The Gap vs. New Creationism Propaganda
- Thread starter DP
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
the scale of the universe and the speed of light is actually a very difficult argument to countermand. light travels at a finite, identifiable rate, and there is no evidence or theoretical reason to suggest that this speed has has significantly changed at any time. the existence of interstellar media and/or gravitational effects would only slow it down, arguing for exactly the opposite effect that a ~ 6,000 year old universe would need to be present.
the concept is very simple: light takes 10,000 years to travel a distance of 10,000 lyrs. heavenly bodies exist that have been measured by a variety of means to be located at such distances from earth ((and greater)). their light can be seen from earth. that light must then have taken on the order of 10,000 years to reach the earth, therefore the universe must be at least this old.
there are basically only two rebuttals:
(1) that for completely inexplicable and unknown reasons, some 5 to 6,000 years ago light traveled exponentially faster than it does now. there are two problems with this 'explanation' -- one, that there is no sound cosmological theory that would explain this; it's not really very different from attributing anything not very well understood to 'ancient aliens.' two, that if this were really true, then there should be observable astronomical evidence of it, which there isn't. not that i'm aware of. of course, if anyone knows of a sound line of reasoning ((i.e. not just 'um, dark energy, so..' but some actual theory)) or of actual observational data that corroborates that explanation, please do point me at it.
(2) that God created the universe complete with fully-formed galaxies right in the middle of colliding with each other and stars right in the middle of their life cycles and already at the ends of their life cycles etc. etc. and also with light rays already at just the right places travelling at just the right speeds so that from earth, we would observe them and it would look like the universe is several billion years old, when it's really not very old at all.
the problem with this is the one Tanakh pointed out already: that this makes God a big fat liar, creating a universe that is purpose-built to deceive us when we look closely at it. i personally really don't get how people can swallow the idea that God has designed a universe with the express purpose of appearing to be something it is not, but a whole lot of people believe exactly that and don't have any problem with it. maybe i'm nuts or too picky, i dunno. for sure God is able to do this -- what is impossible for Him? but why? does that fit God's character??
so i don't know about your comment there, Bladerunner. if you have an "easy" fix that doesn't fall into one of those two categories, please share it.
the concept is very simple: light takes 10,000 years to travel a distance of 10,000 lyrs. heavenly bodies exist that have been measured by a variety of means to be located at such distances from earth ((and greater)). their light can be seen from earth. that light must then have taken on the order of 10,000 years to reach the earth, therefore the universe must be at least this old.
there are basically only two rebuttals:
(1) that for completely inexplicable and unknown reasons, some 5 to 6,000 years ago light traveled exponentially faster than it does now. there are two problems with this 'explanation' -- one, that there is no sound cosmological theory that would explain this; it's not really very different from attributing anything not very well understood to 'ancient aliens.' two, that if this were really true, then there should be observable astronomical evidence of it, which there isn't. not that i'm aware of. of course, if anyone knows of a sound line of reasoning ((i.e. not just 'um, dark energy, so..' but some actual theory)) or of actual observational data that corroborates that explanation, please do point me at it.
(2) that God created the universe complete with fully-formed galaxies right in the middle of colliding with each other and stars right in the middle of their life cycles and already at the ends of their life cycles etc. etc. and also with light rays already at just the right places travelling at just the right speeds so that from earth, we would observe them and it would look like the universe is several billion years old, when it's really not very old at all.
the problem with this is the one Tanakh pointed out already: that this makes God a big fat liar, creating a universe that is purpose-built to deceive us when we look closely at it. i personally really don't get how people can swallow the idea that God has designed a universe with the express purpose of appearing to be something it is not, but a whole lot of people believe exactly that and don't have any problem with it. maybe i'm nuts or too picky, i dunno. for sure God is able to do this -- what is impossible for Him? but why? does that fit God's character??
so i don't know about your comment there, Bladerunner. if you have an "easy" fix that doesn't fall into one of those two categories, please share it.
