my last argument for obedience

[Grace777x70]

VVhat they are, basically, getting at is a question. "Do you believe in the Trinity?" Is Jesus Christ divine, is He your God? They aren't asking if He is the Son of God, they are asking you if He, Jesus, is YOUR GOD [capitalization added for emphasis]?

Basically, is Jesus just as equally God as God, the Father or the Holy Spirit? They are one, so the question they are asking you is inquiring about your belief in Jesus as God, Himself.

This is a good question and I can see where people could get confused because the scriptures often talk about God and then His Son. God in the greek usually has "the" in front of God - which is referring to the Father. If it doesn't then it's talking about God in the form of all three in the trinity or even individually depending on the context.

Here it says that God is our Savior. Jesus is our Savior but it also says that God ( the Father and Holy Spirit ) was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

1 Timothy 2:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

Here it says that God is both Jesus and our Savior.

Titus 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

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[TD="class: post, colspan: 2"]Adding these into the thread


"Lord Lord"

"Lord Lord" is often used in contexts where those adressed do not as he says. He
then goes onto the one coming to him, and hearing him and doing what he says

And this is laying the foundation on a rock (hearing Christ and doing His words)

Whereas this one is without a foundation (which heareth and doeth not His words)

Again, "Lord Lord" is tied into not doing the things which he says

Even as Jesus said here,

There is a "therefore"

And to the contrary, one without a foundation

Paul here confirms the foundation of God standeth sure, and tells them to depart from iniquity

The Lord knoweth them that "are his". The command to "depart from inquity" in contrast to here

Sent to bless you in turning every one of you from his inquities

Who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity

Yielding ourselves, whether of sin unto death or obedience is unto righteousness

Who were once disobedient and obeying sin in the lust thereof

And as we have yeilded your members to inquity change course be servants of righteousness

So we have "let every one that nameth the name of the Christ
to depart from inquity" or the words of Jesus to them
"I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity"

"In thy name" is mentioned three times in the things believers would also do ( in Mat 7:22 )
and yet he never knew them. In 2 Ti 2:19 Paul speaks of the foundation
of God standing sure (which is Christ and his words) having this seal, "The Lord knoweth them that are his".
Paul commands them who name the name of Christ to depart from iniquity
whereas Jesus is shown saying to them "I never knew you, depart from me ye that "work iniquity"


Here also it says,

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy

And on that day they which did so do mention this very same

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name,

And even as Jesus says this,

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues

And again we see on the last day they are shown saying likewise

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not...cast out demons in your name,

As well as them and doing many mighty works in his name, even as it says,

For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

But again first it says (concernig iniquities) this

Acts 3:26
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning awayevery one of you from his iniquities

So to bless in turning away from each ones inquities and redeem us from all the same and purify us to be zealous of good works

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

And here we see they are prophesying, casting out devils, and doing many wonderful works (even in Jesus Christ name) as Jesus points out all three, and three times (as done specifically so) in his name

Matt 7: 22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And what he would profess to them (and what for reason)

Mat 7: 23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity.

Even as Paul warns to depart from iniquity here

2 Ti 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth themthat are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Then goes into obeying that form of doctrine that was delivered to you.


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[Grace777x70]

Notice that in Matt 7:19-23..

Jesus said "I never knew you "...these people were not believers...( Jesus never said " I used to know you once...He said I NEVER knew you at all...).

Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....

John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world

Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:


It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him. It is His fruit that bears in and through us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jason, you don't find it odd that you put Jesus Christ's words above the apostle Paul's words? You said, if you had to choose you'd go with Jesus, but the problem with that is that they are in agreement. It isn't an either or, or for that matter should you even suggest such.

In matters of doubt or apparent contradiction, when things aren't perfectly clear, Jesus' words take precedence over Paul's words because Jesus is lord and Paul isn't. To say otherwise is the same game that some Hebrew Roots folks play by saying that every word spoken by Moses was really spoken by Jesus, therefore we need to live by the words of Moses, which completely destroys the gospel.

