Dear 'BibleGuy' . . .
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P
This dynamic has you disenfranchised.
Factor in " the substitute" . This is illustrated when the ram was substituted for Isaac . IT WAS REQUIRED THAT HE DIE. He was "saved" by God,s substitute.
You are lacking altogether the beauty of what Christ did.
The other huge dimension you are lacking is the " blood covering"
Illustrated in the blood applied to the mantle in Egypt that stayed the death angel.
The law is perfect.
The law applied to man is hideous. It is worse than the most grotesque battlefield in history.
That is the fruit of man,w/o a savior in contact with a Holy God.
What is perfect,and the very testimony of God,becomes a thing of corruption. Not that the law is corrupt,but we in our failings,spit on that which is pure and Holy.
Blood covering and substitute.
Look into it please
Factor in " the substitute" . This is illustrated when the ram was substituted for Isaac . IT WAS REQUIRED THAT HE DIE. He was "saved" by God,s substitute.
You are lacking altogether the beauty of what Christ did.
The other huge dimension you are lacking is the " blood covering"
Illustrated in the blood applied to the mantle in Egypt that stayed the death angel.
The law is perfect.
The law applied to man is hideous. It is worse than the most grotesque battlefield in history.
That is the fruit of man,w/o a savior in contact with a Holy God.
What is perfect,and the very testimony of God,becomes a thing of corruption. Not that the law is corrupt,but we in our failings,spit on that which is pure and Holy.
Blood covering and substitute.
Look into it please
P
I cried when I read the story in judges that triggered the war between Israel and Benjamin.
It is a game changer. I only saw this recently.
It is a story of the hideousness of sin. The horror of sin and its grotesque fruit.
No story so sad as this one.
Her husband cut her into 12 pieces. She was raped and molested till she died.
So sad that they threw her on the front yard and she crawled to the front door and clawed at the entrance where she died.
Then the bizarre battle that resulted and the split in the tribes.
It is the illustration on sin,and human remedy.
So,so horrible.
We need a savior folks
It is a game changer. I only saw this recently.
It is a story of the hideousness of sin. The horror of sin and its grotesque fruit.
No story so sad as this one.
Her husband cut her into 12 pieces. She was raped and molested till she died.
So sad that they threw her on the front yard and she crawled to the front door and clawed at the entrance where she died.
Then the bizarre battle that resulted and the split in the tribes.
It is the illustration on sin,and human remedy.
So,so horrible.
We need a savior folks
that why it was a gift.( righteousness)
rejecting a saviour and returning to law, is already been said. by paul, and that was to a jewish person.
you may want to take up the word usage in this verse. etc etc etc
Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
rejecting a saviour and returning to law, is already been said. by paul, and that was to a jewish person.
you may want to take up the word usage in this verse. etc etc etc
Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
We believe that God sandblasted all the rust off. And gave it a nice new paint job, even added a SEAL to it so it would never rust again.
This is an interesting illustration of different images. I see God accepting me as a rusty, beaten up car, not making me into something else straight away. It is learning to accept where I am that matters, and working together to work out what I should be and what I can be.
I never thought of this progression, everything neat and tidy. This illustration demonstrates very much peoples ideas of what God does. The trouble is this is obviously not the case and learning to walk, choosing to follow and obey is the start.
I have always stood amazed that people think it is anything else. Maybe people have never discipled someone, but there are no illusions when you do, and growth is very much about learning, being faithful and obedient.
What stuns me is God does make us into something very different than we expect, because before we met Jesus we were always ill, partially functioning and wounded deeply. Walking in faith and love seriously changes everything, from the ground up. But if you have never had this in your life, ofcourse this is rubbish, because to admit this should be there is admitting what you have is not what the Lord desires. But dear reader I know so many echo what I am sharing, that is simply enough, Praise the Lord.
This is an interesting illustration of different images. I see God accepting me as a rusty, beaten up car, not making me into something else straight away. It is learning to accept where I am that matters, and working together to work out what I should be and what I can be.
I never thought of this progression, everything neat and tidy. This illustration demonstrates very much peoples ideas of what God does. The trouble is this is obviously not the case and learning to walk, choosing to follow and obey is the start.