I didn't miss it, I responded to it in like fashion, because what you said really didn't make much sense:
Dino's post #3:
"Does that mean that belief in still-living dinosaurs is an intrinsic part of the YEC viewpoint? Not at all. However, such a belief is consistent with a YE view, and with scientific data. If you want to promote an interpretation, do it on its own merits, not at the expense of another view. I'd guess you've been listening to too much political rhetoric and too little sound debate."
That in bold is saying that a belief in still-living dinosaurs is consistent with scientific data, when it is definitely not. I assure you, Jurassic Park would be a reality today if that were true. That is such an outrageous idea outside the realm of scientific fact that a sane man would naturally think those who think the dinosaurs are still with us today suffer mental illusions.
Dino's post #3:
"Does that mean that belief in still-living dinosaurs is an intrinsic part of the YEC viewpoint? Not at all. However, such a belief is consistent with a YE view, and with scientific data. If you want to promote an interpretation, do it on its own merits, not at the expense of another view. I'd guess you've been listening to too much political rhetoric and too little sound debate."
That in bold is saying that a belief in still-living dinosaurs is consistent with scientific data, when it is definitely not. I assure you, Jurassic Park would be a reality today if that were true. That is such an outrageous idea outside the realm of scientific fact that a sane man would naturally think those who think the dinosaurs are still with us today suffer mental illusions.
So when was it that Satan first rebelled against God then?
It wasn't in the time of Adam and Eve, for he had already fallen and stood as Tempter against Adam and Eve. What leads to understanding about the Gap idea is NOT man's scientific theories. It's led to by what God's Word shows us happened in another time before Adam and Eve when Satan first rebelled against God, for God said He created Satan originally perfect in his ways, and then later Satan drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. When was that per the Bible chronology?
When you stay in God's Word, that is when and how the Gap idea in Genesis 1 starts to become a clue, not from evolution theory, not from Darwin, not from man's scientific theories at all, but from God's Holy Writ.
Likewise with the scattering of the ten lost tribes of Israel, many refuse to believe that God scattered them to the west where they had a major part in becoming the western Christian nations, yet there's Bible prophecy of what would become of them, like in the Genesis 35 & 48 prophecies about Jacob's seed becoming a "company of nations" and "multitude of nations" that Ephraim was to become. Pointers are in God's Word that don't need man's science to figure out; likewise with the Gap idea.
It wasn't in the time of Adam and Eve, for he had already fallen and stood as Tempter against Adam and Eve. What leads to understanding about the Gap idea is NOT man's scientific theories. It's led to by what God's Word shows us happened in another time before Adam and Eve when Satan first rebelled against God, for God said He created Satan originally perfect in his ways, and then later Satan drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. When was that per the Bible chronology?
When you stay in God's Word, that is when and how the Gap idea in Genesis 1 starts to become a clue, not from evolution theory, not from Darwin, not from man's scientific theories at all, but from God's Holy Writ.
Likewise with the scattering of the ten lost tribes of Israel, many refuse to believe that God scattered them to the west where they had a major part in becoming the western Christian nations, yet there's Bible prophecy of what would become of them, like in the Genesis 35 & 48 prophecies about Jacob's seed becoming a "company of nations" and "multitude of nations" that Ephraim was to become. Pointers are in God's Word that don't need man's science to figure out; likewise with the Gap idea.
The first and primary evidence of a valid idea is directly from God's Word, with at least 2 Bible witnesses. Does Genesis 1 reveal an original perfect creation, and then it going to waste and destroyed, with God then doing a replenishing? I say yes. When the actual Scripture is following line upon line, that is what God's Word is pointing to:
Gen 1:1-9
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Reading this verse 1 the first time suggests that is a summary statement, with the details to follow in the next verses. It's natural to want to think that. But because of the conjunction "And" at Gen.1:2, it means a continuation of events with verse 1 not simply acting as a summary, but as a first act. The phrase "In the beginning" does not have the article in Hebrew; it's simply, "In beginning" meaning an indefinite point in time (likewise in John 1).
