Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

Wall · May 14, 2016

JOHN 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How CAN A MAN BE BORN WHEN HE IS OLD? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

John3 and Job14 are speaking of the same event. Nicodemus asks, how can a man be born when he is old? Job asks, If a man die, shall he live again? After the heavens be no more, says Job. Then will his "change" come. The changing of 1Cor.15 {in the twinkling of an eye}

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. When Jesus returns

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] FOR THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I know this will upset the rapturist but "we shall all be changed" at the coming of the Day of the Lord as the heavens pass away {If you believe Job}. At this time we are born again (corruptible puts on incorruption) and will be gathered {meet the Lord in the air} and then its off to the kingdom rest

Wall · May 14, 2016

JOHN 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.[6] That which is BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH; and that which is BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT.

Jesus tells Nic you must be born again to enter the kingdom. Verse 6 explains that which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the spirit is spirit.

1COR.15
[42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. THERE IS A NATURAL BODY, AND THERE IS A SPIRITUAL BODY. ........
[49] AND AS WE HAVE BORNE THE IMAGE OF THE EARTHY, WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Cor.15 is talking about the resurrection. Verse 42 states that rather clearly. In verse 50 you see the same thing Jesus told Nic. You cannot inherit the kingdom of God....still speaking of the resurrection. Just read John 3{6} and 1Cor.15{44}. Just read John3{6} and 1Cor.15{49}. If you believe these scriptures to be true there can be no doubt about the “born again” event.

Wall · May 14, 2016

1PETER1
[4] To AN INHERITANCE INCORRUPTIBLE, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
[5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto SALVATION READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME.
[9] Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, EVEN THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST;
[23] BEING BORN AGAIN, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, BUT OF INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Peter1 is all about being born again. Its not something that happens during the life time of a believer. Thats plain to see.....
An inheritance
Revealed in the last time
End of your faith
Hope to the end
Grace brought at the revelation of Christ
Being born again

Ya know how some will say they were saved and then tell ya the specific day that they were born again. That doesnt fit with scripture.

ROMANS 8 [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? [25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Scripture above says you are saved by hope and hope that is seen is not of hope. Now if someone claims they are already saved {born again} then what does he hope for?

1PETER1 [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST;

Hope to the end. Grace! When? When Christ returns.

1 THESSALONIANS 5 [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD SO COMETH as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. [8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, THE HOPE OF SALVATION.

Yup. Still hoping for salvation come the Day of the Lord

Wall · May 14, 2016

JOHN 3[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. [8] The WIND BLOWETH WHERE IT LISTETH, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ya see where Jesus speaks of the wind just after He says ye must be born again

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

And here the elect are gathered from the 4 winds. Also a great trumpet. The last?

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

In Ezek.37 you also find the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] resurrection {1Cor.15}. You also find the gathering of His people as He brings them to Israel for the 1000yr period of rest {not heaven}. Here again you find the 4 winds.

JOHN 3 [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. [8] The WIND BLOWETH WHERE IT LISTETH, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The 4 winds?

Wall · May 14, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

By the way, during that time.....

ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, shall ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME, saith the Lord.

Gods people will be keeping Gods sabbath day

So why do many believe that their god is a wishy washy God. Changing continually.

Old testament – keep the sabbath
New testament – dont bother
1000 yr rest (in the Kingdom) – Gotta keep the sabbath again

HEBREWS 13 [8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Wall · May 17, 2016

Wall said:

Any new testament people who have faith in Christ and are also keeping Gods law

REV.14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.

Yup. There it is. Grace through faith and the law do mix

HeRoseFromTheDead · May 17, 2016

Wall said:

Yes, faith working through love replaces trying to keep the law, and fulfills the righteousness demanded by it.

eternally-gratefull · May 17, 2016

Wall said:

So we must be perfect, Sinless, Never break the law?

ralph · May 18, 2016

It is true that people were not not able to keep the law and the law by itself could not make the hearers perfect.but through Christ in the new testament we now can fulfill the law by grace through faith believing in Jesus who made it possible for us through the new and living way through the flesh which he did.now people can stop sinning and partake of divine nature.to have sin in your flesh does not make you a sinner it is only when a person gives in to temptation that makes you a sinner.praise the lord for the gospel.

JaumeJ · May 18, 2016

Please explain the following teaching of Paul.