I have always stood amazed that people think it is anything else. Maybe people have never discipled someone, but there are no illusions when you do, and growth is very much about learning, being faithful and obedient.
What stuns me is God does make us into something very different than we expect, because before we met Jesus we were always ill, partially functioning and wounded deeply. Walking in faith and love seriously changes everything, from the ground up. But if you have never had this in your life, ofcourse this is rubbish, because to admit this should be there is admitting what you have is not what the Lord desires. But dear reader I know so many echo what I am sharing, that is simply enough, Praise the Lord.
may be thats your problem.
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.Romans 7: Released from the Law
your choice , in what you see.
son or car. etc
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.Romans 7: Released from the Law
your choice , in what you see.
son or car. etc
A rusty car is just a car in trouble. The illustration has been missed. In the Lord we are saying the Lord still loves us as we are. And as we are we do not need to sin. We do not need to become something else to walk in purity and righteousness.
In sanctification we are not rebuilt back to a previous position, but to a child of God, to a new place we were never at before.
Now the hyper-legalists believe their definition of perfection is Gods definition. Look at David, Samson, John the Baptist, Isaiah, Moses. None of these guys fits my ideas of perfection or even acceptability, but then I am not God. Take the apostles, Peter, head strong, Paul, dogmatic, argumentative. Yet these people are called Gods people, holy, righteous, Gods delight.
Now the reward for sharing Gods revelation I am called a legalist, when nothing I have shared has said this. Obedience is about seeing what is obviously right and doing it. Only blind people say doing what is right is evil or legalism, because they do not see it is sin, destruction and death.
This is no idle dispute or the words describing me neutrally. If you think I have made a mistake please show me.
I council about getting real and looking at your own life. I testify to what I know, what I have seen in other peoples lives and what scripture declares. If you say you know the Lord, then tell me my error. Where is my sin? What have I got wrong?
In sanctification we are not rebuilt back to a previous position, but to a child of God, to a new place we were never at before.
Now the hyper-legalists believe their definition of perfection is Gods definition. Look at David, Samson, John the Baptist, Isaiah, Moses. None of these guys fits my ideas of perfection or even acceptability, but then I am not God. Take the apostles, Peter, head strong, Paul, dogmatic, argumentative. Yet these people are called Gods people, holy, righteous, Gods delight.
Now the reward for sharing Gods revelation I am called a legalist, when nothing I have shared has said this. Obedience is about seeing what is obviously right and doing it. Only blind people say doing what is right is evil or legalism, because they do not see it is sin, destruction and death.
This is no idle dispute or the words describing me neutrally. If you think I have made a mistake please show me.
I council about getting real and looking at your own life. I testify to what I know, what I have seen in other peoples lives and what scripture declares. If you say you know the Lord, then tell me my error. Where is my sin? What have I got wrong?
Jesus said "If you want to be perfect, sell all you have and give it to the poor and come and follow me."
Now this could mean following Jesus is perfection. It could also mean follow Jesus leads to perfection.
It could also be thought of following Jesus is the perfect way to go. Being in heaven with the Lord is perfection.
The reason why the would perfect has a problem is it is only bounded or limited by the speaker when the subject to which it is applied is described. So a perfect walk, could be meaning in beauty, in length, in emotional conversation etc.
So when people say this is how I see God means perfection, we have to be careful.
God has said "By Holy as I am Holy"
This is about dealing with our hearts, being honest, truthful inside and outside.
But how many people are willing to talk about their inner life, their inner realities?
I suspect not many, because Holiness is ok if imputed, but inside, not a chance. Really? Is that what the cross means, only acknowledgement that Christ was Holy, but not His people. Do you see how this jars with Paul and Peters letters.
If you met a Holy pure person would you know? So many believe because of their own struggles this does not occur in others. This is condemnation of others based on ones own experience. This is always dangerous. It is satan and his accusations that continually condemn everyone, rather than encouraging the people of God onto Holiness.
But the call you hear from people is Holiness is a pipe dream, impossible. I call that pure unbelief in the cross and the power of the Holy Spirit.
Now this could mean following Jesus is perfection. It could also mean follow Jesus leads to perfection.
It could also be thought of following Jesus is the perfect way to go. Being in heaven with the Lord is perfection.