 

[Grace777x70]

To deny the finished work of Christ which is by grace through faith alone for salvation is denying the Lord and Master.

This doesn't matter how many times one has turned a cheek when hit. It doesn't matter how many times they followed the good things in Jesus' teachings. The true Christian life is Christ in us living His life and bearing His fruit for His glory. Without Him we can do nothing.

We can see the differences between doing things in our flesh - our own human effort to fulfill the words of God - and between the Holy Spirit bearing fruit in us as He transforms us.

Look at the life of Abraham - he tried to fulfill all of "God's word" to him by creating an Ishmael. This is human effort at it's finest ( Abraham didn't seem to fight about taking Hagar as Sarah said for some reason.. ...I wonder what was up with that? )

Instead when both Abraham and Sarah were past their human ability to "perform the word of God"..that's when God stepped in and gave them the ability to conceive the son of the promise.

This is the difference between trying to live by Jesus' teachings in our flesh and by the Holy Spirit within living from His life inside of us because of being in Christ.

He is the Vine - we are the branches. Branches do not produce fruit - it's the life of the plant that bears fruit in the branches. No one can produce fruit in their lives by what "they do" by their flesh...it's only by the life of Christ flowing through and in us.

This is the difference from follow the teachings of Jesus and Christ living His life in and through us.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Outwardly they look the same - doing things by the self-effort of the flesh and doing things by the Spirit. God does not recognize anything done by the flesh - no matter how good the intentions are. This includes following the teachings of Jesus by our flesh.

God told Abraham - "Take your son - your ONLY son and go..." God didn't recognize Ishmael as being a son along with Isaac - he is the son of the promise birthed by the life and power of God alone.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You keep recommending reading the four gospel accounts. I suggest you move past those four accounts and grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ that Jesus, Himself, revealed to the apostle Paul. You say you savor the words of Christ? He is speaking through the rest of the NT. My suggestion? Keep reading.

Move past what Lord Jesus himself said, and pay more attention to what Lord Grace says. This in essence is what we're dealing with here.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jason, would you say you are a Unitarian? Some of the stances you hold would make it seem so. Even the way you described the Holy Spirit seemed to be lacking personhood. You also don't seem to be telling anyone straightforward that Jesus is deity. All these beliefs fall under Unitarianism. Just curious.

Don't want to be bombarding you, I just think from what you have presented and the way you are speaking of Jesus and the Holy Spirit it seems to point to Unitarianism.

He's so far from being Unitarian that it's laughable to think so.

 

[Grace777x70]

Jason, you don't find it odd that you put Jesus Christ's words above the apostle Paul's words? You said, if you had to choose you'd go with Jesus, but the problem with that is that they are in agreement. It isn't an either or, or for that matter should you even suggest such.

The word of God is inspired by the Holy Spirit. In the word of God, since it is all inspired, you cannot put emphasis over one section than another. Or, the red letters over the rest of the bible. That is dangerous. You ignore all that Jesus taught the apostle Paul and stay in the past of what was progressive revelation. Jesus, Himself, said He couldn't teach some things until the Holy Spirit came.

I think your emphasis of only focusing on the words of Jesus in your bible is sincerely wrong. If you do that you miss out on so much that God found necessary to share in the epistles. Indeed, you miss the very foundation that is Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. You still think your forgiveness and obedience somehow plays a part in your justification, yet to do so ignores what Jesus accomplished on our behalf (through His obedience). That is, reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins.

You keep recommending reading the four gospel accounts. I suggest you move past those four accounts and grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ that Jesus, Himself, revealed to the apostle Paul. You say you savor the words of Christ? He is speaking through the rest of the NT. My suggestion? Keep reading.

This is true Ben...did you know that there are websites that say Paul was a heretic because he conflicted with the teachings of Jesus.