Rom 3:31

(ABP+)
Law[SUP]G3551 thenG3767 do we render uselessG2673 throughG1223 theG3588 belief?G4102 May it not be,G3361 G1096 ButG235 [2lawG3551 1we establish].G2476 [/SUP]
[SUP]

(ASV)
Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

(CEV)
Do we destroy the Law by our faith? Not at all! We make it even more powerful.

(Darby)
Do we then make void law by faith? Far be the thought: no, but we establish law.

　

(DRB)
Do we then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid! But we establish the law.

(FDB)
Annulons-nous donc la loi par la foi? Qu'ainsi n'advienne! au contraire, nous établissons la loi.

(FLS)
Anéantissons-nous donc la loi par la foi? Loin de là! Au contraire, nous confirmons la loi.

(HNT)
המבטלים אפוא אנחנו את־התורה על־ידי האמונה חלילה אך מקימים אנחנו את־התורה׃

(INR)
Annulliamo dunque la legge mediante la fede? No di certo! Anzi, confermiamo la legge.

(IRL)
Annulliamo noi dunque la legge mediante la fede? Così non sia; anzi, stabiliamo la legge.

(ISV)
Do we, then, abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the Law.

(KJV)
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

(KJV+)
Do we thenG3767 make voidG2673 the lawG3551 throughG1223 faith?G4102 God forbid:G1096 G3361 yea,G235 we establishG2476 the law.G3551

(ROB)
Desfiinţăm deci noi Legea prin credinţă? Nicidecum! Dimpotrivă, întărim Legea.

(SSE)
¿Luego deshacemos la ley por la fe? En ninguna manera; antes establecemos la ley.

(TKK)
Öyleyse biz iman aracılığıyla Kutsal Yasa'yı geçersiz mi kılıyoruz? Hayır, tam tersine, Yasa'yı doğruluyoruz.

(Vulgate)
legem ergo destruimus per fidem absit sed legem statuimus

(Webster)
Do we then make void the law through faith? By no means: but we establish the law.

(WNT)
Do we then by means of this faith abolish the Law? No, indeed; we give the Law a firmer footing.

　
[/SUP]

JaumeJ · May 18, 2016

I have been given to understand the scripture I have cited in post 270 above, but the majority of people will not hear it because it is so simple.

The law will never be abolished as long as there is an earth, moon and sun, yet people say this is a lie.......some people.

Others will come back with the ignorant attaack that we cannot follow all 611 laws given by Moses. Any child wh has studied Jesus Christ's teachings and example knows that with Christ's first advent, the vast majority of the laws could not be followed if a person wanted to because there are no longer sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, Temple, dietary laws nor laws without mercy, Justice and faith but it takes faith in Jesus Christ to see and understand this.

It is true the curse of the law has been utterly destroyed for all who believe Jesus Christ for death no longer has power over any who live in the grace afforded by Christ's Blood, His Precious Blood.

Any argument that we are not to obey what the Holy Spirit has given us to understand as new man behavior under the law is false, a lie. There is no harm in following the laws on good morality and behavior in general. Of course with the Holy Spirit guiding us all we need do now is consul our hearts, for the law is written there.

Go ahead and argue about the 6u11 laws given by Moses, those who blieve will obey the law written on the tablets of their hearts, and many of them just happen to be in the written laws givn by Moses. Anyone with a heart of flesh can see this quite readily.

Blessed be Jesus Christ amen.

Grace777x70 · May 18, 2016

Simple...we establish the law because we walk in the new law of Christ which are:

1) the law of the spirit of life in Crist Jesus 2) the law of love 3) the law of faith 4) the perfect law of liberty that is in Christ 5) the law of Jesus in our hearts.

In reality a Christian gentile who never studied about Moses would fulfill the intent of the law by just being in Christ. Christ Himself fulfilled all the law for us. A gentile would not even have to know that the law even existed nor ever read it to fulfill the law.

IN the law we can see the shadow of the substance which is Christ and we can be blessed as we see Christ in the OT. But we live in the newness of the spirit now and not in the oldness of the letter. ( Romans 7:6 )

This word "letter" in Romans 7:6 is the exact same word that Paul used in Timothy only here it is translated "sacred writings " .

2 Timothy 3:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] andthat from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Jesus Himself in John 5:47 uses the exact same word in talking about Moses "writings".

