Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

[Wall]

Gettin back to the original question of this thread

HEBREWS 11 [28] THROUGH FAITH HE KEPT THE PASSOVER, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

[FONT=&quot]"Many" claim you cant mix law and faith, yet here we find Moses keeping the law of the passover by faith. Hmmm[/FONT]

 

[know1]

When I think about the law and grace, I think about works.
Under the law you have works.
And under grace you have works as well.
The bible talks about, "works of the law" and "works of faith".
Would anyone care to differentiate between the two?
Contrary to a very popular belief, you had to do a work to receive your free gift of salvation.

 

[Wall]

ROMANS 4 [13] For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.[14] For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:[15] Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.[16] THEREFORE IT IS OF FAITH, THAT IT MIGHT BE BY GRACE; to the end THE PROMISE MIGHT BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Seems Abraham and his seed recieved the promise through faith

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I WILL GIVE ALL THESE COUNTRIES, AND I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, AND WILL GIVE UNTO THY SEED all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.

But... Abe was also keeping Gods 10 commandments {its all about HEARING HIS VOICE}. Seems honest Abe was mixing those apples and oranges. Faith and the law.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Gettin back to the original question of this thread

HEBREWS 11 [28] THROUGH FAITH HE KEPT THE PASSOVER, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

"Many" claim you cant mix law and faith, yet here we find Moses keeping the law of the passover by faith. Hmmm

Hello Wall,

Yes, Moses kept the Law and had faith, because at that time, both were required, but neither were of any profit by themselves. For Christ had not yet come and so the sacrificial law done with animals was in operation. Now that Christ has appeared, we are no longer under the law. Jesus should be our only blessed hope for salvation, without including any of our own works, for his sacrifice was completely sufficient without our help.

 

[Wall]

When I think about the law and grace, I think about works.
Under the law you have works.
And under grace you have works as well.
The bible talks about, "works of the law" and "works of faith".
Would anyone care to differentiate between the two?
Contrary to a very popular belief, you had to do a work to receive your free gift of salvation.

Not sure if this answers your question

EPH.2 [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.[8] FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

It is by the grace of God that we are saved. Period. It is a free gift. But to whom is this free gift given? Verse 10 says that those people who will receive the free gift of grace will be walking in good works. What are these good works which GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that "we must walk in"?

2 JOHN 1 [4] I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. [6] And this is love, that WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, AS YE HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING, YE SHOULD WALK IN IT.

Youve heard it from the beginning {before ordained}. Its the 10 commandments that we should walk in. But we will fall short. We will sin. No one but Jesus has kept the 10 commandments perfectly.

 

[oyster67]

When I think about the law and grace, I think about works.
Under the law you have works.
And under grace you have works as well.
The bible talks about, "works of the law" and "works of faith".
Would anyone care to differentiate between the two?
Contrary to a very popular belief, you had to do a work to receive your free gift of salvation.

Do you consider dying to self and making a choice to follow Jesus a work?

 

[Wall]

Hello Wall,

Yes, Moses kept the Law and had faith, because at that time, both were required, but neither were of any profit by themselves.

Hello my Rapturist friend. Speakin of no profit

MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

So who are these people God does not know? Its they who practice lawlessness. Those who made Gods law void.

JEREMIAH 16 [19] O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, THE GENTILES SHALL COME UNTO THEE FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, AND SHALL SAY, SURELY OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Jer.16 is a “Day of the Lord” scripture as is Matt.7. The “many” Gentiles have inherited lies. No profit! Why no profit?

ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I AM THE LORD THY GOD WHICH TEACHETH THEE TO PROFIT, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Whose your Redeemer? Profit! The 10 commandments. Most gentiles ignore Gods 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment.

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Theres the people that know God

 

[oyster67]

Works follow salvation. They do not, they must not, precede it. We have nothing to boast in.

 

[oyster67]

Hello my Rapturist friend. Speakin of no profit

MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

So who are these people God does not know? Its they who practice lawlessness. Those who made Gods law void.