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Reading this next verse would also suggest that it's about the earth having not been created just yet, but in a state of nothingness, like a nebula floating in outer space. That's what that translation "without form, and void" suggests. However, per Hebrew tohuw va bohuw, "without form, and void" is not the only way to translate that. Hebrew tohuw can point to something that was once in a good condition going into a bad or waste condition. This is how tohuw is used in many Old Testament Scriptures. Using the Strong's, this can be translated as the earth became 'a waste and an undistinguishable ruin'.
In other words, the earth was created good at Gen.1:1, but at Gen.1:2 something happened to make the earth go into a bad condition (tohuw, a waste). In Isaiah 45, God said He did not create the earth "in vain", which is this Hebrew word tohuw ("without form").
It means God did not create the earth in a nothingness vapor state. He spoke, and His creation came into existence.
The other thing about this verse 2 is the mention of the "face of the deep" and "face of the waters", which "the deep" is referred to in other Scripture about waters upon the earth (Gen.8:2; Job 38:30; Job 41:31; Ps.104:6), which this verse is pointing to the later waters upon the earth mentioned in the next verses below.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
God's placing of the sun and moon doesn't happen until verse 14, so I believe this is pointing to a Heavenly separation between His Light and Satan's darkness.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
This is about those "face of the waters" and "the deep" back at Gen.1:2. These waters are not simply floating liquid masses in outerspace. These waters are covering an already created earth underneath. A firmament means a sky. God is forming the sky atmosphere around the earth by pulling up part of the flood waters overspread upon the surface of the earth.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
KJV
Our cloud atmosphere above the earth is made up of air (and other gases) and moisture vapor. God pulled up part of the waters on the earth to make this sky, and He left the rest of the waters upon the earth still covering it.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
God then gathers all the waters left upon the earth's surface, and moves those waters to make the dry land appear. The earth was already there underneath those waters. He is not creating earth here; He already created the earth back at Gen.1:1.
Thus even the 1611 KJV flow shows the earth had already been created at Gen.1:1, and the moving of the waters upon the earth later was to reveal a pre-existing earth already there underneath.
Gen 1:1-9
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Reading this verse 1 the first time suggests that is a summary statement, with the details to follow in the next verses. It's natural to want to think that. But because of the conjunction "And" at Gen.1:2, it means a continuation of events with verse 1 not simply acting as a summary, but as a first act. The phrase "In the beginning" does not have the article in Hebrew; it's simply, "In beginning" meaning an indefinite point in time (likewise in John 1).
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Reading this next verse would also suggest that it's about the earth having not been created just yet, but in a state of nothingness, like a nebula floating in outer space. That's what that translation "without form, and void" suggests. However, per Hebrew tohuw va bohuw, "without form, and void" is not the only way to translate that. Hebrew tohuw can point to something that was once in a good condition going into a bad or waste condition. This is how tohuw is used in many Old Testament Scriptures. Using the Strong's, this can be translated as the earth became 'a waste and an undistinguishable ruin'.
In other words, the earth was created good at Gen.1:1, but at Gen.1:2 something happened to make the earth go into a bad condition (tohuw, a waste). In Isaiah 45, God said He did not create the earth "in vain", which is this Hebrew word tohuw ("without form").
It means God did not create the earth in a nothingness vapor state. He spoke, and His creation came into existence.
The other thing about this verse 2 is the mention of the "face of the deep" and "face of the waters", which "the deep" is referred to in other Scripture about waters upon the earth (Gen.8:2; Job 38:30; Job 41:31; Ps.104:6), which this verse is pointing to the later waters upon the earth mentioned in the next verses below.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
God's placing of the sun and moon doesn't happen until verse 14, so I believe this is pointing to a Heavenly separation between His Light and Satan's darkness.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
This is about those "face of the waters" and "the deep" back at Gen.1:2. These waters are not simply floating liquid masses in outerspace. These waters are covering an already created earth underneath. A firmament means a sky. God is forming the sky atmosphere around the earth by pulling up part of the flood waters overspread upon the surface of the earth.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
KJV
Our cloud atmosphere above the earth is made up of air (and other gases) and moisture vapor. God pulled up part of the waters on the earth to make this sky, and He left the rest of the waters upon the earth still covering it.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
God then gathers all the waters left upon the earth's surface, and moves those waters to make the dry land appear. The earth was already there underneath those waters. He is not creating earth here; He already created the earth back at Gen.1:1.