JaumeJ · May 18, 2016

I will reiterate..........much is in total agreement if not all..........you decide.

JaumeJ said:

I have been given to understand the scripture I have cited in post 270 above, but the majority of people will not hear it because it is so simple.

The law will never be abolished as long as there is an earth, moon and sun, yet people say this is a lie.......some people.

Others will come back with the ignorant attaack that we cannot follow all 611 laws given by Moses. Any child wh has studied Jesus Christ's teachings and example knows that with Christ's first advent, the vast majority of the laws could not be followed if a person wanted to because there are no longer sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, Temple, dietary laws nor laws without mercy, Justice and faith but it takes faith in Jesus Christ to see and understand this.

It is true the curse of the law has been utterly destroyed for all who believe Jesus Christ for death no longer has power over any who live in the grace afforded by Christ's Blood, His Precious Blood.

Any argument that we are not to obey what the Holy Spirit has given us to understand as new man behavior under the law is false, a lie. There is no harm in following the laws on good morality and behavior in general. Of course with the Holy Spirit guiding us all we need do now is consul our hearts, for the law is written there.

Go ahead and argue about the 6u11 laws given by Moses, those who blieve will obey the law written on the tablets of their hearts, and many of them just happen to be in the written laws givn by Moses. Anyone with a heart of flesh can see this quite readily.

Blessed be Jesus Christ amen.

JaumeJ · May 18, 2016

If anyone examins the scripture with comparatives from many other versions of the Word, they all agree that the Law is given firmer footing, it is established, it is strengthened etc. by faith.

The sure manner to understand this is to learn they how, why and what from the Master, not from letters to varied congregations who were having their own specific problems in specific manners that needed addressing by Paul.

Jesus is the Source..........amen

ember · May 18, 2016

Wall said:

what would you have in mind? is there something we do to receive the grace of God?

well, let's look at that

For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8

ok...11 pages of it

well, you say you keep hearing something that disagrees with the scriptures

maybe you are listening to the wrong teaching

sure, we are supposed to do 'good works', but even those are not to be efforts in our own strength

People who want to adhere to the law are constantly telling everyone what to do, how to behave, what to say and how to act...it's a joy kill and life kill and does not work

No wonder Paul says we are cursed if we try to follow the law...that's not life...that's death

John146 · May 18, 2016

JaumeJ said:

Jesus is the source of Paul's teaching. What Paul taught to the church, the body of Christ, is the doctrine the church today should live by after the resurrection and before the rapture. He would teach the same doctrine everywhere he went.

ember · May 18, 2016

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Galatians 5:1

OK...now that I agree with!

JaumeJ · May 18, 2016

No further comment.

John146 said:

JaumeJ · May 18, 2016

(Rom 7:12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The law is holy, yes it is, and it shows all that outside of the law we are only worthy of death, however through faith in Jesus Christ we are looked upon as perfect.

Yet the law is established by our faith. If you have read what I have already posted you understand very few of the laws written are yet in function due to the impossibility of their application, and you know if we do slip up in any law we live in grace, for no one is saved simply by being obedient.

This is not suggesting we disobey deliberately, but you should already know all of the above, first from Jesus Christ, and then from Paul.........

If what was engraved on cold immoveable stone is now engraved on the hearts of all who believe, how then can it be dead or obsolete? It is established by our faith......

Never even hint that being a child of obedience is being a slave or under bondage to the law, for this shows a total darkness in understanding what responsibility is encompassed by grace.. To teach disobedience is a total lack of gratitude for the salvation given freely by faith in Jesus Christ.

eternally-gratefull · May 18, 2016

JaumeJ said:

By faith you establish the law

1. You place your faith in Christ that he gave a standard you can not follow. a standard that condemns you with a curse (gal 3) and stand guilty before God, In this, you place faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. to save you from that curse, (Christ because a curse on your behalf)

2. You realize, even after you are saved, You can not fulfill the law. So IN FAITH you establish the law by learning to live humble, Grateful, giving lives, Knowing you are still a work in process (the law proves that) and if not for the grace of God. You would still stand condemned if you stood in front of an all righteous God.

3. You learn in faith, The two commands which will help you live righteous lives (following after the spirit, or using Jesus example) is to Love Lord our God, and our neighbor as ourselves, In these two commands we establish and fulfill the law and prophets. Because they stand completely in those two commands.

Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

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