The reason why the would perfect has a problem is it is only bounded or limited by the speaker when the subject to which it is applied is described. So a perfect walk, could be meaning in beauty, in length, in emotional conversation etc.
So when people say this is how I see God means perfection, we have to be careful.
God has said "By Holy as I am Holy"
This is about dealing with our hearts, being honest, truthful inside and outside.
But how many people are willing to talk about their inner life, their inner realities?
I suspect not many, because Holiness is ok if imputed, but inside, not a chance. Really? Is that what the cross means, only acknowledgement that Christ was Holy, but not His people. Do you see how this jars with Paul and Peters letters.
If you met a Holy pure person would you know? So many believe because of their own struggles this does not occur in others. This is condemnation of others based on ones own experience. This is always dangerous. It is satan and his accusations that continually condemn everyone, rather than encouraging the people of God onto Holiness.
But the call you hear from people is Holiness is a pipe dream, impossible. I call that pure unbelief in the cross and the power of the Holy Spirit.
E
So God paints you slowly?
It would suck if you died before the paint job was completed. You would never make it. No rusted vehicles will get into heaven.
And really, What is different between your example of putting a picture of a car. or new smaller car. and what you just said you believe God. to me there was no difference between the two.. As I said early, a paint job, but the rust is left behind, and always shows through
No, that is a part of the Bible, which I uphold. Don't take Scripture out of context, put it 'in my mouth', and then try to argue your position using it.
Christ is the end of the Law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4). Romans, Galatians, Hebrews and Colossians all testify that the Law has no power over us who believe in Christ as Saviour. Our righteousness is in Christ, which far exceeds that of the Pharisees. If you rely on the Law, I guarantee yours doesn't measure up.
Christ is the end of the Law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4). Romans, Galatians, Hebrews and Colossians all testify that the Law has no power over us who believe in Christ as Saviour. Our righteousness is in Christ, which far exceeds that of the Pharisees. If you rely on the Law, I guarantee yours doesn't measure up.
Yeah.. all these passages are about not how someone receives eternal life but what someone is doing with THE faith.
Sanctification verses.. not justification verses.
Eternal salvation.. justified by Jesus once off, permanent. Sanctification.. on going daily walk.
Faith toward Jesus-- happens after being justified. This may mean consistent reliance on Jesus.. but does not always.
Faith from Christ to save us.. does happen at being justified.. and doesn't depend on our reliance on Jesus.
Don't know if you agree with this.. but you know there are too many verses about being given eternal life that aren't about daily exercise of service.
Sanctification verses.. not justification verses.
Eternal salvation.. justified by Jesus once off, permanent. Sanctification.. on going daily walk.
Faith toward Jesus-- happens after being justified. This may mean consistent reliance on Jesus.. but does not always.
Faith from Christ to save us.. does happen at being justified.. and doesn't depend on our reliance on Jesus.
Don't know if you agree with this.. but you know there are too many verses about being given eternal life that aren't about daily exercise of service.
I am seperating the faith Christ has in justifying someone and ongoing daily faith.
When someone is acknowledging they are a dirty rotten and sinner and need saving.. that's a once off act. That is the point of eternal life being given by Jesus who justifies.
From this.. there WILL be fruit from being saved. That's the result of the Holy Spirit sealing someone's spirit and indwelling them.
What happens though after salvation with commitment to turn from sin from the believer.. that's THE faith.. DAILY faith.. not the act of receiving eternal life.
over.
When someone is acknowledging they are a dirty rotten and sinner and need saving.. that's a once off act. That is the point of eternal life being given by Jesus who justifies.
From this.. there WILL be fruit from being saved. That's the result of the Holy Spirit sealing someone's spirit and indwelling them.
What happens though after salvation with commitment to turn from sin from the believer.. that's THE faith.. DAILY faith.. not the act of receiving eternal life.
over.
God comes and makes a new car around us and in us. He takes away the failure, the hurt, and we become something different. But it starts with repentance and obedience.
Now those who have unbelief think of themselves as something solid, that needs rebuilding or putting right. God takes us to a different place, a total upgrade, a new birth where the old is merely the starting place. At the end nothing of the old remains, it is like the husk of a seed. But you have to follow. It has to be through your experience and following that you become something new.