Thus even the 1611 KJV flow shows the earth had already been created at Gen.1:1, and the moving of the waters upon the earth later was to reveal a pre-existing earth already there underneath.
Apostle Paul also shows us there was a time of old when God placed His creation in an imperfect state of bondage. The creation seeks a release from that bondage. That shows there was once a perfect original creation that was not in that bondage.
Rom 8:18-25
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Paul is referring to the future glory of the world to come.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
This word for "creature" in the Greek means 'creation'. It's the same word translated to "creation" further down in the Rom.8 Chapter. Read, "...the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,
The creation was made subject to vanity, not by its own will, but by God Who subjected it in hope? In hope of what? In hope of a better state, a state NOT subject to vanity! The creation today seeks a release from the state of vanity God placed it in.
WHEN... did God make the creation "subject to vanity"? In Genesis 1:2 forward, not during Adam and Eve's time, nor after Noah's day.
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
The creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption state God placed it in for this present world. We are NOT enjoying a perfect creation today. God did not originally create His creation the way it is today in that state of bondage. And His creation knows it, as it seeks a release, just like our souls also await the future world to come.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV
The idea of "vanity" Paul used there is the equivalent to the Hebrew tohuw va bohuw ("without form, and void") of Gen.1:2.
Rom 8:18-25
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Paul is referring to the future glory of the world to come.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
This word for "creature" in the Greek means 'creation'. It's the same word translated to "creation" further down in the Rom.8 Chapter. Read, "...the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,
The creation was made subject to vanity, not by its own will, but by God Who subjected it in hope? In hope of what? In hope of a better state, a state NOT subject to vanity! The creation today seeks a release from the state of vanity God placed it in.
WHEN... did God make the creation "subject to vanity"? In Genesis 1:2 forward, not during Adam and Eve's time, nor after Noah's day.
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
The creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption state God placed it in for this present world. We are NOT enjoying a perfect creation today. God did not originally create His creation the way it is today in that state of bondage. And His creation knows it, as it seeks a release, just like our souls also await the future world to come.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV
The idea of "vanity" Paul used there is the equivalent to the Hebrew tohuw va bohuw ("without form, and void") of Gen.1:2.
Jer 4:27-28
27 For thus hath the LORD said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it."
KJV
Is God only talking about the small area on earth at Jerusalem/Judea in that, or is He pointing to the whole earth? He is pointing to the whole earth, for that is what Paul was talking about in Romans 8 when God placed His original perfect creation into a state of vanity, in bondage to corruption. That's why He says there, "... yet will I not make a full end." And "For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black."
The idea of the heavens above being black has to do with waters in the clouds, making the clouds turn dark. When God moved part of the waters upon the earth to create today's cloud atmosphere around the earth, He left holes in the sky. These holes allow the sun to bead down upon the waters on the earth, evaporating moisture back up into the sky, while heating the land to create hot air rising while cold air from on high drops, both mixing to cause the violent storms of today.
Today's storms and tempests upon the earth seem like us a natural phenomena of how God made His creation, but this is pointing to a time when that did not occur upon the earth. In Revelation we are told in the world to come there will be no more sea. That means the 70% of waters that are covering today's earth are going somewhere. Where do you think that might be?
27 For thus hath the LORD said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it."
KJV
Is God only talking about the small area on earth at Jerusalem/Judea in that, or is He pointing to the whole earth? He is pointing to the whole earth, for that is what Paul was talking about in Romans 8 when God placed His original perfect creation into a state of vanity, in bondage to corruption. That's why He says there, "... yet will I not make a full end." And "For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black."