In reality what they are saying is "Paul does not agree with what "I" believe Jesus' teachings meant and how they apply to us so Paul was not obeying the words of Jesus"...they have little or no understanding of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

It's all human effort to these people and they create and maintain "their" salvation by what "they do". They will say and use the name of Jesus to legitimize their "works" salvation. This is NOT the gospel. This is in fact anti-Christ beliefs even though it is masked with Christianized language.

 

[gb9]

In matters of doubt or apparent contradiction, when things aren't perfectly clear, Jesus' words take precedence over Paul's words because Jesus is lord and Paul isn't. To say otherwise is the same game that some Hebrew Roots folks play by saying that every word spoken by Moses was really spoken by Jesus, therefore we need to live by the words of Moses, which completely destroys the gospel.

ah-ha, so now we get to play the Jesus vs. Paul game. you know, i'm going to throw this in here: THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONTRADICT. what some on here do is this, they try to set Scripture against Scripture, instead of using Scripture and Scripture.

 

[Grace777x70]

ah-ha, so now we get to play the Jesus vs. Paul game. you know, i'm going to throw this in here: THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONTRADICT. what some on here do is this, they try to set Scripture against Scripture, instead of using Scripture and Scripture.

WOW..well said! If I could like this 100x times - I would.

 

[gb9]

also, here is some Bible facts: the books of the Bible did not have chapters and verses until the 13-16 centuries. ( and in my opinion doing so was a man-made mistake because it lead to so much division in the Body, but that is just my 2 cents).

so, to pluck out verses and try to say this has more weight than that, when the books were books and letters were letters, is a massive mistake. context and continuality should always be applied.

 

[mailmandan]

This is a good question and I can see where people could get confused because the scriptures often talk about God and then His Son. God in the greek usually has "the" in front of God - which is referring to the Father. If it doesn't then it's talking about God in the form of all three in the trinity or even individually depending on the context.

Here it says that God is our Savior. Jesus is our Savior but it also says that God ( the Father and Holy Spirit ) was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

1 Timothy 2:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

Here it says that God is both Jesus and our Savior.

Titus 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

I've heard anti-Trinitarians quote, .."for the Father is greater than I" in John 14:28 and say ah ha, Jesus is not equal with the Father, yet Jesus here is speaking from His "humanity." In John 10:30, Jesus speaking from His Deity said, "I and the Father are one."

Colossians 2:9 - In Him (Christ) all the fullness of the Godhead/Deity dwells in bodily form.

 

[Grace777x70]

also, here is some Bible facts: the books of the Bible did not have chapters and verses until the 13-16 centuries. ( and in my opinion doing so was a man-made mistake because it lead to so much division in the Body, but that is just my 2 cents).

so, to pluck out verses and try to say this has more weight than that, when the books were books and letters were letters, is a massive mistake. context and continuality should always be applied.

Amen...and it is a known fact that the gospels were written after Paul had wrote some of his epistles - especially the book of John which was written about 20 years after the death of Paul. I think James was the very first book written. All scripture is in harmony if we depend on the Holy Spirit to reveal it's truths to us.

Every one had the OT scriptures back then but they clearly didn't understand them as can be seen by the life of Christ and HIs constant battle with religious people that supposedly KNEW the scriptures. It's funny how it's the simple folks that got grace and the religious people got the Law when Jesus dealt with them individually.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

ah-ha, so now we get to play the Jesus vs. Paul game. you know, i'm going to throw this in here: THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONTRADICT. what some on here do is this, they try to set Scripture against Scripture, instead of using Scripture and Scripture.

I said that in matters in which there can be doubt, we need to give Jesus' words precedence. That's just basic good sense. But you found fault with that.

This is the game that lawless grace folks are playing: co-opt, deconstruct, redefine. This is the postmodern methodology for destroying Christianity.

1. Co-opt (Jesus words and Paul's words are the same)
2. Deconstruct (Paul said A, Jesus said B which seems to contradict A. Introduce doubt that Jesus didn't really mean B)
3. Redefine (Paul's words are correct, Jesus' words are ignored)

 

[tourist]

ah-ha, so now we get to play the Jesus vs. Paul game. you know, i'm going to throw this in here: THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONTRADICT. what some on here do is this, they try to set Scripture against Scripture, instead of using Scripture and Scripture.