It is why the lie is say do nothing, do not even think there is a response. It will just happen.
Your Lord if you listen to Him says follow, if you obey my commands you are my friends.
I cannot say why those who struggled to conform to standards without an emotional heart response did this, but their failure is not a denial of Jesus's word, just testimony to they did not know Jesus.
When Jesus spoke to my heart as a child, I knew the power of His words but not the why. Now I understand the why.
You are an emotional being, with an interlect. You are hurt, wounded, defended, suspicious. If I share words about love you look at them as if I am lying because you have been betrayed by these words before. But listen and know the betrayal is from people and not God. Jesus died to show you, you are loved. I know how deep this betrayal felt in my own heart. I could not trust anyone. I was so shut down. But the gospel is Jesus will never shut you down and it is the well spring of life.
Now those who have unbelief think of themselves as something solid, that needs rebuilding or putting right. God takes us to a different place, a total upgrade, a new birth where the old is merely the starting place. At the end nothing of the old remains, it is like the husk of a seed. But you have to follow. It has to be through your experience and following that you become something new.
It is why the lie is say do nothing, do not even think there is a response. It will just happen.
Your Lord if you listen to Him says follow, if you obey my commands you are my friends.
I cannot say why those who struggled to conform to standards without an emotional heart response did this, but their failure is not a denial of Jesus's word, just testimony to they did not know Jesus.
When Jesus spoke to my heart as a child, I knew the power of His words but not the why. Now I understand the why.
You are an emotional being, with an interlect. You are hurt, wounded, defended, suspicious. If I share words about love you look at them as if I am lying because you have been betrayed by these words before. But listen and know the betrayal is from people and not God. Jesus died to show you, you are loved. I know how deep this betrayal felt in my own heart. I could not trust anyone. I was so shut down. But the gospel is Jesus will never shut you down and it is the well spring of life.
I am addressing the idea we are static. God is building His people, making something new out of what was before.
It has struck me in the conversations here, we deny the Lords ultimate work and what He achieves in us.
Emotional feelings often define what we think we are and what has happened. So it is possible to take that which God has made pure, holy, righteous and call it failed, lost and empty. It is the place we so easily go to, not because it is real but because that is how the world works.
So how we look at ourselves, what we call sin, what we call our issues, failures, what we call Gods work in our lives matters. So many want to turn that which is upright, good, holy, pure, into something to be evil and worthy of judgement.
Now this is not the Holy Spirit driving these ideas or bringing condemnation. It is disappointed legalists, self confessed who now feel their legalism was driven by religion, and they wish to purge the world of religion. God has always been about bringing love, understanding and purity into peoples hearts, and only then will they be able to see the truth.
It has struck me in the conversations here, we deny the Lords ultimate work and what He achieves in us.
Emotional feelings often define what we think we are and what has happened. So it is possible to take that which God has made pure, holy, righteous and call it failed, lost and empty. It is the place we so easily go to, not because it is real but because that is how the world works.
So how we look at ourselves, what we call sin, what we call our issues, failures, what we call Gods work in our lives matters. So many want to turn that which is upright, good, holy, pure, into something to be evil and worthy of judgement.
Now this is not the Holy Spirit driving these ideas or bringing condemnation. It is disappointed legalists, self confessed who now feel their legalism was driven by religion, and they wish to purge the world of religion. God has always been about bringing love, understanding and purity into peoples hearts, and only then will they be able to see the truth.
Obviously a truth that applies to everyone, not just 'sinners'.
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now you say, ‘We see,’ therefore your sin remains. John 9:41
Because you are saying, “I am rich, and have become rich, and I have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, Revelation 3:17
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now you say, ‘We see,’ therefore your sin remains. John 9:41
Because you are saying, “I am rich, and have become rich, and I have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, Revelation 3:17
E
No it starts with humility, Which leads to repentance. Which leads to faith. Which leads to having your car made new from the inside out. (being saved from the wrecking ball, or hell) Which leads to obedience.
Anytime you add obedience as a pre-requisite, You teach and follow a legalistic rules based Gospel of works.
Anytime you add obedience as a pre-requisite, You teach and follow a legalistic rules based Gospel of works.