The idea of the heavens above being black has to do with waters in the clouds, making the clouds turn dark. When God moved part of the waters upon the earth to create today's cloud atmosphere around the earth, He left holes in the sky. These holes allow the sun to bead down upon the waters on the earth, evaporating moisture back up into the sky, while heating the land to create hot air rising while cold air from on high drops, both mixing to cause the violent storms of today.
Today's storms and tempests upon the earth seem like us a natural phenomena of how God made His creation, but this is pointing to a time when that did not occur upon the earth. In Revelation we are told in the world to come there will be no more sea. That means the 70% of waters that are covering today's earth are going somewhere. Where do you think that might be?
Here's a revealing about Satan in the world of old, before he rebelled against God:
Ezek 28:1-19
:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
You will discover from later verses here that God is giving a parable about Satan within this. He addresses the prince and king of Tyrus (Tyre), a pagan king who was over the rock island of Tyre, an ancient island fortress that existed off the coast of Lebanon. Alexander the Great was given to conquer it, but he couldn't do from the sea. It had double walls 150 feet high around it. Alexander had his men pile up dirt to form a land bridge out to it, which is how he attacked and conquered it, thus fulfilling God's promise to destroy Tyre and make it a place for fishermen casting their nets.
The word Tyrus means 'rock'. It's an appropriate nickname for Satan too, as in Deut.31 God calls him a little "rock" since Satan sinned in wanting to be GOD, The ROCK, and our ROCK. You will also notice Satan has both titles of a prince, and a king, in God's Word.
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
The flesh prince of Tyrus wiser than Daniel? I don't think so. But would Satan be wiser than Daniel? Yes.
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Ah, that does suggest God is actually referring to Satan, and not only to the prince and king of Tyrus as types. The original first sin was Satan coveting God's Throne for himself, wanting to be The GOD. All other pagan kings of history follow that pattern as types.
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before Him That slayeth thee, "I am God?" but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of Him That slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Remember Satan transforms himself as an angel of light (2 Cor.11). His title of Lucifer refers to his brightness. God says to him, "Will you say to Me Who will slay you, "I am God"?" That's Satan who first said he is GOD. Our Heavenly Father is going to show him he is "a man, and no God". Satan also has the image of man, as all the angels do.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
This should become very plain God is speaking a parable about Satan himself. God created Satan the full pattern in His Image, perfect in beauty and full of wisdom.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
You know for sure now God is talking about Satan, for no flesh king or prince has ever been in "Eden the garden of God". But Satan has been there, and that's who this is about. Satan before he fell was covered in all these precious stones at God's Altar.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
A cherub is a Heavenly created being, not a flesh being. That is what Satan is, a cherub. God originally created him perfect in his ways, following and serving God at His Altar. That idea of covereth is about his duty as a covering cherub to guard God's Throne. Satan eventually coveted God's Throne which caused this present world and why our Lord Jesus was sent to die upon the cross for those who believe.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
KJV
Did you notice God already has pronounced His judgment upon him? God has not done that for any flesh born man yet, which is still another way to know He is referring to Satan here.
God has promised to turn Satan to ashes while he is upon the earth in sight of all that behold him. Do you know what that's about? That's about Satan being booted down to this earth in the last days, with his being locked in the pit when Jesus comes, and then his final destruction on earth after the 1,000 years of Rev.20. It's suggesting the "lake of fire" will be on earth in that time.
Ezek 28:1-19
:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
You will discover from later verses here that God is giving a parable about Satan within this. He addresses the prince and king of Tyrus (Tyre), a pagan king who was over the rock island of Tyre, an ancient island fortress that existed off the coast of Lebanon. Alexander the Great was given to conquer it, but he couldn't do from the sea. It had double walls 150 feet high around it. Alexander had his men pile up dirt to form a land bridge out to it, which is how he attacked and conquered it, thus fulfilling God's promise to destroy Tyre and make it a place for fishermen casting their nets.