I fully agree. The bible absolutely does not contradict itself. Scripture and Scripture instead of Scripture against Scripture? This is excellent. Outstanding in its application. Profound.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Jesus prayed that we would be one in the same exact way he and the Father are one

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus prayed that we would be one in the same exact way he and the Father are one

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Amen!..great scripture..thanks. Jesus always gets His prayer answered too!....we will grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus as His Spirit guides us into all things concerning our Lord and what He has already done for us by His grace.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Amen!..great scripture..thanks. Jesus always gets His prayer answered too!....we will grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus as His Spirit guides us into all things concerning our Lord and what He has already done for us by His grace.

Seems to follow the same in one

1 Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

As it pertains to the glory the Father gave the Son he says,

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;
that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Which pertains to beholding him as through the Spirit, which is His inward image (showing us the Father)

2 Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Not beheld by the eyes of the flesh

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,
neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The world seeth him not but you will as you can behold the glory of the Lord even as by the Spirit, and by faith look at what is unseen (which is eternal) as is His Spirit and even as by the same.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is an aspect of growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and sometimes that takes time for the Holy Spirit to transform us outwardly to manifest His life , this life is already in our inner man of the heart - created in righteousness and holiness.

The gospel of the grace of Christ is the fact that we are a new creation because we are in Christ, so if we do not follow Jesus commands the way we should = it could be because we are not renewed in our mind to the fact we are a new creation. Does this mean we don't need grace? No. It means we are continually abiding and growing in grace because we are continually realizing who we are now in Christ.

Seeing who we really are in Christ releases the life of Christ to make us effortlessly become outwardly expressed in our behavior who we really are in Him in our inner man in Christ.

We cannot produce by our flesh a life that is pleasing to God because it takes faith to believe in all the things that Christ that has already done for us. This is why we are saved by grace through faith alone in what Christ has done from start to finish. No flesh shall get glory in God's presence. The flesh profits nothing but it is the Spirit that gives life.

And this results in being more like Christ not less. And Christ was the fulfillment of the law, which is love. The difference is that we do not love because we have to, we love because He first loved us. Not to keep some requirement, but because His law is written on our heart and mind.

So in fact grace empowers holiness. It does not detract from it. Religion and legalism detract from true holiness ( which is God's holiness only - not a work produced by the flesh ) - because they make the ways of God a requirement instead of from a cheerful obedient heart of a son manifesting their Lord's life in them.

 

[bikerchaz]

Would it presumptuous of me to say I think we are all coming to the same thing from different angles. I have not heard any one on here say that by doing good works we earn our salvation. I think we all agree it is a gift, given freely when we accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, period.

We all have to now, run our race. Didn't Jesus say within the parable of earnings that those who worked all day earned a penny and those who were seconded into the work an hour before the day's finished also earned a penny? What Our God has and what He wants to give us is His business and His right to do with as He sees fit.
The thing is we had/were given our penny (Salvation) as soon as we agreed to go into the field to work, we didn't have to put any effort in to get it (grace), because we can't it was a gift.

Now we come to our lives, the working through the day. Some don't work for long and some work for years, some have an easy job and some have it hard, some spend their life in Jesus as a bright flame to be extinguished soon after ignition others simmer gently providing a more long term beacon of light.

But there is a work to do and now is when we do it. And going out into the world is where we 'do it', looking outwards, not inwards. Inwards has been taken care of it is the outwards that we have to do. I am very conscious of this "to do"; No it (to do) is not earning, it (to do) is being faithful to the command's of Jesus in that we love each other as He has loved us and showing (doing) this love to the world so all flesh will not perish.

There is no secret to this 'to do' , it is 'to be', to 'become' To let Jesus become in all of us. isn't it?
(reading this through I am not certain the parable I chose was the best one, but I am sticking with it as a God-incidence)