin no longer have dominion over us!
[FONT="]As the Apostle Paul asked in Romans 6:1-3, "[/FONT]What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"
If you are truly born again, you are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Holy, and Righteous Spirit of God; therefore, you will not, you can not, by your new nature, continue as you once lived, living after the flesh."Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." -- 2 Corinthians 5:17
So the pertinent question I keep asking, that is going unanswered is this: is the Spirit of God carnal? No. So then, "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" -- Romans 6:2
Christ did not fulfill the Law so that we may serve sin more abundantly. While the Law was fulfilled by Christ, the Spirit was given to us so that true righteousness may abound, so that we may not serve sin! It is only through the power of God, through His Holy, and Righteous Spirit, and through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ that the chains of sin no longer have dominion over us!
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