The word Tyrus means 'rock'. It's an appropriate nickname for Satan too, as in Deut.31 God calls him a little "rock" since Satan sinned in wanting to be GOD, The ROCK, and our ROCK. You will also notice Satan has both titles of a prince, and a king, in God's Word.
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
The flesh prince of Tyrus wiser than Daniel? I don't think so. But would Satan be wiser than Daniel? Yes.
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Ah, that does suggest God is actually referring to Satan, and not only to the prince and king of Tyrus as types. The original first sin was Satan coveting God's Throne for himself, wanting to be The GOD. All other pagan kings of history follow that pattern as types.
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before Him That slayeth thee, "I am God?" but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of Him That slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Remember Satan transforms himself as an angel of light (2 Cor.11). His title of Lucifer refers to his brightness. God says to him, "Will you say to Me Who will slay you, "I am God"?" That's Satan who first said he is GOD. Our Heavenly Father is going to show him he is "a man, and no God". Satan also has the image of man, as all the angels do.
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
This should become very plain God is speaking a parable about Satan himself. God created Satan the full pattern in His Image, perfect in beauty and full of wisdom.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
You know for sure now God is talking about Satan, for no flesh king or prince has ever been in "Eden the garden of God". But Satan has been there, and that's who this is about. Satan before he fell was covered in all these precious stones at God's Altar.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
A cherub is a Heavenly created being, not a flesh being. That is what Satan is, a cherub. God originally created him perfect in his ways, following and serving God at His Altar. That idea of covereth is about his duty as a covering cherub to guard God's Throne. Satan eventually coveted God's Throne which caused this present world and why our Lord Jesus was sent to die upon the cross for those who believe.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
KJV
Did you notice God already has pronounced His judgment upon him? God has not done that for any flesh born man yet, which is still another way to know He is referring to Satan here.
God has promised to turn Satan to ashes while he is upon the earth in sight of all that behold him. Do you know what that's about? That's about Satan being booted down to this earth in the last days, with his being locked in the pit when Jesus comes, and then his final destruction on earth after the 1,000 years of Rev.20. It's suggesting the "lake of fire" will be on earth in that time.
Another ad hominem attack. Just answer the question. If you are unable to answer, just admit it. Don't obfuscate the issue with one fallacy after another.
The curse on the land was spoken after Adam's sin. That is the 'fall' to which I refer. A logical and reasonable conclusion is that the devil fell first.
The curse on the land was spoken after Adam's sin. That is the 'fall' to which I refer. A logical and reasonable conclusion is that the devil fell first.
that dude didn't "develop" gravitational time dilation; that's part of Einstein's relativity theory.
from the point of view of an outside observer, time passes more slowly near a large mass, and more quickly the farther you get away from it. it's the whole synchronized-clocks, one an on airplane and another on the ground, becoming unsynchronized thing. it's not just theory, either, this has been well-established by experiment.
but here's the issue: the "cap" is still c. you get really far away from an enormous mass, and the speed of light gets closer and closer to c. i already mentioned this: gravitational effects are pushing the equation in the wrong direction if you want to argue a very young universe. this effect would mean that in the early universe, if mass were more concentrated and starlight was being 'pulled backwards' by mass, it would mean the universe is actually older than it appears, not millions of times younger. it would mean that distant starlight appears younger than it really is.
it doesn't mean that light traveled a couple billion times faster 5,000 years ago than it does now ((because that is the scale we're looking at to make this work)) -- it means that it should have traveled slower in a more dense universe, before the stretching out of the universe.
i already knew this. that's what i pointed out in the post you quoted.
G
Exactly. And based upon the Character and nature of God............He did something about it. Which Brings in mankind. We are here to resolve it(that fall.)
Which kingdom? Gods or satans? We choose God, we put another nail in satans coffin. A lower creation being witness's FOR Christ and against satan.
1 Tim 5:21~~New American Standard Bible
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
Which kingdom? Gods or satans? We choose God, we put another nail in satans coffin. A lower creation being witness's FOR Christ and against satan.
1 Tim 5:21~~New American Standard Bible
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.