JEREMIAH 16 [19] O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, THE GENTILES SHALL COME UNTO THEE FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, AND SHALL SAY, SURELY OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Jer.16 is a “Day of the Lord” scripture as is Matt.7. The “many” Gentiles have inherited lies. No profit! Why no profit?

ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I AM THE LORD THY GOD WHICH TEACHETH THEE TO PROFIT, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Whose your Redeemer? Profit! The 10 commandments. Most gentiles ignore Gods 4[SUP]th[/SUP] commandment.

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Theres the people that know God

Our commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind.

 

[know1]

Not sure if this answers your question

EPH.2 [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.[8] FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

It is by the grace of God that we are saved. Period. It is a free gift. But to whom is this free gift given? Verse 10 says that those people who will receive the free gift of grace will be walking in good works. What are these good works which GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that "we must walk in"?

2 JOHN 1 [4] I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. [6] And this is love, that WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, AS YE HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING, YE SHOULD WALK IN IT.

Youve heard it from the beginning {before ordained}. Its the 10 commandments that we should walk in. But we will fall short. We will sin. No one but Jesus has kept the 10 commandments perfectly.

No sir, you mostly missed it.
Yes, we are saved by grace, but we would have no grace without God's faith.
For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH.
Let's face it, there is no grace without the person applying the faith of God in their own life.
Isn't that right?
Yes, God love everyone, but salvation is given to them that believe to the saving of the soul.
The big question then is, what make faith, faith?

 

[know1]

Do you consider dying to self and making a choice to follow Jesus a work?

No.
That would be like asking if repenting is a work.

 

[Wall]

Works follow salvation. They do not, they must not, precede it. We have nothing to boast in.

Believe me, we have no reason to boast. We ALL have fallen short. We ALL are as filthy rags

PSALM 119 [166]Lord, I HAVE HOPED FOR THY SALVATION, AND DONE THY COMMANDMENTS. [167] My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly. [168] I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee. [169] Let my cry come near before thee, O Lord: give me understanding according to thy word. [170] Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word. [171] My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes. [172] My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. [173] Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts. [174] I HAVE LONGED FOR THY SALVATION, O LORD; AND THY LAW IS MY DELIGHT.

But in above scripture you can plainly see the order.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Do you consider dying to self and making a choice to follow Jesus a work?

Good question.

This is not directed at you, but if these were considered a work, should they not be practiced because they are?

Paul said,

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Paul said he practiced this

1 Cr 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means,
when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Makes sense in light of this verse in respects to being castaway

Luke 9:25
For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world,
and lose himself, or be cast away?

Similar advice for Tim to practice as well

1 Ti 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them:
for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

 

[Wall]

No sir, you mostly missed it.
Yes, we are saved by grace, but we would have no grace without God's faith.
For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH.
Let's face it, there is no grace without the person applying the faith of God in their own life.
Isn't that right?
Yes, God love everyone, but salvation is given to them that believe to the saving of the soul.
The big question then is, what make faith, faith?

Posted these scriptures earlier

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus

Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law {the 10 commandments, the schoolmaster}. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. No shortcuts. Then there is no condemnation. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?


ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Wall]

No sir, you mostly missed it.
Yes, we are saved by grace, but we would have no grace without God's faith.
For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH.
Let's face it, there is no grace without the person applying the faith of God in their own life.
Isn't that right?
Yes, God love everyone, but salvation is given to them that believe to the saving of the soul.
The big question then is, what make faith, faith?

Im guessing you believe you are saved already? The born again thing? Not so.

1PETER1
[4] To AN INHERITANCE INCORRUPTIBLE, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
[5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto SALVATION READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME.
[9] Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, EVEN THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST;

You see what Peter says. You will be saved when Jesus returns

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi Wall,

MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY."

So who are these people God does not know? Its they who practice lawlessness. Those who made Gods law void.

The answer to your question can be found right in the scripture and it is not the one you provided. If you will notice in the scripture, when those people find out that they are not able to enter in they will exclaim:

"'Lord, Lord, [did we not] prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Their very response tells us why they will not enter and that because they will respond to Jesus with the reason why they should enter in as being by their own of the works that they will have done (did we not prophecy and cast demons and do many miracles). They will be counting on their own works, their own efforts as why they should enter into the kingdom of God, when scripture is clear that is by grace through faith that we are saved and not by works. They will have not been trusting in Christ, which is why they will not enter in. By the way, the commandments of God are not the keeping of the law of Moses, but the works of God are these, "to believe in the One whom He sent and to love one another." Those are the commands that John is talking about, not the keeping of the law of Moses.

 

[oyster67]

Good question.

This is not directed at you, but if these were considered a work, should they not be practiced because they are?

Paul said,

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Paul said he practiced this

1 Cr 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means,
when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Makes sense in light of this verse in respects to being castaway

Luke 9:25
For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world,
and lose himself, or be cast away?

Similar advice for Tim to practice as well

1 Ti 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them:
for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

I agree that we must abide in the vine. My meaning is that when I initially come to Jesus, I come just as I am. I agree that the dog must not return to the vomit. Jesus will never forsake us, but I understand that some will forsake Him, even turning away after they had tasted and partaken of the saving grace and blood of Jesus.

 

[Wall]

Hi Wall,

By the way, the commandments of God are not the keeping of the law of Moses, but the works of God are these, "to believe in the One whom He sent and to love one another." Those are the commands that John is talking about, not the keeping of the law of Moses.

They are very smooth words Ahwatukee but....How does the new testament tell us the way to love one another? Your tryin to tell me we need not keep Gods 10 commandments because we are givin a new testament commandment “to love one another”. Problem is the new testament scriptures tell us how to “love one another”.

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

To love the children of God, we are to keep the commandments

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Love one another. Keep the commandments

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, Thou shalt not bear false witness, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because im sure the next thing i hear is that it is not the 10 commandments being mentioned. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. And i suppose i will hear you say that since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored. Not so.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

I agree that we must abide in the vine. My meaning is that when I initially come to Jesus, I come just as I am. I agree that the dog must not return to the vomit. Jesus will never forsake us, but I understand that some will forsake Him, even turning away after they had tasted and partaken of the saving grace and blood of Jesus.

You definately cannot come to Jesus as anything other that what you are.

I would think we all come to him as we are.

I know of no other way to come to him.

He speaks of the one "coming to him" (who hearing his words) and doing them, its this one who is considered a wise man that laid his foundation upon a rock. The other coming to him (just as equally as the first) hearing his words and not doing them is the man "without" a foundation". But would be of the one "coming to him" first to "give a listen".

Psalam 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD:
therefore will he teach sinners in the way.

Thats what they murmured against

Luke 15:2
And the Pharisees and scribes murmured,
saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

(little did they know they needed him too)

Not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

 

[Wall]

Anyone looking for directions to the city. The 1000 yr period of rest

REV.22 [12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [14] Blessed are they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

The scriptures are clear. Follow the directions to the city. Keep Gods 10 commandments if you wish to enter the city {the kingdom rest}

JER.17 [24] And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to BRING IN NO BURDEN THROUGH THE GATES OF THIS CITY ON THE SABBATH DAY, BUT HALLOW THE SABBATH DAY, to do no work therein;[25] Then shall there ENTER INTO THE GATES OF THIS CITY kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: AND THIS CITY SHALL REMAIN FOR EVER.

I only know of one city which will remain for ever and the directions to that city are a bit more detailed in Jer.17

MATT.11 [28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I WILL GIVE YOU REST.[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.[30] For MY yoke is easy, AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT..... Jer.17{24}

MATT.7 [13] Enter ye in at THE STRAIT GATE: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it......Jer.17{25}

PSALM 132 [11] The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. [12] IF THY CHILDREN WILL KEEP MY COVENANT AND MY TESTIMONY that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. [13] FOR THE LORD HATH CHOSEN ZION; HE HATH DESIRED IT FOR HIS HABITATION. [14] THIS IS MY REST FOR EVER: HERE WILL I DWELL; FOR I HAVE DESIRED IT. [15] I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. [16] I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. [17] There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed.

Verse12. Keep my covenant {10 commandments} and my testimony {of Jesus}

REV.12 [16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, WHICH KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.